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#2022920 - 01/28/13 03:36 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Loc: So. California
Scep's comments raises an interesting point. One may not be able to sing non-diatonic melodies. In which case, simply determining the good or bad of a melody based on singing is going to render much of Chick Corea's work, for example, undesirable by those unable to hear it.

Things like H-W Diminished lines are not easily "sung" without practice.

Thoughts?
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#2023002 - 01/28/13 05:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 690
Loc: Leicester, UK
jazzwee, we can sing most anything. if we practice, that is. for sure, some musicians seem to be naturally better at it than others. but practice always makes better.

you might try picking a few phrases from matrix, or something like that, and learn to sing them. as you do that look to see what's easily singable (some of the lines are and some of the lines aren't). so that's an interesting study in of itself. many of CCs lines (in matrix) do have a tonal sensibility so they can be easier to sing than that you might think because they're "just" repeated collections (patterns) of intervals. which is not the same as saying they're easy to sing ...

two books (for sight singing and ear training) i strongly recommend are modus vetis ("the old way" and modus novus ("the new way"). vetis is for tonal music. novus is for not-tonal music (very freely chromatic .. very freely ... much much more freely than chick corea in matrix).

both are by lars edlund. they have very very systematic, rigorous thorough coverage.

another very good sighting sing book by robert ottman (and also recommended by stave lacy in an interview somewhere ...):

http://www.amazon.com/Music-Sight-Singing-9th-Edition/dp/0205938337/ref=dp_ob_title_bk

... i've done a lot with the the ottman and very little with the edlund. unfortunately they're all college textbooks and very expensive.

or, get a copy of the 371 4-part bach chorales[ (very VERY inexpensive. they're wonderful pieces of music - short, and excellent for improving sight reading. sing bass, tenor, alto, soprano in turn or play the bass voice and sing the alto voice and vice versa, etc. there are endless things to be learned from them, whether you work on just two chords from one chorale or a whole chorale or whatever section or segment of them you might choose.

the shortest of the chorales is in the range of 100 chords or so and many of the chorales have many more chords than that. which is to say all 371 chorales demonstrate thousands and thousands of chord connections ...

... the omnibook is full of lines worth singing.

..some people find they like one book rather than another. but even if you only work from time to time out of any them, you'll probably find it to be helpful ...

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#2023019 - 01/28/13 07:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
printer1, my comments were more related to a listener. As I work out, hopefully, non-random lines like I did in Con Alma, my ears heard things I didn't necessarily hear before. So this affected the end product.

As players, and perhaps, thinking of ourselves as artists, we imagine things in our own way. Jazz vocabulary in the bebop lingo is very different from what modern players play. In a way, it can simply be described as a "raised tension" level in Modern jazz. Perhaps we can lay the blame/credit to guys like Chick and Herbie. In many ways, KJ is still rooted in Bebop so he plays at a lesser level of harmonic tension.

I'm just making an observation about tastes in jazz in general. Usually, I equate singing to the lowest level of tension since the average listener isn't able to sing melodies in a HW-Diminished scale, WT Scale, or some of these are sounds that are not culturally familiar (Phyrgian, etc.).

Anyway, I'm just rambling here but I just thought that: What you cannot sing today doesn't necessarily set the limit to what you can sing later. In other words, some melodic constructs have to be learned (which you pretty much confirmed).

I tend to think of singing, as it relates to blowing as related not just to note choices but to phrasing, since a musical phrase is just musical speech.
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#2023024 - 01/28/13 07:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
On a different note, I just recorded Solar with a specific intent. I realize that my time, swing, articulation classify me as an amateur more than anything else. So I focused on just making sure I can play cleanly. I'd appreciate any comments along these lines.

In the meantime, I also incorporated some of my objectives of adding more colors to what I play. Again, more in line with what I wrote in my blog post about playing more out.

I recorded this at about 150bpm. A little faster and I begin to have slight articulation issues. I recorded in steps of 10bpm until I lost focus. My live gig recording was a little faster but I'm not completely focused in a gig vs. a woodshed session.


Solar
https://www.box.com/s/c5atetd69m6wxsf2zsww


EDIT -- as I neared the end, I played faster lines and I can hear a loss of focus...but not nearly as bad as before.


Edited by jazzwee (01/28/13 07:24 PM)
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#2023037 - 01/28/13 07:52 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Everything's cleaner...your phrasing, articulation of notes, choice of notes. Also the couple of times you went to doubletime or 16th notes, it was a greater contrast to the 8th notes. Your time sound's more in the pocket too. Excellent ...

I wouldn't worry about "playing out" at this juncture...that will come eventually. Good notes, melodies, clarity, good swingin' time...keep hammering away at that. Aim for a steady, clear musical flow.


