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I think it's implicit that the left hand continues in the same style, with slurs, even though they're not written out. I'm looking at this score, labelled First Edition at IMSLP.


Turns start on the note above. Also, remember the key signature: it's Bb, not B. So the turn is D C Bb C.

I'm going to have to check the position of the turn in the Henle edition I have - in others I remember the turn is immediately after the C so it would start on the C.

As for the key signature - now we get into one of those differences between the scores. Some versions have marked the score with the "chromatic turn" marking to make it clear that it is C#,C,B,C.

My Henle edition doesn't have it marked but that's what I've heard played and I think there's some commentary in the Henle about it too.

Chopin Nocturne in E flat, Op. 9 No. 2

I would interpret Chopin's intention as continuing. It's quite important in M25 and M29, for example.

This is not the waltz style of um-ching-ching but a smoother dum da-di, dum da-di etc.

Correct if you intend Db not D natural but no, I mean playing it loud or like an express train. It's a cantilena. I play it no faster than I would sing the whole second phrase to something like 'ToDAY is gonna be the DAY of ALL days'.

Excellent, 'cause I won't be doing that and yes, the exercise should strengthen your reading.

How are you tackling this, Andy? Are you taking it one section at a time either sequentially or difficult bits first, working on the whole thing each day or something else? Have you broken it into sections? Has your teacher passed on any relevant gems?

My first approach to this would be to play the whole thing through, HS, once or twice a week identifying trouble spots. I'd work a little each day on those difficulties then play through M1-8, HS & HT, with particular attention on M1-4 where I'll be working first, then settle down to work on M1-4 one phrase at a time HS and HT.

The difficulties.
M2. The turn, if it's still a problem. Certainly played slowly it isn't so play it slowly and wait for it to feel natural.

M7/M15/M23. The trill; I accelerate through this rather than keep a steady speed. Chopin's trills start on the principal note courtesy of Johann Nepomuk Hummel and his 1825 treatise, Complete Theoretical and Practical Course. Chopin had a very high regard for Hummel - as did most people at the time.

M12/M20. Just a slow steady play through those chords, HS, to get them familiar by the time I start work on M8-12.

M16. The fioritura isn't difficult, HS, but you might want to familiarise yourself with it.

M24. This one is only difficult if you don't do much Bach. You might try some scale work using just 3-4-5 if you're not used to this.

M26. The turn here is difficult if you can't make the octave with 2 and 5. I use 2-3-2-1-2-5, which is easy but you may need to do 1-4-3-2-1-5, as M2, but this is more awkward with the thumb on a black key and will require more practise. Just a couple of slow reps each day should be enough by the time you get to this section.

M30-31. I use another upper mordent here for the trill as in M5 and M13. What does your teacher recommend, Andy? In my copy the F is before the ottava and the E after it making it look like a difficult leap when reading quickly. You might pencil in the F an octave lower as a reminder or you can just learn it. The octaves aren't difficult if you're looking but your left hand is also engaged in leaps so this really has to be played blindfold. Remember the old adage, look before you leap, and take a healthy glance at the target before you make the leaps. The last two leaps from Eb to F and F to C are the only tricky ones. The G to D in the second beat isn't much and the Eb to Eb is a simple interchange of thumb on fifth finger - that's putting the thumb where the fifth finger is/was, don't contract the hand here. If you memorise this you'll find that on looking down you have quite enough time to see all you need to see and it isn't really that difficult as when you're following the score.

M32. A slow run through this trill each day will make it easy by the time you get to this section. I put the accent on the B (Cb) not the C natural and it makes counting easier if you're going to count the repetitions. Rubinstein puts the weight on the C.

M18. HT. The 4 vs 3 I covered in my earlier post.

M29. HT. This is 8 vs 3 and I missed it last time. This is one of those places, so typical of Chopin, where an exact mathematical division doesn't work so well as it loses the careful phrasing, a four note group then a three note group. This is best learnt HS then just put the hands together at tempo.

