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That's a waste of time IMO. No need working on tunes, listening to solos that I don't like; there's so much stuff that I do like, that it takes up my time and energy!

I just listened to the Beatrice by Stan Getz where they use the D maj. What Getz does with the melody is this. In the original, the melody is A G F over the E-, A7 D-. Getz just plays 3 As, so that's how he changes the melody. Kenny Barron may be hitting some chord after the D maj, but just before the G minor, but my ear isn't good enough to tell what he's doing.

No one's suggesting you spend your day with things you don't like. I mean why would you? At the same time most of us benefit by opening our world to what may not initially understand - music included. I have direct, first-hand connection to JB over a period of years and was, from that experience, trying to suggest a technique I've seen work, often profoundly and unexpectedly, for many others in a variety of musical situations. So why bother to comment on something you find as a waste of time? Why not instead try to get closer (and help us too) by commenting on what exactly is in (or isn't in) that recording of Beatrice? How 'bout a trancription - or part of one - and direct reference to what you find?

Thanks for that one Chris, I hadn't heard that before.
I was enjoying this one ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_v7eeUAeb4

It is quite possible we are listening to two different versions then. What I hear are clearly mistakes on a few notes. Everything else is fine, but the mistakes are remarkable in that they really stick out.
Here is a link to the version I'm talking about:

http://youtu.be/HxMIiTW59Co?t=2m55s

Second mistake is in the second chorus, almost an identical spot, but different mistake.

http://youtu.be/HxMIiTW59Co?t=3m23s

Could you argue that he INTENDED to remain on an Fmaj chord both times, although his left hand plays Eb as does the bassist? And then decided to play another type of Maj7 chord to compensate in the descending chords to Dm? Maybe. I'd still suggest that with further contemplation he wouldn't have played the 'E' over an Ebmaj chord, or a B over the Dm to Cm7 in the first place. I'm all for reharm, but...


I guess this is the sticking point. You've accepted the dissonances as choice, and I see them as a mistake. In your studies with him what did he say about this type of stuff? When I was studying jazz comp the guy I studied with said something to the effect 'you can play any note in any place and make it sound good if you know what you're doing.' This may be why you hear everything as golden in this solo. IMHO I think a mistake was made, then it was incorporated into the second verse as well. I mean, who would ever play Es and Bs over an Eb chord--twice! No disrespect towards JB, by the way. He's a great player.


I agree. I used to hate most Wayne Shorter tunes, and never could understand why people liked Herbie Hancock. I'm not kidding! Now I really see value in what they do. But it's only because I'm finally starting to hear where they come from, and what they are expanding from. Before it just sounded too incoherent.

I listened to Beatrice JB solo and followed the changes so I am on track instead of guessing.

JB's solo is characterized by that b9 on EbMaj7#11 followed by the 13 of the Dm7. In case you think it's a mistake -- HE DOES IT TWICE.

Since I'm a second generation JB student (my teacher studied with JB), I'm thinking this is clearly intentional. And sounds like a rhythmic displacement (chord anticipation of Dm). It's not unlike things I've been taught.

Now I'm not saying you have to like this, but to me it's a nice surprise. He toggles between the E and the B on that D-7 EbMaj7#11 progression. It's a very unique sound.

I thought earlier that this was some shift to a major chord but I guess I didn't listen closely enough.

The other thing he does is play the Gb7#11 with a #5 in the solo (but does not play a whole tone scale). Instead he kept the common tones between F-7 and Gb7#11 by doing so.

Other than that, there's really nothing too unusual about it.


EDIT - I got to listen later again but even his comping under Sam Rivers had some reharms in there.

BTW Scep -- my teacher has told me that at this level, these are NOT mistakes. If you listen to Chick Corea playing Matrix (F Blues) you will likely conclude he's making tons of mistakes since he's not playing what you expect. You might think that since he's playing faster than 250bpm and he was only 20-21 at the time.

Now considering these are the masters and my teacher himself is very particular with these types of note choices (and Beatrice is VERY SLOW), I don't buy that JB made a mistake.

Nope. It was a mistake, and I've got another reason why this is so: If it wasn't we'd be hearing other players by now trying to emulate this 'hip' reharm by now. Things that work work. Things that don't are explained away by theory about why they work 'theoretically' (to an extent) but the musical value is still questionable.

