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#2020491 - 01/24/13 03:42 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Nigeth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 108
Dollar prices are always without VAT/sales tax!

Euro prices always include VAT/sales tax of the respective country.

$1850 might be Eur 1400 but this doesn't include tax. Including tax (I used 19%) the suggested retail price is Eur 1650 maybe higher if the EU has import taxes/duties on musical instruments.

The MSRP of the MP10 is Eur 2350 in the EU. So the VPC is about Eur 700 less for the same slightly improved action but nothing else.

You might get this for street price of Eur 1400, which makes it somewhat of a bargain if your looking for exactly that.

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#2020495 - 01/24/13 03:44 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Providence]
HisKidd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 198
Loc: AL/USA
Quote:

Hi HisKidd,
You are approaching this from the angle of someone who already owns a DP with a premium kawai action (MP6). Think of all of those who are looking for a board purely to control VST instruments but could not justify paying the premium for the extra bells and whistles the MP10 had. Have prayers not been answered?


Providence your point is well made, and; if I were in the situation you are describing, yes I'd spring for the latest action on the VPC. I suppose my great disappointment is that this board does not include the software for which it is advertising: "approved touch curve." The teasers stated: "Finally, a virtual piano controller that plays out of the box." I made the mistake of reading more into that than I should have. If I were starting all over again, I suppose the combination of the VST software and the EP3 would provide a great virtual piano, gigging friendly setup, at approximately the same price point as the new VPC. It's my belief that all Kawai digitals have great keyboard action.
_________________________
Keyboards are the best therapy I know of...
______________________________________________
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DCM CX-17 Monitors
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#2020502 - 01/24/13 03:52 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
For all those expecting GF action; I understood it would add considerably to the size and weight of this instrument. RM3 with the addition of the third sensor is therefore a logical step. Of course this will somehow trickle down (up) in the MP10 successor , which now becomes one of the few Kawai's that still misses the 3rd sensor. For the rest it's a nice board and certainly interesting for all of us who can do without the Kawai build-in sounds, but want a very good action in a nice no-nonsense design .

However, in the end it all very much depends on the street price how competitive the VPC is - I wonder what it will cost in Europe !

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#2020505 - 01/24/13 03:54 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kos Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/29/11
Posts: 77
I wonder if Kawai will be selling a matching stand as an accessory...
_________________________
"There is nothing to piano playing besides producing the appropriate velocities on the appropriate keys at the appropriate time" (c) qvfarns

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#2020506 - 01/24/13 03:56 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: HisKidd]
Providence Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/10
Posts: 138
Originally Posted By: HisKidd
Quote:

Hi HisKidd,
You are approaching this from the angle of someone who already owns a DP with a premium kawai action (MP6). Think of all of those who are looking for a board purely to control VST instruments but could not justify paying the premium for the extra bells and whistles the MP10 had. Have prayers not been answered?


Providence your point is well made, and; if I were in the situation you are describing, yes I'd spring for the latest action on the VPC. I suppose my great disappointment is that this board does not include the software for which it is advertising: "approved touch curve." The teasers stated: "Finally, a virtual piano controller that plays out of the box." I made the mistake of reading more into that than I should have. If I were starting all over again, I suppose the combination of the VST software and the EP3 would provide a great virtual piano, gigging friendly setup, at approximately the same price point as the new VPC. It's my belief that all Kawai digitals have great keyboard action.

Hi HisKidd,
I understand your disappointment based on expectations. I guess all I was really hoping for was a reliable alternative to the Numa Nero which I read many mixed reviews about. Also, I personally really like the RM3 Grand action so this controller is what I have been waiting for. If I had the MP6 I would not buy the VPC....

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#2020525 - 01/24/13 04:18 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: thercman]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2469
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: thercman
I think that is filling a much needed niche. RM3-II action in a controller! That's sweet for home/studio use IMO.

This! At the right price.

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#2020536 - 01/24/13 04:23 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Deffie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/10
Posts: 173
As an MP10 owner I have no real interest in this, but I would say that if this was an option when I got my MP10 I would have thought long and hard about it and might very well have gone with the VPC.

I think it fills its niche quite nicely, it's a piano controller with an excellent Kawai action for those who will only use software pianos and don't want to spend $600 or so on the MP10's built-in sounds.
_________________________
Playing since April 2010.
Kawai MP10

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#2020538 - 01/24/13 04:24 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: floydthebarber71]
Amaruk Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/02/11
Posts: 813
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: floydthebarber71

Cool concept, and always impressed more and more with the way Kawai seem to be pushing tech compared to competitors.