Just a couple of slow plays through these bits each day should prepare them quite nicely by the time you get to the relevant sections.

More on M1-4.
I would take each of these four measures individually for the first couple of days. There's no point putting the brain in overflow before it can chunk the information. After sufficient repetitons I might finish each with a slow play through the four bars as one unit from the score as long as I was confident of accuracy.

I play the turn in M2 slower than the turn in the first episode of Für Elise. Is the fingering marked in Henle? I play 1-4-3-2-1-5.

The third phrase has a little slur between the G and D. It's very subtle. This line is akin to the difference between 'And IF you believe me' and the more correct 'And IF you-ou leave me'.

Watch the slurs in M4. This isn't one line as in 'you know that it is only make believe' but three as in 'come back! You know you want to. Say you do.' Please excuse the lyrics. It the point that's important.

[cross-posted. This was in reply to Andy Platt's post.]

Oh interesting. In this score ("Richard Johnson edition") the turn is after the C, and marked with a flat above and a natural sign below, meaning that it's as you say, C then turn (in this score the chromatic version): Db-C-B-C. AIUI in this case there are so many variants in Chopin scores that a good critical edition such as your Henle is very helpful and the "first edition" that I first linked to is not necessarily at all the best source.

In the case of a turn between notes, is the first C, the original note, held a little longer than the notes of the turn? Or are all the notes played even, as a quintuplet?

Back to the LH slur marks: Looking more closely, I see that some measures have slur marks in the LH, and some measures don't. But it's not only the first measure that has the LH slur marks. So that makes me wonder if the LH slur marks, and lack of slur marks, are in fact to be closely observed. Since the sound is all tied together by the pedal though, the difference is a subtle one, having more to do with touch and volume than with actual separation of the notes as they sound.

Does your Henle edition suggest anything on this? IIRC Henle doesn't usually have performance notes, just source notes. So maybe a good study edition of this Nocturne would also be useful, if it addresses this point.

The turn is between the notes with a flat above and a natural below, so C-Db-C-B-C-C'.

ETA: Oh, my word. Here we go with the cross-posting again!

The first edition that I first linked to has the turn directly above the C, and no chromatic alterations marked. Hence my original answer. And my acknowledgement of the value of a good critical edition!

I'll check the score that Greener posted if I post further answers, since clearly this piece is built on subtleties, and there are subtle differences in the editions...

(Can I get this in quick enough to avoid another cross-posting? ).

For the moment I'm breaking it into four measure chunks, starting from the beginning. The second four measures essentially repeat the first with slight changes of which octave the bass notes are in and considerable embellishment of the theme in the right hand.

The plan is to get those 8 reasonably solid, then put that aside and tackle the second theme in measures 9-12. After that we'll see. As I said, this will be a relatively long term project for me.

Whether my teacher has any gems remains to be seen because I haven't had a lesson with her since starting it.

Ah, yes indeed, I see the b and natural marked on the turn now. Good, thing I asked about this. I was playing it wrong, but it sounded just fine and I surely would have breezed over this mistake as I became more proficient with this section. The ending double strike of the C is new to me ... but totally cool with that.



me too ... long term ... and happy to follow your lead on plan of attack, Andy.

I hadn't thought about trying to play it through in its entirety, HS, but will give it a go.

For chords, I'll release these as we go (if that's OK) as I/we begin to tackle it HT. So, may be some time in coming. But will start with up to M4 today, which is where I am up to with HT.

Double strike? It's C-Db-C-B-C then the C' an octave higher, yes?

The HS run through once or twice a week is because any measures that aren't playable HS will show up mechanical difficulties that you can pre-empt by addressing them briefly at the start or end of your normal practise session.

When you've got both hands down you can add, or replace with, a slow run through HT once or twice a week. This has the benefit of giving you an overview of the piece as a whole and an indication of what problems might lie ahead.

If you're going to be memorising the piece this will prepare you memory.

