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#2018897 - 01/22/13 09:51 AM What is New
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4234
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
I thought to post this so as not to interfere with the thread about “Missing Pins in New Piano."

Two things to consider if people want a piano right out of the shipping crate.

One:

It is impossible to prep a piano without first removing it from the shipping container it arrived in.
The result will be defects similar to what Lkdas has experienced in the missing pins thread.

Two:

Where is the substantiation that this is the original crate the instrument was shipped in? This could be a crate manufactured by the dealer and used for every piano delivered to give the appearance that the piano is coming “out of the box.”

I believe people are deceiving themselves or setting themselves up to be deceived.

So what is new? How “new” does it have to be? What defines new for retail?

Comments and opinions please.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2018954 - 01/22/13 11:20 AM Re: What is New [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Rickster Offline


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8585
Loc: Georgia, USA
I think receiving a “new” piano in the crate should be a conscious decision on the part of the buyer and seller. They understand (or at least should) they are getting a piano in the original shipping crate that is un-prepped and in a state of flux (uncertainty) in terms of being in good condition and ready to play. Some may well be ready to play right out of the crate, but I doubt most are.

In terms of knowing what constitutes “new retail”, I’m not sure. The buyer assumes they are getting a new piano and trusts the dealer to a certain extent. I’m thinking that anytime we buy a piano, new or pre-owned, there has to be a certain amount of trust between buyer and seller. This is why the reputation of the dealer is so important… just my .02.

Dan, unfortunately, I don’t think most piano shoppers recognize the value of proper prep by a competent piano tech. They are after the lowest cost/price. And, not to be a hypocrite, I’ve done it myself (seek out the lowest price).

Not that there is anything wrong with seeking out the lowest price, but just know that you usually get what you pay for (most of the time). I’ve suffered from buyer’s remorse due to the lowest price syndrome, and I’ve gotten a great deal/value a time or two. smile

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#2018959 - 01/22/13 11:30 AM Re: What is New [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10528
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
It us even more complicated.

All new pianos have internal packing material to prevent the action parts from damageduring shipping. Most delivery men aren 't trained to, in the case of a grand, to remove the action in order to remove the action tie-downs. It is a little easier in verticals but still a problem.

Most pianos, even those of the more maticulous manufacture, need adjustments after uncrating.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2018961 - 01/22/13 11:33 AM Re: What is New [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Steven Y. A. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/13
Posts: 291
Loc: Toronto
What prepp work is involved if im buying a new piano?
are they suppose to be done at dealers or at my house (toning, voicing)?
_________________________
PLEYEL P124

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#2018974 - 01/22/13 11:48 AM Re: What is New [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
SteveM732 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/30/12
Posts: 25
Loc: Beaverton, OR, USA
Some purchases, like a new TV, I expect to come out of a factory sealed box and I expect to be able to replace it with another sealed in box TV should I discover a dead pixel when I get home.

When buying a new car I expect it to have up to a few hundred miles on it from being transferred between dealerships and the occasional test drive (my new car had 200 miles on it). If any problems developed before or shortly after I buy the car then I expect it to be repaired back to what it should have been when it left the factory. If the car has multiple break downs there are usually "lemon laws" that will let you get another car as a replacement.

Considering the price, longevity, and complexity of mechanical movement in a piano I would expect "new" to be closer to that of a car than a TV. I expect to receive the piano in perfect working order with an opportunity to test it before accepting delivery, and if any repairs are done before or shortly after it gets delivered then it better be equivalent to when it left the factory. If it can't be repaired back to that standard or has a string of problems then it should be replaced.
_________________________
-Steve
1969 Yamaha U3

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#2019609 - 01/23/13 12:00 PM Re: What is New [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4234
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Hi Rickster,

Thanks for the comments. I agree there has to be a certain amount of trust extended between the purchaser and the dealer.
I am wondering if this symptom of having the piano direct shipped from the warehouse to the purchaser is a demonstration of lack of trust due to some noted unscrupulous behaviors, either real or perceived previously.

Steve C. makes some good observations about the unpacking of a grand and releasing all of the action/keyboard tie downs. Also he mentions the required adjustments to the instrument after the journey from another continent.