Not sure I understand. I think all competitors are pushing the tech forward, just in different ways. In this particular case with the VPC1, I would like to give kudos to Kawai for bringing out a piano that is more about what customers have been asking for rather than pushing the pianos to the next level. I am a huge Roland fan myself but that does not mean I am looking down at Kawai and/or Yamaha. In fact, I like the Kawai wooden actions and Yamaha NU-1 is an amazing instrument.



Edited by Amaruk (01/24/13 04:26 PM)
_________________________
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#2020547 - 01/24/13 04:30 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Deffie]
Providence Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/10
Posts: 138
Originally Posted By: Deffie
As an MP10 owner I have no real interest in this, but I would say that if this was an option when I got my MP10 I would have thought long and hard about it and might very well have gone with the VPC.

I think it fills its niche quite nicely, it's a piano controller with an excellent Kawai action for those who will only use software pianos and don't want to spend $600 or so on the MP10's built-in sounds.

+1

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#2020548 - 01/24/13 04:31 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Aeons Holle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/01/12
Posts: 55
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
While there may be some disappointment about the VPC not including the software libraries for which it now only got the approved touch curves, I imagine the outrage would be much greater if it actually did, and the price would be even higher.
Because all those people who already owned any amount of the software packages surely would not want to pay twice for it, just to get the controller.

Just look at the True Keys thread, several people are only interested in individual pianos of the suite and don't want to pay the bundle price for other pianos they might not use (which for sure is a reasonable desire). Now imagine people would be forced to buy four whole software libraries which they might already own, or of which they might just want to own one, or even none.
So to me it only makes sense for Kawai to sell the controller alone, and the addition of touch curves is a nice bonus.
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#2020559 - 01/24/13 04:41 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
origen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 88
Loc: New Hampshire
I like this a lot but there are 3 things that hurt it for me
1. no mod pitch control, this would have been quite inexpensive to add and really is a deal-killer, having to have another machine, more wires, another stand just for a wheel is a bit silly.
2. the rounded top, I know this sounds a bit trite, but you really can't put anything on top of it, no laptop, iPad, or midi board.
3. Price, it is a bit steep, i was expecting 1400-1500usd, it's really just the action that your paying for along with its midi capabilities
Now 3 things that I love
1. Its classy, no way around it, this is a sexy looking controller
2. Tri sensor, this is a great addition for Kawai and going forward puts them at the tops for sure
3. The action, for me there is nothing better out there other than the gf, but I wasn't expecting that, so the rm3 grand II wooden still blows all other controllers clean off the planet
Unfortunately this namm is a massive letdown but this is the one shining spot for me, but I cant spend 2k on a controller that doesn't control any articulations, the mod wheel really is a deal killer, and I dont think I'm alone on this one. I sincerely would've bought it today and at that price if it had this. No question.
_________________________
RD700NX, Komplete 8, NI Maschine

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#2020561 - 01/24/13 04:44 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3703
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Not to be too negative, because I think this is a product addressing a real need, but I'm disappointed that it doesn't have a mod-wheel/joystick. I mean, it's not like you are only ever going to use it for pianos. It would have been so easy to include. Unfortunately it might be a deal breaker for some.

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#2020575 - 01/24/13 05:05 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: ando]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3101
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: ando
Not to be too negative, because I think this is a product addressing a real need, but I'm disappointed that it doesn't have a mod-wheel/joystick. I mean, it's not like you are only ever going to use it for pianos. It would have been so easy to include. Unfortunately it might be a deal breaker for some.

I wonder whether the concept was to make something that exuded a piano vibe - and nothing else. It's almost like it was designed to keep synths, and everything else away from it (although why it didn't include a place for a laptop to be safely anchored is beyond me, since it can do nothing without a computer.

It is nice (and shiny) but I suspect most people were expecting a little more.
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
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#2020589 - 01/24/13 05:19 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: voxpops]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3703
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Originally Posted By: ando
Not to be too negative, because I think this is a product addressing a real need, but I'm disappointed that it doesn't have a mod-wheel/joystick. I mean, it's not like you are only ever going to use it for pianos. It would have been so easy to include. Unfortunately it might be a deal breaker for some.

I wonder whether the concept was to make something that exuded a piano vibe - and nothing else. It's almost like it was designed to keep synths, and everything else away from it (although why it didn't include a place for a laptop to be safely anchored is beyond me, since it can do nothing without a computer.

It is nice (and shiny) but I suspect most people were expecting a little more.


It's quite bizarre to me to omit those two things. I would have thought a nice big flat surface, preferably rubberized, to hold valuable laptops, ipads, modules etc would have been essential.