I invite anyone to provide a link to a version of Beatrice that has an E in isolation going to a B in isolation --as in not in passing notes, chromatism etc over that Eb chord. Heck, I invite anyone here to play Beatrice and include these 'hip' notes in the same place.
Or, anyone, please show me a link of Jaki doing similar reharms that are as 'out' as this one.
Believe me, I've been looking, at least on youtube, and I've found nothing like this yet.

Last question here: Am I really the only one reading this thread that finds those note choices suspect?

My opinion of one possibility:

This is not some new technique. From Tristano, Bill Evans, Bud Powell, we hear rhythmic displacement. If you anticipate a chord change by a couple of beats, you get dissonance. It's a tension raising technique and it can't be explained by trying to explain this away as EbMaj7#11b9. To me it's simple. He played out. But not in a random way.

Do you dislike anyone playing outside? Then that's ok. I like it, especially if it resolves quickly.

Did I learn this? Yes. In fact Dave Frank/printer1 talks about it in some thread in the Non-Classical forum.


Another Possibility:

He reharmed it to Eb7(b9). I was accidentally playing this as Eb7#11 for awhile in fact (because I read it incorrectly). It sounds cool actually. Not in conflict with the melody.

To say it is a mistake implies his fingers just happen to accidentally go there. That's a big difference from saying you don't like his musical choice which is fine by me.

His fingers in his RH went to some type of E chord, probably misreading the little 'b' sign in front of the 'E' for a split second. So, no, he didn't make a mistake with his fingers, but with his attention to the chord chart. It happens.
Alternatively, perhaps he thought the note choices would work, and deliberately played them, sure I can buy that. I do it all the time. Sometimes it sounds just as bad as the section I'm talking about. Deliberate choice does not make them good choices. It just makes them deliberate. 'I meant to do that' is a jazz crutch that ought to be burned, or at least acknowledged that it is an excuse.

Again, please, send me a link with this type of anticipation, or reharm, with ANY player. I'm truly curious as to why this magical sound hasn't caught my attention in all the other jazz recordings I've heard over the last few years of listening to jazz.

I don't have that particular record but perhaps he's going to a G7 b5 or even an Ab7 b9 passing chord kinda thing before the Gm7.

Regarding Beatrice and Jackie Byard's solo. Yeah I hear E/Eb rub, it's pretty obvious. But you know it doesn't bother me, simply because of the way he plays it..the phrasing, I guess the entire mood he sets up with it. For me it succeeds on an emotional level. Agreed if you look at it from a theoretical standpoint it's a big fail to quote internet speak.

But that's what so special and unique about jazz imo. Everything doesn't always have to be perfectly harmonically "correct" and put into a square box with a ribbon tied onto it for me to enjoy or if it's not my thing...at least respect what they are going after.

You know these older guys didn't come up with all the readily available info like today..."jazz instructor", books of voicings, books of scales, modes, chord scale theory, transcriptions, ability to slow something down and loop it over and over, etc, etc. In the last 20 years or so basically everything is written out and handed to you. A lot of what they developed was pure ear, emulating their influences, and/or their own inner voices telling them how to develop their own style or voice. They were playing all the time in those days. More often then not, their style developed on the bandstand and was influenced by the players they were playing with. In this recording, the way bass and drums have sort of a loose time feel in his solo further makes the harmonic rub less obtrusive for me. Perhaps if he was playing solo or with band in the box, the effect would not be as seamless as it sounds on the recording ..at least to me..

Again agree..an Eb over a obvious voiced Fmaj7 is a harmony 101 no no and more then likely would garner looks today of--hey wtf are you doin' there ?!

It might have just been JB was in a mood to try something different for the effect after playing this song 5 nights a week. And of course he could have been given the music in the studio.. Again in any case, the way he shaped the phrase and the overall vibe of that solo for me succeeds in spite of the little harmonic rub.

sceptical*****guy ...

you said:
What I hear are clearly mistakes on a few notes. Everything else is fine, but the mistakes are remarkable in that they really stick out.

Here is a link to the version I'm talking about:
http://youtu.be/HxMIiTW59Co?t=2m55s

Second mistake ....
http://youtu.be/HxMIiTW59Co?t=3m23s

I say: Very cool that you can post the link to the time in the solo. I didn't know you could do that. It makes talking about this stuff A LOT easier.

