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#2017560 - 01/19/13 10:10 PM Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens
woodfab Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 367
Loc: Stoneham, MA
Here's what I'm thinking.
I'm cleaning up this 1932 Kimball.
I repaired the sound board cracks, removed old finish and fixed veneer then 8 coats of lacquer. I cleaned and painted the plate and put a new pin block. Now I'm playing around with the action.
Cleaned key-frame, new felt, key-tops, hammers and shanks.

Now I'm thinking I should learn how to clean, lube, and regulate the wippens.

Well the whippens are 82 years old and look their age.

I have a set of Steinway whippens that are only 6 years old.

It appears that all the contact points line up the same as the Kimball ones.

Has anyone done this and what problems will I have?
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Dan (Piano Tinkerer)

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#2017613 - 01/20/13 12:40 AM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: Michigan
Can't tell from your photo . . .

Does the capstan contact point (wippen heel) line up at the same time as the jack toes line up and the flange rail centerpin?

What about the screw hole of the wippen flange? Is it the same offset from the centerpin?

Also, how are you going to make the flange fit the rail? You can't change the brass flange onto the S&S wippen.
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Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#2017622 - 01/20/13 01:06 AM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]
rysowers Offline
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Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2401
Loc: Olympia, WA
The Steinway wippen has the advantage of the butterfly spring which is supposed to be faster for repetition. That wippen is way more than 6 years old though! Like Keith says - that brass flange seems like it would be the major stumbling block. You can always try a sample and see if you can get it to work. Anytime you change parts on a piano you need to try samples first.


Edited by rysowers (01/20/13 01:07 AM)
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#2017624 - 01/20/13 01:27 AM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]
beethoven986 Offline
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Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3320
Why can't you just rebuild the original whippens? It'll be good for you!
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#2017657 - 01/20/13 03:37 AM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]
Dave B Offline
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Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1940
Loc: Philadelphia area
It looks like the Kimball whippen has a completely different flange set up. The Kimball might not have enough room for the rest felt on the Steinway whippens. And the area of the upper repetition lever that contacts the drop regulating screw looks different.

I don't think it's going to fit, but let us know.

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#2017760 - 01/20/13 10:38 AM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]
Ed Foote Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1121
Loc: Tennessee
Greetings
Just pin one of them up and install it, It will tell you what is going to work or not. You should be very well versed in the difference that the spread makes, and how your intersecting arcs are relating to one another.
Regards,

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#2017947 - 01/20/13 05:10 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: Ed Foote]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
Greetings
Just pin one of them up and install it,


Huh?? Did you see the photo?
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Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#2017958 - 01/20/13 05:42 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7423
Loc: France
Even if it seem to work on one note it is very difficult to be sure that the touch will be good.

Also as it have been said there is no space for the rest cushion, even the pinning seem to be a differnt type.

The idea to put "Steinway parts" is sort of myth I found sometime with hammer heads. rarely appropriate in the end BTW

The capstan also have to be inclined for those whippens (seem to me)
Those are old Steinway whippens, possibly German, while I dont reclal having seen that red cloth around the rest cushion, may be on some older ones but I have my doubts.

What dimension is the jack ?


Edited by Kamin (01/20/13 05:43 PM)
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#2017964 - 01/20/13 06:05 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: Olek]
jim ialeggio Offline
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Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 621
Loc: shirley, MA
Its a no-hope-er. The flange setup is reversed from the S&S. It looks more like a hammer shank flange setup than a standard whip flange setup.

Chickering whips have the same set up to accomodate the brass flange.

Did this Kimball have brass flanges?

Jim Ialeggio
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#2017968 - 01/20/13 06:16 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: kpembrook]
woodfab Offline
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Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 367
Loc: Stoneham, MA
I put one in to see what problems I would run into.
I would modify or remake the whippen rail.
I actually have a second action for this piano so if it doesn't work out it's won't be a problem.
And looks like I would have to raise the let-off rail.