The modwheel/joystick thing is a no-brainer. People use them for all sort of instrument sounds. The only thing it isn't used for is piano. Why be so narrow in target piano? It doesn't make sense and I suspect this oversight/snub will ultimately kill the longterm future of such a controller. To sell these things, they need to be ultra-versatile.

Shiny, ebony surfaces have no place in a studio or live gig - they will be scuffed into oblivion in no time. It's a good start, but they needed to consult with more real musicians, I feel.

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#2020603 - 01/24/13 05:35 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Providence Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/10
Posts: 138
Why would you want a mod wheel on a piano controller?

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#2020609 - 01/24/13 05:41 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Providence]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3703
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Providence
Why would you want a mod wheel on a piano controller?


Sigh...did you even read the posts above? The point is it doesn't have to be exclusively for piano. It could have been used for any sound. Use your imagination.

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#2020612 - 01/24/13 05:46 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: ando]
Providence Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/10
Posts: 138
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: Providence
Why would you want a mod wheel on a piano controller?


Sigh...did you even read the posts above? The point is it doesn't have to be exclusively for piano. It could have been used for any sound. Use your imagination.

Hi Ando,
My point is its not been marketed as such hence the name. For pure piano playing you would have absolutely no need for a mod wheel...

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#2020620 - 01/24/13 05:52 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3101
Loc: Oregon
It's clearly targeted at (virtual) piano purists, who play at home or possibly in establishments that need something aesthetically pleasing. Whether the market is big enough for this, only time will tell. I'm still not sure where you're supposed to place your screen, but at least there's very little built-in obsolescence in this board (in fact there's very little built-in anything!).
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

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#2020623 - 01/24/13 05:56 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: voxpops]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4363
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: voxpops
... although why it didn't include a place for a laptop to be safely anchored is beyond me, since it can do nothing without a computer.

That teetering laptop promo pic makes me cringe - what were the style guys thinking? I suppose to them we're just magpies looking to line our nests with shiny objects.
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#2020625 - 01/24/13 05:57 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Providence]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3703
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Providence
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: Providence
Why would you want a mod wheel on a piano controller?


Sigh...did you even read the posts above? The point is it doesn't have to be exclusively for piano. It could have been used for any sound. Use your imagination.

Hi Ando,
My point is its not been marketed as such hence the name. For pure piano playing you would have absolutely no need for a mod wheel...


Yes, but that was also mentioned above. Why make it so strictly targeted for piano? It would have been so easy to throw a simple joystick on the side and still sell its benefits as a piano controller. These kinds of limited ways of thinking are frequently death sentences for new products. It doesn't matter how devoted Kawai is to the concept of a pure piano controller, people want more versatility in studios. Mark my words, this shortcoming will be commented upon time and time again in threads like this one. There's just no reason for them to be so narrow about this. You can be unobtrusive with such devices, but they should still be there when it's essentially a MIDI device that can be connected to any sound generator you like. A lot of electric pianos need a mod controller to do certain things. Are we to take from that that Kawai thinks this controller is only for acoustic pianos, not electric pianos? Talk about narrow! Crazy, if you ask me.

If you want proof of how this will affect sales of this unit: I would have considered it if it had had a mod wheel/joystick. There is another poster above who also called it a "deal killer". Are we that unique? I don't think so. There will be plenty of people like us, and that means lost sales for Kawai in a product category that is low volume already. I just think they missed a golden opportunity to make a brilliant product, simply because they like to stick to a purist approach about being a piano company.

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#2020627 - 01/24/13 06:00 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3101
Loc: Oregon
Yes, if the designers had had their oatmeal that morning they might have come up with a hidden mod-wheel section, perhaps built into a revolving end plate or secreted under a flap.
_________________________
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http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

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#2020632 - 01/24/13 06:13 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: voxpops]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Yes, if the designers had had their oatmeal that morning they might have come up with a hidden mod-wheel section, perhaps built into a revolving end plate or secreted under a flap.


Yes, that could perhaps have been a workable compromise for everyone. Personally, I have no use whatsoever for pitch-bend/modulation because I'm only interested in piano. Generally, I find the joystick things visually hideous and they ruin the clean, uncluttered lines of things and destroy symmetry. But then I've been cursed with an eye for details like that - I really wish I didn't care about stuff like that.

I think the upfront links to software manufacturers and PianoTeq is quite a bold move for a conservative manufacturer like Kawai - no one seems to be giving credit for that. I think the thing (VPC) looks great from what I can see in the pictures.

An action equivalent to, or presumably better than, the MP10 for several hundred less in a package that looks very classy and tasteful and addresses what many piano players want (great action dedicated to controlling software) is surely to be welcomed? It will be perfect for pro and home studios and only needs to be bought once - much more future proof than a stand-alone DP.