Knowing for sure that those the places we're talking about ... YES ... those dissonant notes you hear are pretty much Jaki played. He had specific exercises to make sure his students would at least experience b9s and other such things over major 7 chords. Over a longer period of time (in the years since I've studied with him) I've realized his exercises were based on what he heard from people like Bud Powell, Monk, Ellington, Charles Ives and a million other sources.

In lessons - he'd play things just like you hear on the recording and he'd look you right in the eye. I mean DIRECTLY RIGHT in the eye! His fingers would splay all the keys in very non-traditional ways so he could get to this stuff. It was basically awesome!

So the reason I've been calling the solo a gem is precisely for those same parts that don't sound right to you. And I think you've very correctly and articulately identified the "sticking point," when you say

"You've accepted the dissonances as choice, and I see them as a mistake."

For context, when they made this recording, Tony Williams and Ron Carter were with Miles Davis and Sam Rivers had either just left that band (to be replaced by Wayne Shorter) or he was just coming into the band (but soon to be replaced by Shorter). SR pretty much was one of TW's mentors. TW, in particular, really liked SR a ton! And he's the one who was responsible for getting MD to hire SR. Jaki Byard, at the same time, was a notch above legendary. Because he could play everything from ragtime to classical to free jazz and bop and sometimes all in three or four measures! And all with a serious sense of humor.In a way, this recording is a SR & TW reunion and RC is there so you got Miles' rhythm section. But it's also SR and JB (the two older experienced guys) totally playing around with the two young lions of the time (TW and RC). And there's also the aspect of Jaki just playing with a sense of humor for and respect towards SR.

As I was coming "up" so to speak, just about everyone in my extended peer group listened to this recording as a "must know and hear" record. It was considered - and still is considered - to be THAT good. I mean Jaki Byard stretching and challenging Tony Williams? Sam Rivers on Fuschia Swing Song (the title cut) which is Night and Day but at an insane tempo. Jaki challenging Sam and vice versa? And EVERYONE taking chances and just having fun doing it? And all the places where Jaki and Sam take amazing liberties with the time and tonality and always come back in where they should ...



In your studies with him what did he say about this type of stuff?


It was just obvious this was stuff he wanted us to consider. But he didn't force anyone to play it or to like it. He exposed us to it and left it to us to take and use it or not. You know, Fred Hersch is a Jaki Byard student ...


you said:
When I was studying jazz comp the guy I studied with said something to the effect 'you can play any note in any place and make it sound good if you know what you're doing.'

and i say:
This is the common adage. A bunch of my teachers said it too. Because all too often, there are players who say "well I'm an artist and anything I play works and can't you hear it, etc., etc." .... so good teachers kind of keep the brakes close by while also giving encouragement to drive w/out brakes!


you said:

This may be why you hear everything as golden in this solo. IMHO I think a mistake was made, then it was incorporated into the second verse as well. I mean, who would ever play Es and Bs over an Eb chord--twice! No disrespect towards JB, by the way. He's a great player.

i say:
We're talking about the same stuff. I hear it great playing, I'll point it out to anyone who'll listen as great playing. But at the same time, if you DON'T hear it as great playing and if that's because you hear it as wrong, well, that's how you hear it. There's nothing wrong with that and that's why we're all here ... to listen, learn, and try on different points of view.

you said:
I used to hate most Wayne Shorter tunes, and never could understand why people liked Herbie Hancock. I'm not kidding! Now I really see value in what they do. But it's only because I'm finally starting to hear where they come from, and what they are expanding from. Before it just sounded too incoherent.

and i say:

i was the same way!

... this has been a great discussion. just one more anecdote. at the same time i was studying with jaki, dave liebman came and gave a master class. one thing he said that stayed with me was to the effect of: if you want to be a professional musician you're days of listening to what you like are OVER!" what he meant was exactly what we're talking about ... stretching and trying to broaden what you hear and seeing how far that process can go. and it is a process ...

Hope this helps! again, it's been a great discussion.

scepticalforumguy ...

just looking somemore through this thread ... regarding the kinds of dissonances we're talking about ...

you can find just about everything in the charlie parker omnibook. literally.

Jaki Solo - If you listen to it more carefully, you will hear that he does a glissando run on white notes from E down to B and then another gliss down again back to E. Then he went back up to B. So it's like a little D Dorian run downwards and upwards which meant he kept playing Dm when there was a half step movement in the chord.