Edited by Dave Ferris (01/28/13 07:58 PM)
Edit Reason: added thought
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#2023068 - 01/28/13 08:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 690
Loc: Leicester, UK
jazzwee, oh! ... in my glee at naming books and bach i misunderstood what you were saying! very sorry about that! in any case, each successive clip you post is rapidly moving in great directions! and it's obvious to hear ...

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#2023198 - 01/29/13 02:10 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Dave Ferris]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Everything's cleaner...your phrasing, articulation of notes, choice of notes. Also the couple of times you went to doubletime or 16th notes, it was a greater contrast to the 8th notes. Your time sound's more in the pocket too. Excellent ...

I wouldn't worry about "playing out" at this juncture...that will come eventually. Good notes, melodies, clarity, good swingin' time...keep hammering away at that. Aim for a steady, clear musical flow.


Thanks Dave and printer1. This is the more important challenge I think, to keep everything rhythmically perfect and it's the hardest to develop without the years of chops.

Now that I listen to it again, I'm starting to hear more imperfections so that's good. Couldn't hear it before.

I realize that even if I play simple stuff at a gig and it's in perfect time, the audience will respond. So more woodshedding on this issue.
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#2023228 - 01/29/13 03:02 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Hope I'm not boring anyone...

I played Inner Urge Again tonight. It's played a little faster here (around 200). Now it's hard playing in the pocket here because the conga lady was off time and the rhythm section was not locked in, and I'm sure I'm part of the problem too. But shockingly, I'm pretty close to nailing the head perfectly now (with those evil arpeggios) until I went really off time on the very last repeat. This was a jam, not a gig, so I think we'll do it better at an actual gig (with my regular rhythm section).

Inner Urge V4 200Bpm
https://www.box.com/s/pueqrt07adlzwgapiq5m

I should add too that we gave Con Alma a try, but it was so new to most folks that we had hard time sticking to the form. Everyone was missing the B section.


Edited by jazzwee (01/29/13 03:30 AM)
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#2023449 - 01/29/13 01:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
I was having a go at con alma today for my practice. I tried it in 3/4 and I like it.
I am playing double bass as well, but it is a bit out of tune cos I only started a few months ago.
It is a tough tune and i am a way away from being really relaxed with it.

http://www.divshare.com/download/23644332-ed9

bonus points if anyone can hear how I changed the sequence.
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#2023451 - 01/29/13 01:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
JW well done on inner urge, you are sounding much better on it. You do make it a little hard on yourself playing such tough tunes. There are so many great easier tunes to play as well ;-)
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#2023474 - 01/29/13 01:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss
I was having a go at con alma today for my practice. I tried it in 3/4 and I like it.
I am playing double bass as well, but it is a bit out of tune cos I only started a few months ago.
It is a tough tune and i am a way away from being really relaxed with it.

http://www.divshare.com/download/23644332-ed9

bonus points if anyone can hear how I changed the sequence.



Wow - so fast. Impressive! By the way, I'm hearing 6/8 since it sounds 3/4 for every chord (2 to a bar). These subdivisions works great.

Are you talking about the change of key during the solo? It's hard to hear though what you changed to without a keyboard. But I'm sure whatever key it is would be easier.
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#2023479 - 01/29/13 02:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss
JW well done on inner urge, you are sounding much better on it. You do make it a little hard on yourself playing such tough tunes. There are so many great easier tunes to play as well ;-)


Don't worry Beeboss. I play all the tunes. But I'm just posting the difficult ones here to see if I can make progress on it. I don't have a teacher right now so I have to just challenge myself.

I do have the burden of playing different tunes all time at gigs because I play in the same venues every month. So most of the stuff are the easy things that vocalists want. (Summertime, A-Train, There Will Never be Another You, etc.) So I try to add some new stuff to the mix.

And everyone can critique what I post to the fullest so I can make a practice list from it.

BTW - one of the other things I'm trying to do is play the head to Stolen Moments with block chords like Ahmad Jamal (thanks jjo for the Sheet Music). Hard as heck to play at tempo. Another technical difficulty to overcome.


Edited by jazzwee (01/29/13 02:04 PM)
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#2023480 - 01/29/13 02:04 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
I added an extra key. But you are right - for me the E major bit is the hardest.
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#2023481 - 01/29/13 02:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss
I added an extra key. But you are right - for me the E major bit is the hardest.


