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#2019330 - 01/22/13 09:44 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Macy]
VILabs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 44
Macy,

We don't have a money back guarantee. Initial sales have been strong so far though so I suspect the feedback and reviews should begin rolling in over the next couple of weeks.

We've been working on True Keys for nearly 4 years so in many ways you're getting version one and version two out of the gate. We knew there was no reason to come to market unless we could really push the envelope when it came to piano VI's. It just happened to take us 4 years to get it to that level.

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#2019438 - 01/23/13 03:27 AM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
floydthebarber71 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 178
Loc: South Africa
Cool, well done on getting it out officially.

I'm sure you guys made an informed decision on not selling them individually, despite concerns being raised here (at the least). I'm looking out for an individual piano so this won't be for me. Unless those reviews you are counting on will sway me otherwise smile
_________________________
Zaahir

Self-taught renegade - Kawai CL-36

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#2019442 - 01/23/13 03:38 AM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: VILabs]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 619
Given the exceptional quality of the Vintage D and the American Concert D, I don't know what anyone could say about another software piano that would make me want to spend twice their price to replace them. They have established the market price for state-of-the-art pianos. Although I can (fortunately) afford to buy all the VST pianos on the market, after it while it becomes a matter of principle not to over-pay for these things. Especially when price and quality don't correlate on previous piano software products.


Edited by Macy (01/23/13 03:38 AM)
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2019484 - 01/23/13 07:29 AM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
If Vintage D et al are of exceptional quality and no other software could possibly be much better, why are you posting here apparently interested in another piano VST? No offense meant, just wondering.

I would prefer the individual pianos as well, for obvious reasons. I bought Ivory II back in the day but I only ever use one piano of it. Vintage D certainly has a competitive price (American D less so, but still acceptable). So $350 is indeed a bit much unless there was an actual playable demo. I'll admit the provided demos do sound very nice but they have a good bit of reverb, and listening to Vintage D demos with similiar reverb does make it sound somewhat similiar for the demanding classical pieces. Reverb just tends to connect the notes and possibly makes it sound more resonant (usually the down side of sampled pianos).

So, I'm not sure if I'll buy it right now, although it's tempting. What's $350 compared to what we spend on other stuff, right? Thinking of the gear involved in that Pianoteq patch the other day...

Vintage D, Ivory II/American D... all nice, but far from perfect. I guess I'll think about it.

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#2019674 - 01/23/13 01:51 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Gigantoad]
Aeons Holle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/01/12
Posts: 55
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
Ryan/VILabs, thanks for the headsup!

As I mentioned before in another thread, I have already decided to be a guinea pig for this.
So, I have just bought True Keys: Pianos via the webstore. The registration and ordering process went smooth, and the flatrate shipping is definitely a nice feature for international customers.

I promise to post a review and create DPBSD samples of all the pianos in the bundle. Hopefully dewster will have worked through his backlog by the time I get this... smile
_________________________
Kawai CA95
VI Labs True Keys: Pianos
Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D, Italian Grand, Grand Pianos
Galaxy Vintage D, The Giant

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#2019722 - 01/23/13 03:47 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
Bane Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 91
Loc: USA
Precisely, like I have already paid for a VST grand set. Now I want to add on with different pianos like Italian Grands, better Steinways, uprights, etc.

Right now I'm looking around for a good Italian grand. If this one was sold separately, I would probably choose it over Ivory's.
_________________________
www.soundcloud.com/btrailblazer

Cable-Nelson upright piano, Casio WK-200, Mackie MR5MK2 monitors, Cubase Artist 7, Steinberg's The Grand 3, Focusrite Scarlett 8i6 interface, Asus R500a-RS52 Windows 8, i5-3230M 2.6 gHz, 6GB RAM, 750GB HD (5400RPM)

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#2019772 - 01/23/13 05:01 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Bane]
Aeons Holle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/01/12
Posts: 55
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
Well, I can definitely understand the arguments of those wanting to buy only one piano of the suite.
But I do also see why VI Labs decided to offer only the bundle - as Ryan mentioned earlier in the thread, the bundle is priced the same as two individual pianos would have been if they had offered that option.

My thoughts and math (and why I'm fine with getting the bundle):

With the current USD/EUR exchange rate, True Keys set me back about €280.
That's 20€ more than the whole Ivory II Grand Pianos suite. I consider that competitively priced.
It is also 20€ less than Ivory II Italian Grand and American D combined, so I get a 3 piano bundle for less than 2 separate pianos which I bought in the past.
And considering Ryan's pricing statement, since I would have wanted to buy at least the True Keys American and German libraries, I basically get the Italian on top for free.

My first piano VST was Ivory II Italian. I instantly did not like it, so that money was wasted completely. Then I got the Ivory Grand Piano Suite, of which I liked the German D best. More money all in all, but at least I got something usable out of it. So maybe that's the reason I'm partial to bundles. As I quickly realized, the playability makes all the difference, and you can't judge that from demos, so I rather have more pianos to try and find my favourite.