Edited by woodfab (01/20/13 06:23 PM)
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#2017987 - 01/20/13 06:55 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: Michigan
Based on your latest photos, it kinda looks like it might work. You will want either to use thinner let-off buttons or move the let-off rail. Dunno if you can move it in the right direction . . .

If you are just doing this as an educational project, I don't see why not. The shanks/flanges are also prime suspects for replacement . . .
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Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#2017991 - 01/20/13 07:03 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7423
Loc: France
not with those capstans
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#2018004 - 01/20/13 07:34 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: Olek]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Kamin
not with those capstans

Why do you say that? The capstan marks line up in the first photo. The only problem I can see is the jack tender (toe).

It is true that there is no photo that actually shows the capstan under the new wippen heel . . .
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Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#2018007 - 01/20/13 07:47 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: kpembrook]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 621
Loc: shirley, MA
My bad...looks like you could get it going after a fashion, doesn't it...

Still curious, and can't see from the pic, what the old flange looks like.

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2018028 - 01/20/13 08:13 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: jim ialeggio]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
My bad...looks like you could get it going after a fashion, doesn't it...

Still curious, and can't see from the pic, what the old flange looks like.

Jim Ialeggio


I think it's a Billings brass flange.
I do wonder how well the flange is mated to the rail, though. If there's flex in the flange because the S&S profile doesn't contact the rail properly, there could be instability over time.

I think "after a fashion" covers it . ..
Clearly not the approach most of us would take, but for someone learning for fun . . .
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#2018032 - 01/20/13 08:30 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: jim ialeggio]
woodfab Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 367
Loc: Stoneham, MA
I'm pretty sure I can get everything to line up.
I would mold the shape of the whippen-rail to accommodate the whippen flange properly.
I have a new set of hammers and shanks which I'll have to re-adjust the back-checks.
I raised the let-off rail 1/16" with a washer which seems to work.



Edited by woodfab (01/20/13 08:33 PM)
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Dan (Piano Tinkerer)

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#2018058 - 01/20/13 09:51 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: Michigan
But molding the wippen rail will also bring the wippen foward. Moving it a little (like 1/32") can have some impact on the leverage. You could relocate the action back on the keyframe the same amount if you have enough space at the keyslip to accommodate moving the whole action/keyframe forward the same amount to maintain hammer strike.

The let-off rail doesn't move up. It moves up and forward. Is that OK?

If you are going to play with this stuff, you have to be aware of everything that is happening and a bit picky.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#2018074 - 01/20/13 11:16 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]
woodfab Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 367
Loc: Stoneham, MA
OK I molded the rail and the mounting holes are slotted in order to move it back or forth.
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Dan (Piano Tinkerer)

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#2018078 - 01/20/13 11:38 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: Michigan
OK, the slotted rail is another possibility. Just keep in mind that moving the wippen rail is not the same as moving the entire action stack over the capstans.

It may help you out with the jack toe to regulating button alignment, though . . .

But the molded profile still doesn't seem to match the unique S&S profile.


Edited by kpembrook (01/21/13 01:19 AM)
Edit Reason: meant "capstan" instead of "wippen"
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#2018103 - 01/21/13 12:45 AM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2401
Loc: Olympia, WA
The fact still remains: Those are very old wippens, not the 6 year old wippens the OP thought they were. If your going to change the wippens, at least think about using some new ones. All that labor to install old parts. But a new set will set you back a pretty good chunk of change, so I guess I can sympathize, especially if this is just your own piano and you are wanting to experiment.
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Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#2018113 - 01/21/13 01:23 AM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21394
Loc: Oakland
This is an interesting project, and you are certainly doing it well. Have fun!

Incidentally, the original action was probably made by Pratt Read.
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Semipro Tech

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#2018122 - 01/21/13 01:44 AM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: kpembrook]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5226
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
OK, the slotted rail is another possibility. Just keep in mind that moving the wippen rail is not the same as moving the entire action stack over the capstans.

It may help you out with the jack toe to regulating button alignment, though . . .

But the molded profile still doesn't seem to match the unique S&S profile.