Which?
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#2023607 - 01/29/13 06:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
Eb
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#2023654 - 01/29/13 08:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
I like that uptempo waltz feel David. Nice solo too. Sounded like you were getting around very good to me. So did you record the bass over a 3/4 drum track and then your Yamaha ? It sounded very convincing...the drums and all.
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#2023846 - 01/30/13 05:59 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Dave Ferris]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
Thanks Dave. Yes that is how I did it, basically make my own playalongs. It only takes a few minutes so i do a new one every few days. I like those Carman drums, they are the closest i have found to playing with a real drummer.
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#2023905 - 01/30/13 08:29 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Ah yes, Kendall Kay. Great drummer and friend. He's played on 2 of my CDs. Paul has been promising straight 8th ECM grooves for years now....I wonder if he'll ever get around to it. But yes that is great you play bass AND piano !
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#2023968 - 01/30/13 10:36 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Dave Ferris]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
oh its Kendall Kay, I had assumed Paul Carman was the drummer. Anyway it is good stuff. I am going to get the 5/4 7/4 one next. I always need more practice at those.
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#2024071 - 01/30/13 02:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Yeah Paul's a very fine sax player.
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#2024117 - 01/30/13 03:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Thanks Dave. Yes that is how I did it, basically make my own playalongs. It only takes a few minutes so i do a new one every few days. I like those Carman drums, they are the closest i have found to playing with a real drummer.


BTW I used to have such difficulty following a rhythm section with such an open sound on drums and bass. And now I prefer it too. I guess it just needs a very strong sense of internal time.

Don't you get more gigs playing bass?
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#2024118 - 01/30/13 03:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: beeboss
I was having a go at con alma today for my practice. I tried it in 3/4 and I like it.
I am playing double bass as well, but it is a bit out of tune cos I only started a few months ago.
It is a tough tune and i am a way away from being really relaxed with it.

http://www.divshare.com/download/23644332-ed9

bonus points if anyone can hear how I changed the sequence.



Sounds great, Beeboss! How are the drums going, btw?
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#2024156 - 01/30/13 04:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee


Don't you get more gigs playing bass?


Sometimes I play gigs on the electric bass, but I have only been playing the double bass a few months.
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#2024162 - 01/30/13 04:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy


Sounds great, Beeboss! How are the drums going, btw?


Thanks Sceptical. Drums are going ok but my main focus is the double bass (and cello) at the moment. I am never going to be a real drummer but I am enjoying doing time exercises, these should benefit all instruments.
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#2024193 - 01/30/13 05:53 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: beeboss
I was having a go at con alma today for my practice. I tried it in 3/4 and I like it.
Nice! 3/4 is really cool and works real good.
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#2027594 - 02/05/13 05:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
dudes and dudettes . . .
go and listen to this: http://www.npr.org/2013/01/27/170099510/first-listen-wayne-shorter-without-a-net
Wayne Shorter's latest with pianist Danílo Perez, bassist John Patitucci and drummer Brian Blade.

And have a listen (or read the transcript why you listen to the album)to the interview: http://www.npr.org/2013/02/02/170882668/wayne-shorter-on-jazz-how-do-you-rehearse-the-unknown

I mean the man is only 79 . . . and he plays like a mother . . .
And the other players . . . Danílo Perez = wow!

"Jazz shouldn't have any mandates. Jazz is not supposed to be something that you're required to sound like jazz. For me, the word jazz means, I dare you. And the effort to break out of something is worth more than you getting an A in syncopation. And this music, it's dealing with the unexpected. No one really knows how to deal with the unexpected. How do you rehearse the unknown?"
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#2027711 - 02/05/13 08:56 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
Looking forward to checking out Wayne's new album. His music is always amazing, and his band have such incredible freedom. I love his philosophy as well.
Listening to Orbits now ... wow!!!
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#2027790 - 02/06/13 12:38 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
dudes and dudettes . . .
go and listen to this: http://www.npr.org/2013/01/27/170099510/first-listen-wayne-shorter-without-a-net
Wayne Shorter's latest with pianist Danílo Perez, bassist John Patitucci and drummer Brian Blade.

And have a listen (or read the transcript why you listen to the album)to the interview: http://www.npr.org/2013/02/02/170882668/wayne-shorter-on-jazz-how-do-you-rehearse-the-unknown

I mean the man is only 79 . . . and he plays like a mother . . .
And the other players . . . Danílo Perez = wow!

"Jazz shouldn't have any mandates. Jazz is not supposed to be something that you're required to sound like jazz. For me, the word jazz means, I dare you. And the effort to break out of something is worth more than you getting an A in syncopation. And this music, it's dealing with the unexpected. No one really knows how to deal with the unexpected. How do you rehearse the unknown?"


Excellent Chris! Keep posting this kind of stuff.
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#2027809 - 02/06/13 01:22 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
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Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Thank you Chris. This combo is sure modern and creative.

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#2028326 - 02/06/13 07:35 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
dudes and dudettes . . .
go and listen to this: http://www.npr.org/2013/01/27/170099510/first-listen-wayne-shorter-without-a-net
Wayne Shorter's latest with pianist Danílo Perez, bassist John Patitucci and drummer Brian Blade.


How is it that you can hear this in (where are you again? Stockholm?) and I can't hear it in Canada!?!?

I did go to a concert last year with this group though. I, er, can't say I really enjoyed as much as I thought I would. I guess I was hoping for more of 'something' and less of what I heard. Amazing players, all, but for me it bordered into the 'free jazz' territory too much. (yes, yes, I know, I don't need a lecture...haha)
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