Of course, being able to demo the product and then only buy the favourite piano would be by far the best option for a potential customer; it's too bad this is so difficult with a heavyweight sample library.

In any case, more options are always good for the customer, so maybe the single libraries will be made available individually sometime in the future. I guess that will depend on whether VI Labs considers demand for this to be big enough.

BTW, the manual for True Keys is up on their website:
True Keys Pianos Manual

After going through it, my expectations for the product are now even higher. Apart from being hyped up by the introduction, I'm specifically excited about their understanding and implementation of repetition strikes.
_________________________
Kawai CA95
VI Labs True Keys: Pianos
Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D, Italian Grand, Grand Pianos
Galaxy Vintage D, The Giant

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#2019780 - 01/23/13 05:13 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2239
Loc: Sydney, Australia
EWQLP looked great on paper too - it has true repetition samples and true staccato. However, I find that it behaves better without the repetitions, and the staccato doesn't actually work for normal live playing - you have to use the mod wheel to "select" the stacatto samples! I'll be interested to see how it goes with True Keys. ;^)

Greg_the_wet_blanket

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#2019787 - 01/23/13 05:22 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
VILabs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 44
Thanks for noticing the little details on that.

Part of the team that worked on True Keys is already responsible for a very popular piano VI that is spoken of very highly even on these forums.

I won't elaborate on that specifically, but we continued what was started and pushed the envelope to new heights and added quite a few more features.

I need to stop hyping it up and let everyone start playing it though :-).

-Ryan @ VI Labs.

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#2019804 - 01/23/13 05:42 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Gigantoad]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 619
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
If Vintage D et al are of exceptional quality and no other software could possibly be much better, why are you posting here apparently interested in another piano VST? No offense meant, just wondering.


I'm always interested in a new pianos and hopeful that they will improve upon previous products. My exact words were, "I don't know what anyone could say about another software piano that would make me want to spend twice their price to replace them." I'm really objecting to bundling the pianos to drive up the price to just try their product. I think the Vintage D and American Concert D have established the price for state-of-art pianos at $140-$180, not $350. It just annoys me to pay twice as much (or more) to see if I like one of these 3 pianos better than the Vintage D. On the other hand I'd immediately buy one of them to try if it were priced at $180, just as I immediately bought the American Concert D when it became available.

I can see where some people might like the ACD better than the Vintage D, although personally I still prefer the Vintage D. (I'll spare you stories about how good I think it is.) But I don't feel disappointed that I bought the ACD at $180 and still continue to experiment with it trying to find some setup that I would prefer over the Vintage D. However, I would feel very disappointed had I paid $350 just to try it and it didn't become my primary piano. Like I said above, I'm quite fortunate and could easily just go buy every software piano that was introduced. But I still don't like the feeling of overpaying for things even if I can.

BTW, I'm not the least impressed that there are 3 pianos in this bundle. I've already purchased EWQL (4 pianos) and Ivory II (3 pianos) at similar or higher prices. I paid over $400 for EWQL and have always felt extremely annoyed by having to pay for all 4 of their pianos. Had I been able to buy one of those pianos for $180-$200, then I would never had bought the others and simply emotionally wrote it off as a learning experience.

If these new pianos were all state of the art then I would be happy to pay $180 each for them. If none are state of the art then I suspect I would find out after buying the first one and buy no more. The fact that they are bundled suggests to me that at most only one of them is likely to be really good. Else the company would have the confidence to sell them individually knowing that after you like the first one you bought you would want to buy another to try. If you have a great product your customers will always come back for more. If they don't have that confidence in their pianos it's a red flag to me.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2019906 - 01/23/13 08:21 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Macy]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1957
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Macy
If you have a great product your customers will always come back for more.


Absolutely true.

And that fact can fit in to a marketing strategy where the trio of pianos offered includes one very good one. If you find that it is receiving rave reviews you may very well decide to pay the $350 just to get the "good" one.

Always remember, it takes a lot of financial investment to bring these products to market. If there is no payoff for them when they get it right, they will not be motivated to keep striving for better.

As they say ... It takes money to buy good whiskey.
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#2020039 - 01/24/13 12:54 AM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
floydthebarber71 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 178
Loc: South Africa
Yeah, business is business? Rope in as many as you can on the package through hype and those really interested in one piano but don't mind the package cost (and those that want the whole package of course), then make them available individually later. Crude suggestion but understandable.
_________________________
Zaahir

Self-taught renegade - Kawai CL-36

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#2020081 - 01/24/13 02:49 AM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
What I don't get is why software pianos in general aren't sold via download. Is it really an issue to download 60 GB of data these days? Not to me it isn't. Could probably even lower that with good compression and then unzip during installation. And on top of that, dare I say it, that same download could be used as a limited time demo.