I would hope the client can see the benefit of having a qualified technician do that kind of duty rather than a moving company employee.

Steven Y.A.
The piano comes from the hold of a ship to a warehouse and then to the dealer. Would you not want the dealer to open up the crate and check the instrument over previous to shipping to your home?

Ship holds are cold and wet. Warehouses are not usually heated. This can, at times, lead to sticky actions and slow keyboard performance.

The perfect example is the kind of problems discovered in the piano direct shipped in the missing pins thread.

Steven M732 has the correct perspective on a new instrument being much like the delivery of a new automobile. Someone has to drive it around a bit to see if there are any performance problems. The same goes for a piano with up to 12,000 parts required for full assembly.

Something for all of the dealer’s to think about. If there is anxiety in the clients mind about getting a piano new out of the box perhaps the process could be changed a little;
When the buyer purchases a new instrument and the crate is delivered to the dealership for prep, maybe the buyer could be invited down to the store to witness the unpacking and record the serial number or something.

That would change the entire experience from a negative like the missing pins thread to a positive experience for both parties.

Heck the client might even enjoy ripping some of the crate apart themselves.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2019614 - 01/23/13 12:04 PM Re: What is New [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Steven Y. A. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/13
Posts: 291
Loc: Toronto
Thanks for the explanation.
So I guess the ideal way is to get the new piano prepped at the dealers, then toned in my house according to my room acoustic?
_________________________
PLEYEL P124

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#2019621 - 01/23/13 12:17 PM Re: What is New [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Rickster Offline


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8585
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Something for all of the dealer’s to think about. If there is anxiety in the clients mind about getting a piano new out of the box perhaps the process could be changed a little;
When the buyer purchases a new instrument and the crate is delivered to the dealership for prep, maybe the buyer could be invited down to the store to witness the unpacking and record the serial number or something.

That would change the entire experience from a negative like the missing pins thread to a positive experience for both parties.

Heck the client might even enjoy ripping some of the crate apart themselves.

I think this is an excellent idea…

The last new pick-up truck I bought was like that… fresh off the transport truck with the plastic covers on the seats, steering wheel, etc… it had not been prepped by the dealer yet. Of course, they did do the prep before I test drove it and bought it, but I felt good about it being so “fresh out of the wrapper” so to speak.

I don’t need another piano, but, like buying a brand new vehicle, it would be nice to experience buying a brand new piano (fresh out of the crate) once in my life. smile

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#2019629 - 01/23/13 12:26 PM Re: What is New [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4234
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Yes getting the auto with the plastic on the seats and everything new is a fun experience.

I think it might be fun to get the client involved in ripping open the crate. So will and some won’t, although who could resist tearing open the crate to see inside.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2019892 - 01/23/13 07:53 PM Re: What is New [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Nash. Piano Rescue Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 389
Loc: East Nashville,TN Scottsville...
There are some exceptions when it comes to certain products and shipping classes. The biggest things being tariffs. Nissan for instance or Infinity when those cars are shipped from Japan ( the ones built there) they come over by ship with no a/c. The a/c units are built here and then installed at the dealer on some models.

Sprinter vans are similar, built in Germany, semi assembled on a shipping platform then they get shipped here, offloaded in Baltimore MD and then put together with other parts made in Alabama and South Carolina at the SC assembly plant to save on the huge tariffs involved

I wouldn't mind opening a crate as long as it didn't have some indigenous species of man eating animal coming out from whichever country. Starved from 3 weeks on a big ship.
_________________________
J. Christie
Nashville Piano Rescue
www.NashvillePianoRescue.com
East Nashville
Bowling Green, KY
Scottsville KY.
Chamber of Commerce
Member/Sponsor

Putting inspiration in the hands of area musicians
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#2021631 - 01/26/13 12:26 PM Re: What is New [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
j&j Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 445
Loc: Southwest
As just a humble consumer here, you can keep the crate and the whole un-boxing event. When I was piano-shopping, it seemed I was drawn to the pianos that were "on the floor" for awhile. They had been prepped, had several tunings, and just sounded and felt better. Plus, their price was either more discounted, or I could negotiate a lower price since there wasn't the usual price increase. Finally, the pianos had very little "settling into its new home issues" after I took delivery.