Now, Scep, is this really such a new concept? When I play "So What" I switch my lines from Dm to Ebm (while the chord is still Dm). It's a very common thing for going outside in So What.

So here he kept playing Dorian even when the chord moved.

ONLY TWO notes in the EbMaj7#11 (Bb) Scale are not in D Dorian. AND WAIT!!! HE STOPS EXACTLY AT THOSE TWO RUB NOTES. So this is LESS OUTSIDE than people who do a half-step up on So What.

Like I said, I can't debate tastes since each of us is different, but when I heard the run, I became more certain of the intent.

whew. Yes, good discussion indeed. It sounds like you had some nice opportunities to study with great players.

Interesting about Fred Hersch being a student too. You'd never know it from his recordings, would you?

I still am open to hearing some recordings that validate what you and Dave F say are cool voicings because I still stand by my statement that if that type of solo (in particular those two small places) exemplifies great playing, one would think that other contemporaries would have recorded similar dissonances, and we'd see the evolution of them today in at least a few key players. So, if you stay the course, where can I find these players? Or what types of harmonic choices do you believe this actually allowed to happened that previously weren't accepted?

In my mind, some things still don't sound right, and playing an isolated E to B over an Eb chord is one of them.

I also understand that we all need to stretch our boundaries, so let's not completely end this discussion, ok?

As for the Omnibook: Any takers to show examples of this type of harmonic/melodic stuff? I don't have access to a book, and it'll be a while before I do.

Repeating something wrong doesn't make it more right, with or without glissando. Like I said before, there seems to be this notion that if you play something with enough authority it should make it right. I don't buy that. The Emperor (sp?) still has no clothes.

Lets not confuse what one can do with what actually sounds good. Most things can be explained theoretically.



yes...I know. He repeats them. Old technique to try to justify a clam. Didn't work.

I'm not really surprised by this. You justify similar lines in your own playing, yet as you become a better player, oddly enough these types of lines seem to be disappearing. Am I missing something? Shouldn't you be striving to put more b9 leaps in your melodic lines rather than trying to be more melodic?

Actually, the more I think about what you've said above, the more I can understand where you are coming from, and thus what Jaki might have been trying to do. If his intent was to stretch the boundaries of tonality he did so in a spectacular fashion. If his belief was to play the only two notes that would sound the most outside the tunes parameters he did so. Was it to prove he could? According to you, this may have been the case.

But like I've said, looking at the body of work that has followed by countless jazz artists, I can't think of any that have done something similar in a group playing over relatively standard jazz chords. Free jazz aside, I don't think this playing on this record at those two spots exemplifies anything that has set some sort of historical standard. I still am willing to listen to clips that prove me wrong though. I suspect there might be some Wayne Shorter stuff that verges on this?

scepticalguy .... this stuff IS all over the place in the history jazz. it's not at all that the examples of JB we're discussing are THE sources. they're just excellent examples of a common practice used by many and it is indeed COMMON practice.

i know this is a slim response but, really, i hope it helps!

If we're done with the flame wars, I'd like to discuss a real issue.

Just listen to the first few seconds of our band playing Whisper Not

Whisper Not Excerpt
https://www.box.com/updates/1/a//1/5701434484


I'm having a little debate with my rhythm section. As I have experienced with some tunes, it's often better to leave the head with an open rhythm style and not walk the bass until the solos.

So here the rhythm section goes into two-feel.

The problem is that the bass goes heavy on beats 1 & 3 and then the drums follow. So it feels top heavy and I told them that the swing is lost. I told the drummer to fill in 2 & 4. There's a tendency that when the bass player goes into a two-feel, the drummer accents the same downbeats.

Part of the problem with these 1 & 3 downbeat heavy grooves is that I tend to start the line on the downbeat which is so disorienting with the phrasing.

So I'm telling the drums to play open but not focus on a specific downbeat unless it's 2 & 4. Not being a drummer and a bassist, I'm not sure I'm communicating this well.

I asked for example, if the bass player should accent 2 & 4 to enhance swing. What is the approach typically on a walk?

Seeking some guidance here...

Are there jazz gods? Is perfection possible even at 340bpm?

Bred Mehldau talks about some of this.

http://www.carnegiehall.org/BlogPost.aspx?id=4294977236