Doesn't really have to. As long as the flange sits solid and square.

I'd like to see a small lip along the bottom of the rail for the flange to seat against but so far this all looks pretty good.

ddf
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#2018132 - 01/21/13 01:55 AM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: rysowers]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5226
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: rysowers
The fact still remains: Those are very old wippens, not the 6 year old wippens the OP thought they were. If your going to change the wippens, at least think about using some new ones. All that labor to install old parts. But a new set will set you back a pretty good chunk of change, so I guess I can sympathize, especially if this is just your own piano and you are wanting to experiment.

They may well be but why should their age matter? This is a one-off project and he seems to be making everything fit quite nicely. As long as the parts are in reasonable working condition who cares how old they are?

My problem with most of these projects is that the work is done so poorly the end result is garbage and it would have been garbage even if the finest new parts in the world had been used. But from the pictures I've seen so far the work in this project is being done in a nice, innovative and workmanlike manner. I can't see that the age of the parts will make any difference in the end.

ddf
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Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
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#2018143 - 01/21/13 02:24 AM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3546
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
How can we know how old these whippens are anyway? If somebody had put graphite on some parts causing some staining, and they had been used a bit, couldn't they be 6 years old and look this way? Unless there is some design feature that alerts you to their age. The one pictured doesn't look worn out.

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#2018230 - 01/21/13 08:55 AM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7423
Loc: France
What I said is that when the angle of the capstan is the point of contact with then whippen, the cloth is soon compressed and used, and the action is noisy.
(and that with the classical capstans, which are more rouinded than the ones I see on the picture.

So a new positionig of the capstans is probably welcome.(with an angle, unless those whippens heel are not angled but it does not seem to be the case.)

Nice shaping of the rail BTW (even if not so precise, you always can paper the flanges)




Edited by Kamin (01/21/13 08:56 AM)
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2018323 - 01/21/13 11:16 AM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: Olek]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5226
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Kamin
What I said is that when the angle of the capstan is the point of contact with then whippen, the cloth is soon compressed and used, and the action is noisy.
(and that with the classical capstans, which are more rouinded than the ones I see on the picture.

So a new positionig of the capstans is probably welcome.(with an angle, unless those whippens heel are not angled but it does not seem to be the case.)

I don't see the problem. Kimball capstans were always installed square to the keys. The Steinway wippen shown has a square capstan block. I don't see the capstan-to-wippen alignment being a problem. It's going to be approximately the same as the original.

I question just how big a deal this might be anyway. After all, NY Steinways for several decades were built with angled capstans driving wippens with square capstan blocks.

ddf
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#2018477 - 01/21/13 03:28 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7423
Loc: France
Del that is the later case I have experimented (I thought on the pic that the whippen heel was angled)

WIth angled capstan/straight whippen, the force is on a smaller part of the cloth, it compress and the action get noisy.

I used that once as it allowed to arrange the leverage, the whippen attack angle being longer)
I traded back to original rebuild whippens after 3 years of professional playing.



I did not new the NY STeinway where using straight whippens on angled capstans for some time, and cannot understand the reason

At which years / era ?

BTW if the whippen have square "block" (whippen heel ?) it is a German one at last after 1930 - (I have no precise date for the trade to vertical capstan but seem to me before WWII if someone have some more precise date I would appreciate it)


Edited by Kamin (01/21/13 03:33 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2018514 - 01/21/13 04:58 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]
woodfab Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 367
Loc: Stoneham, MA
Thanks for the replies.

At this point I'm curious to see it I can get this to work half way decent.

I picked up the the set of whippens and hammers for $75 and they're in nice condition.

I have all the whippens mounted and the next step is to shim and align them.


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Dan (Piano Tinkerer)

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#2018530 - 01/21/13 05:40 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Those capstans look to be right out at the end of the threaded stem.
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2018534 - 01/21/13 05:47 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]
woodfab Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 367
Loc: Stoneham, MA
Hello Dan, Actually I haven't adjusted the capstans at all. That's how they where with the original whippens.
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