My mother pays me the lovely compliment of asking me to play for her when she goes to bed (if I'm not already practicing). And if I stop before she falls asleep she'll say "no, please continue!"

I played the Nocturne for her, slowly, and only playing the first note of each LH triplet along with the RH melody. And she said it was beautiful. So Chopin's great beautiful skill as a composer shines through even the most inexpert rendition.

The greats can be like this, I have found. It reminds me of Martha Graham's choreography. I've seen parts of Appalachian Spring danced by a dance school which was largely forgettable in their other pieces, but despite their middling level of skill, the Martha Graham choreography shone through and made that section of the recital beautiful.

I've discovered, in my Faber & Faber Piano Adventures level 4 I think, a tiny 2-page arrangement of the theme from Tschaikovsky's First Piano Concerto. And although it's clearly just the merest simplified morsel, hearing that beautiful melody, and those crashing chords, come out of my piano is thrilling in the extreme. I wonder if it would be too ridiculous to buy the full concerto score (or at least the piano part, with piano reduction for the orchestra), just to find out what the original is like. On the other hand, it might make me dissatisfied with my simplified morsel, and I would hate to lose the grand feeling that playing it gives me!

OK, no double strike. I thought by "C-Db-C-B-C-C" you meant all part of the turn before the jump up to C. But, understand now ... and will play as such.

It's a good thing I can use all 12 beats to separate the chords, or this would be a tricky business. Actually, it still is tricky and I'm not sure you are going to be so keen on some of my choices. But here goes;

M1
1 - Eb
2 - "
3 - "
4 - "
5 - Abdim
6 - "
7 - Eb
8 - "
9 - "
10 - (add maj7 bass)
11 - Eb
12 - "

M2
1 - C
2 - "
3 - C7
4 - C
5 - "
6 - C7
7 - Bbm
8 - "
9 - Bbdim
10 - F
11 - Fm
12 - "

M3
1 - Bb
2 - "
3 - Bb7
4 - G/B
5 - G
6 - G7/D
7 - Cm
8 - "
9 - "
10 - Adim7
11 - "
12 - "

M4
1 - Bb
2 - Bb(add 11)
3 - Bb11
4 - "
5 - "
6 - "
7 - "
8 - "
9 - Eb
10 - "
11 - "
12 - "

I would just like to test the waters with this, as it will be fairly heavy sledding the way I am going about it so far. I'm not putting much weight on the melody. And, will be happy not to mention all (or any) / notations.

Chopin Nocturne in Eb Op. 9 No, 2

M2 - 7 Bbm
M2 - 9 Eb7

M3 - 3 Bb7
M3 - 10 A dim 7 - yes: rootless F7 going to Bb

In M4 the added 11 is in melody so not helping lh. I'd have just gone for Bb. All the C's are unaccented.

Ignore the RH completely if this is to help your lh. The /root notation might only help on the accented notes.
Look what function the chords have on what follows.

Chopin's harmony is very imaginative in this piece. You will need to keep your wits about you. As you're only going to do this once, i.e. not every time you play it, it's worth writing down every lh note being considered before you name the chord. Some are quite skeletal.

As a preliminary exercise and as good reference material, write out the Eb scale and its seven fundamental chords. You might do the same for neighbouring keys, Ab and Bb, while you're about it and number each step.

(layout doesn't work here)
Eb F G Ab Bb C D
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Eb G Bb = Eb maj
F Ab C = F min
etc.

Chopin Nocturne in Eb Op. 9 No, 2

Of the corrections, the only one I don't get is this one.

I just see three notes Bb,Db,E natural. So if Eb7 then wouldn't it be rootless Eb7-9?

Yes, I'm totally happy with just Bb, but isn't the 11th the Eb on the 2nd and 3rd beats of LH?

Also, I'm not clear of what you mean by accented or not accented. I've been meaning to ask about this as you have mentioned accent notes before, and I'm definitely missing the boat entirely on accented notes.