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#2020098 - 01/24/13 04:27 AM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
What I don't get is why software pianos in general aren't sold via download. Is it really an issue to download 60 GB of data these days? Not to me it isn't. Could probably even lower that with good compression and then unzip during installation. And on top of that, dare I say it, that same download could be used as a limited time demo.

Many are. Vienna Imperial, Galaxy's The Giant, Vintage D, Galaxy II pianos, Native Instruments Alicia's Keyes, 8dio 1928 Legacy Grand, all Imperfect Samples pianos, Soundiron's Emotional Piano, CineSamples Piano in Blue, all Absolute Pianos, Pianoteq, TruePianos, all Sampletekk pianos, to name several.

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#2020169 - 01/24/13 07:46 AM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3902
Loc: North Carolina
Gig: Many of us have reliable high-speed internet access, and this make it reasonable to accept multi-gigabyte downloads. I do.

But many people do not have such access. Perhaps sellers don't want to exclude any potential customers by insisting on downloads?

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#2020192 - 01/24/13 08:36 AM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: MacMacMac]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1957
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
But many people do not have such access. Perhaps sellers don't want to exclude any potential customers by insisting on downloads?


"Insisting" would not be necessary. Just an option.

I believe some do that now.
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#2020590 - 01/24/13 05:19 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
I would think that the benefits of a download would far outweigh the downsides. Especially if you're convinced you have a great product, a demo would do wonders. This works for the whole software industry, why not for some creators of piano libraries?

And don't get me started on iLok. I have one, but I also have so many usb devices that I'm constantly struggling as it is and don't need the audacity that is copy protection through such a horrible dongle method (that only punishes the paying customer anyway). Not to mention the horrors of setting that thing up and put actual licenses on it. I'm almost certain that this hurts sales more than what is saved through preventing piracy.

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#2020596 - 01/24/13 05:24 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Gigantoad]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 619
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
Especially if you're convinced you have a great product, a demo would do wonders.


Create a great product and treat your customers well. The secret to success. It works every time!
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2020604 - 01/24/13 05:36 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Gigantoad]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3902
Loc: North Carolina
I frequently hear this on other boards:
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
I'm almost certain that this hurts sales more than what is saved through preventing piracy.

How can you be certain? None of us have access to information to support that.

Also, the reverse seems fairly certain. They surely know that the sales lost to piracy of unprotected software must be greater than the sales lost to people unwilling to deal with an Ilok. It this were not the case, it would make no economic sense to require an Ilok!

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#2020618 - 01/24/13 05:51 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
By that logic, 80% of software out there would rely on iLok. But that's not the case. It's used on very, very few applications. I'm not talking about DRM in general (although I'd have to say more about that as well), just this dongle bit.

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#2020624 - 01/24/13 05:56 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
About DRM in general (very OT, but if anyone is interested). I'm also a bit of gamer. The game industry is probably the biggest target of software piracy. In my humble opinion, as far as people in that industry are concerned, there are those that get it and those that don't. Here's one who does (again, strictly IMO):

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielnyegri...projekt-on-drm/

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#2020777 - 01/24/13 10:10 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
Hubert Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/09
Posts: 27
with the power of laptop or even tablet these days I believe more people will run their VST through those device, but it only provides a very limited number of USB ports..... which makes me think that iLok (or other device that uses a USB port) is not the way to go for future VSTs.... I do have a iLok myself but it doesn't bother me much because I'm using a desktop.

Actually I'm very interested in the Italian grand of the True Keys myself but I won't spend that much to pay for the others that I don't "want".....

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#2020999 - 01/25/13 09:15 AM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
davinwv Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/04/06
Posts: 35
Loc: Bridgeport, WV
I use a USB hub with my laptop for my iLok and eLicenser.

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#2021042 - 01/25/13 10:37 AM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
VILabs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 44
If any of you are at the NAMM show you can come visit us in the MOTU booth (Hall A - Booth 6410). I know some of the nuance is lost due to volume, but we have some Focal Twin 6's and a set of 7506's you can listen through.

I look forward to meeting some of you in person.

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#2098466 - 06/08/13 04:13 AM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: VILabs]
imyself Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/05/12
Posts: 138
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: VILabs
...
However, if you'd like a few of the MIDI files we can send them over to you. Anyone who wants a few of them can send a message to ryan@vilabsaudio.com and I'll get them put into a zip file and send them over.

Hello VILabs,
As you propose, i will really appreciate if you may send me the midi files of yours demos.

By advance, thank you smile

(PS: Few days ago, i had already ask for the demo by email, but you certainly do not receive it)
_________________________
Kawai VPC1/Synthogy American D/Pianoteq 5 Pro/Galaxy Vintage D

"Remember to take the time ... before time takes you"

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