I totally get the comments about the flat-top (or lack of) but generally I'm a bit mystified by the scale of the negative response to the launch of the VPC.

The basics are there; it is what many people have been asking for.

Just my thoughts,

Steve
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Yamaha CP1

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#2020641 - 01/24/13 06:25 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: EssBrace]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3703
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: EssBrace

I totally get the comments about the flat-top (or lack of) but generally I'm a bit mystified by the scale of the negative response to the launch of the VPC.

The basics are there; it is what many people have been asking for.

Just my thoughts,

Steve


I agree, Steve, the basics are there. For me it's a case of so close, but not quite. I was seriously considering this product, but I really want a one controller solution. It's a pity because they almost got it there for me. I still hope it does well for Kawai though because I want them to be rewarded for responding to a need. And who knows, maybe it will lead to a general controller in the future.

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#2020647 - 01/24/13 06:43 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Yes, I think it is their toe in the water...if the details mean that it fails to hit the spot for enough people then I can't see them following through with further iterations of the idea, which would be a shame because many of us have been crying out for a great action minus sounds. Time will tell...
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#2020651 - 01/24/13 06:48 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: voxpops]
kurtie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/10
Posts: 210
Hi,

It's finally more or less what I was expecting it to be, and more or less at the price I was guessing Kawai was going to price it to: that is, the price of MP10 less something.

If I was going to replace my aging MP5 that I got 3 years ago, that I mainly use as for piano playing, I would seriously consider this thing and its action. It has not got knobs and wheels, but they can be got in another small device if needed. In my case, I rarely use them... but from time to time are useful. As for the sounds, I don't use the MP5 internal sounds anymore, so wouldn't miss that for sure.

Regards,
Kurt.-

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#2020657 - 01/24/13 06:55 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: ando]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3101
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: ando
For me it's a case of so close, but not quite.

This is how I feel about Kawai products generally. They get so close to the ideal, and then allow one or two things to get in the way (usually marketing-related).

But that's why I'm really hoping they do succeed because they have the talent to create stunning products. Yamaha, by contrast, seems almost weary of innovation in their electronic products.

There is a lot to recommend such a sleek and simple piano controller as the VPC, but I do hope they haven't narrowed the market for this to such a thin slice that it quietly disappears without further development - time will tell.

As a side note, I do think that expectations were built to almost fever pitch. Clever marketing, certainly, but in a competitive marketplace you need to exceed expectations, not create a sense of deflation, however slight.
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#2020660 - 01/24/13 07:00 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3445
Between the weight and the need for the computer, I see it more as a home board than a gigging board. In a home studio, no matter how good the weighted 88 is, if I'm playing synth, I also want an unweighted board, and that's where I care about having pitch and mod wheels. So actually, no, I wouldn't miss them on the VPC at all.

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#2020663 - 01/24/13 07:10 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: EssBrace]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4363
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
I totally get the comments about the flat-top (or lack of) but generally I'm a bit mystified by the scale of the negative response to the launch of the VPC.

They're pretty much pushing you into the arms of a 3rd party for sounds, which will almost certainly and quite noticeably outclass anything they have to offer. To me it signals that Kawai is giving up on quality internal sound generation, which I find depressing. Given this should be their bread and butter, this industry has an exceedingly bizarre aversion to good sound.

That aside, perhaps they should have made two controller models: one in polished black with their best triple sensor wooden key action, and another one their best lightweight action in a durable case for gigging (with controller wheels). This thing weighs too much to schlep, isn't their best action, and has a nonsensical form factor, so I kind of don't get who the target audience is - people who hate the MP10 internal sounds? Is that an audience they should actively court?
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#2020672 - 01/24/13 07:28 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Amaruk Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/02/11
Posts: 813
Loc: New England, USA
Steve,
I also think this piano is very future proof. That is a good thing... and bad. The only thing you need to update is the software pianos... not good for Kawai. But perhaps Kawai is working on that now then...and will integrate it in VPC2 which will feature a HD, CPU, and run on Linux? NAMM 2014? smile
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#2020694 - 01/24/13 08:16 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: dewster]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3445
Originally Posted By: dewster
They're pretty much pushing you into the arms of a 3rd party for sounds, which will almost certainly and quite noticeably outclass anything they have to offer. To me it signals that Kawai is giving up on quality internal sound generation

I think of it more as a recognition that they can't currently give a computer owner as good as sound as Ivory for its $300 premium over their current products. And that there is a market for people who choose to go with computer pianos, and so there is money to be made in making a product for them.

Originally Posted By: dewster
That aside, perhaps they should have made two controller models

If it sells well, I would bet on there being derivative products.

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