In M2 I was correcting your B dim to Bb dim. I don't know where I got Eb7 from. It's not in my notes.

M4 I was thrown by your (add 11) and assumed you were adding in a melody note. My mistake. It is Bb11.

Accented notes are the first of each of the four groups of quavers; strong, weak, medium, weak. The second two quavers in each group and any other smaller note in RH are unaccented.

There are thus at least four dynamic levels in each bar; the first beat, the third beat, the second and fourth beats, then all other notes. These accents are implicit (implied by the time sig.).

Some notes carry an accent mark explicitly, e.g. the Db, F and A in M6, RH.

M4 has only three accented notes in RH, Bb, Bb' and Eb.

So the Henle edition is no help with the slurs over the chords in the left hand. I do notice (apologies if this was already discussed, I might have skipped over it) that what we have is either:

a) Staccato bass note followed by slurred chords.
b) No slurred chords

But all with pedal.


If pianists are playing those two phrasing motifs differently in performances I've heard, I can't hear it.

Chopin Nocturne in Eb Op. 9 No, 2

The chords are definitely legato. They are only slurred where the bass is marked staccato. They are not always marked staccato where they are within reach of the chords. The articulations are, along with the pedal markings covered by either the "simile" or the "come sopra" used by varying publishers.

There are measures, such as M11 and M21, where the need for legato is less and others where it is absolute e.g. M24 and M29.

I am way, way behind. 92 pages here. I don't even know how many pieces I've missed, along with possibly new information. When we're discussing a new simpler analysis thread, this comes to mind. The size of this thread is daunting.

Yes, but it is not a marathon where you need to catch up. More like a relay where you can continue on from where we are.

When we started the Moonlight Sonata Analysis last August, we followed with the Chopin Prelude no 1., then binary discussion I believe. Each time a new thread was started.

By having new threads each time, perhaps it is easier (and perhaps more comfortable) for people to join in the discussion. But, much of the theory discussed, pertains to more than just the work being analyzed. So, from that stand point it is good to have it all in a single repository (thread.)

I'm not sure what the answer is. But no one should feel shy to ask about something that may have been asked before. If it has been asked, and if I recall it, I will look it up. But all the coaches on this thread (and of course you included KS) have been very patient. I'm sure I have asked the same question (albeit perhaps in a different way) more then once. I've never been told ... "hey Greener we talked about that 5 pages ago"

Think how much harder it might have been to catch up if we'd been sprawled over myriad different threads all over the forum.

What we've done to date:

Sept 7 Clementi Sonatina Op. 36, No. 1
Sept 8 Haydn Hob xvi/8 & sonata form
sept 14 Clementi sonatina No. 2
Sept 20 Clementi sonatina no. 3
Sept 24 Clementi sonatina no. 4
Oct 1 Clementi Sonatina No. 5
Oct 3 Eb aug (maj 7), Roman numerals, minor keys, circle of fifths
Oct 11 Back to sonatinas 4 & 5 and how we headline a post with the piece name
Oct 17 What's a cadence
Oct 18 Clementi Sonatina No. 6
Nov 2 Mendelssohn Op. 102/6
Nov 7 Schubert Moment Musical Op. 94 No. 6
Nov 9 Da capo form
Dec 5 Haydn Sonata Hob xvi/50 Allegro
Dec 18 Mendelssohn Op. 102/1 & Op. 30/3
Dec 28 Haydn Sonata Hob xvi/50 Allegro - recapitulation
2013
Jan 4 Haydn Sonata Hob xvi/50 Adagio
Jan 11 Chopin Nocturne in Eb Op. 9/2

The dates should make finding things easier however you arrange your page numbers.

Ah, so that's what those thingies are. This is good to know, and one I had no idea about. Actually achieving four dynamic levels in each bar will be a stretch. But, knowing about this and striving for it, can only be a good thing.

Still having a hard time comprehending (IE. not clear on this part) the beats you are mentioning to exemplify these dynamics, however.