So, I got a more stable piano for less money. Just my opinion.
_________________________
J & J
Yahama C3 PE
Casio Privia PX-330
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working." Pablo Picasso

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#2021714 - 01/26/13 03:03 PM Re: What is New [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14267
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
I think receiving a “new” piano in the crate should be a conscious decision on the part of the buyer and seller. They understand (or at least should) they are getting a piano in the original shipping crate that is un-prepped and in a state of flux (uncertainty) in terms of being in good condition and ready to play. Some may well be ready to play right out of the crate, but I doubt most are.


It's been a long known fact that many buyers, often of oriental descent, consider culturally "new" something that comes straight from a box. Nobody in their countries would explain things differently especially as there are considerable cost savings shoving a piano in from warehouse directly to customer's home.

The stories I heard are sometimes hilarious whereby some of these buyers insist of seeing the actual crate on truck and only then accept the piano to be delivered inside their house after.

There are even dealers in Western Canada pricing their "boxed pianos" conveniently displayed on same showroom floors even higher than their un-crated counterparts besides them.

Aimed at a particular ethnic group of buyers, their established mentality is being reinforced with the result that only a minority of these buyers will see value in having a dealer prep a piano considering and insiting it to be "new".

While conscientious dealers will educate their customers, others see advantage of buying into these prejudices for their own advantage.

While the practice is perhaps tenable involving higher quality type pianos, it's not something that should be practiced involving the lower tiers.

However, when established beliefs & prejudices allow $$ to be saved it's often going the other way.

As "remedy", some dealers here now offer 2 or more home tunings later, but then always using only the absolute cheapest guy in town...

As a result many owners of new this way will never enjoy the full potential of the piano they will have.

Regretfully,this doesn't seem to often matter much in today's market...

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (01/26/13 03:22 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#2021749 - 01/26/13 04:44 PM Re: What is New [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14267
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:

As just a humble consumer here, you can keep the crate and the whole un-boxing event. When I was piano-shopping, it seemed I was drawn to the pianos that were "on the floor" for awhile. They had been prepped, had several tunings, and just sounded and felt better. Plus, their price was either more discounted, or I could negotiate a lower price since there wasn't the usual price increase. Finally, the pianos had very little "settling into its new home issues" after I took delivery.

So, I got a more stable piano for less money. Just my opinion.


The way it should be....

Norbert thumb


Edited by Norbert (01/26/13 04:44 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#2021766 - 01/26/13 05:07 PM Re: What is New [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

Something for all of the dealer’s to think about. If there is anxiety in the clients mind about getting a piano new out of the box perhaps the process could be changed a little;
When the buyer purchases a new instrument and the crate is delivered to the dealership for prep, maybe the buyer could be invited down to the store to witness the unpacking and record the serial number or something.

That would change the entire experience from a negative like the missing pins thread to a positive experience for both parties.
A very interesting approach. I wonder if any dealers have actually tried it?

Even better might be to try and educate/convince buyers that if one is reasonably fussy about tone and touch the best way is to select a piano that has already been prepped and is in the dealer's showroom. I wonder how many dealers adopt this approach?

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#2021806 - 01/26/13 06:20 PM Re: What is New [Re: Rickster]
LFL Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/12
Posts: 72
I had to "accept" my recent purchase of a Shigeru SK5 "in the crate" as part of my negotiations for price and unusual delivery (see my previous thread and YouTube video of delivery by crane). I wholeheartedly agree that in the case of buying a "new" piano, it is certainly best to test drive it in the showroom. There is significant variation in individual pianos, regardless of the brand, and some prep is required in order to make a reasonabe decision. I accepted mine in the original crate (not being able to play it first) only because of the reputation of Shigerus to be reproducible in quality, nearly perfect out of the box, and the MAP visit from Japan to come. Also, my dealer did all the uncrating, etc in my presence, in my home. Admittedly, that WAS fun--like unwrapping the biggest Christmas or birthday present ever!
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5L

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