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Topic Options
#2019608 - 01/23/13 11:59 AM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: -Frycek]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3200
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
The vaccine is a preventative, not a cure.


Thank you, thank you, thank you!

It is so extremely rare to see the word used correctly. I have reported you to the grammar police for a special commendation.

As you correctly used it, preventative is a noun. It is NOT an adjective; preventive is an adjective. We practise preventive medicine by using a vaccine as a preventative.

And if I had a nickel for every time I've seen it used right, I'd be up to 5 cents with your contribution.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#2019616 - 01/23/13 12:08 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: Monica K.]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3200
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: Monica K.
Smallpox killed more people throughout the history of humankind than all our wars combined, and it's eradicated now only because of vaccines. That's pretty compelling to me.




I agree with you.

I mostly bowed out after my first rude comment about superstition. But I think I need to opine that the gulf here is vaster than you realize, and unbridgable.

It is not simply a rational cost benefit analysis between alternatives, like deciding whether tylenol or motrin is better for a fever.


There is a fundamental world view difference between people who rely on science, data, evidence, logic, etc., and people who distrust all of the above.

The alternative medicine camp has not decided for one choice among options - they have rejected one choice, and by default accepted what was left.

Having attempted reasonable discussions about the actual evidence for and against various forms of therapy, including vaccination, homeopathy, crystal healing, chiropractic, acupuncture, iridology, etc. (yes I worked in health care 8 years myself) I have concluded discussion is fruitless. Worse, continuing a calm and reasonable conversation normally provokes rage eventually.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#2019651 - 01/23/13 01:02 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: BDB]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: BDB

If you are a teacher, dealing with a lot of students, do you think you might become a vector?


It is as likely as that they will catch flu from a child or teacher at school.

Quote:

Will you feel responsibility for those who catch it from you?


Not in the slightest. I take time off when I know I'm infectious.

Quote:
If you get sick, are you comfortable with the loss of income when you cannot teach?


Totally. It goes with the territory when you're self-employed.

Quote:
What do you think your responsibility is?


To teach piano! smile
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#2019688 - 01/23/13 02:34 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: ten left thumbs]
chasingrainbows Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/06
Posts: 1077
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
Originally Posted By: BDB

If you are a teacher, dealing with a lot of students, do you think you might become a vector?


It is as likely as that they will catch flu from a child or teacher at school.

Quote:

Will you feel responsibility for those who catch it from you?


Not in the slightest. I take time off when I know I'm infectious.

Quote:
If you get sick, are you comfortable with the loss of income when you cannot teach?


Totally. It goes with the territory when you're self-employed.

Quote:
What do you think your responsibility is?


To teach piano! smile


Ditto! smile If I am contagious, I stay home. Unfortunately, too many parents have sent children to lessons sneezing, coughing, feverish, etc. even though I will gladly give a make up lesson in the event of illness. Why should I be forced to get a vaccine when I believe in alternative medicine (and it has worked for me) because of the disrespect and inconsiderate action of others who are sick and do not stay home?

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#2019698 - 01/23/13 02:47 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: chasingrainbows]
Bigmark Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/07/12
Posts: 18
Loc: UK
I've never had the flu jab,BUT.. I have now had influenza three times in seven years, previous to that in my fifty one years on this planet I had it once. I am just getting over my third bout.
I am sure that those who sell the flu vaccine are also the ones who release the virus onto the general public ?

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#2019702 - 01/23/13 03:01 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: chasingrainbows]
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3160
Originally Posted By: chasingrainbows
Why should I be forced to get a vaccine when I believe in alternative medicine (and it has worked for me) because of the disrespect and inconsiderate action of others who are sick and do not stay home?


Unfortunately, the flu virus can spread without the affected person having symptoms:

For adults:

Quote:
So, when are you most contagious? Most experts agree that adults with a cold or the flu start being contagious about a day before they start experiencing symptoms.


For children:

Quote:
For the flu, the contagious period then lasts five to seven days into the illness. For children, the contagious period for the flu can last up to two weeks after they start feeling sick, even if they start feeling better before that. The contagious period for a cold lasts about three to four days into the illness. As a general rule, people with a cold are most contagious about three days after their initial exposure to the virus.


From this article:

http://health.howstuffworks.com/diseases-conditions/cold-flu/contagious.htm
_________________________
Music teacher and piano player.

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#2019703 - 01/23/13 03:01 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: Bigmark]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: Bigmark
I've never had the flu jab,BUT.. I have now had influenza three times in seven years, previous to that in my fifty one years on this planet I had it once. I am just getting over my third bout.
I am sure that those who sell the flu vaccine are also the ones who release the virus onto the general public ?


Now that's the most sensible thing anyone has said.
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#2019706 - 01/23/13 03:08 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: Bigmark]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3583
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Bigmark
I've never had the flu jab,BUT.. I have now had influenza three times in seven years, previous to that in my fifty one years on this planet I had it once. I am just getting over my third bout.
I am sure that those who sell the flu vaccine are also the ones who release the virus onto the general public ?


I suppose America faked the moon-landings too?

What point are you trying to make? As far as I can tell, you don't get flu jabs and you catch the flu every other year. That's your argument against the fluvax?Maybe if you had had the fluvax you wouldn't have had the flu so much. Conspiracies? Please...

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#2019707 - 01/23/13 03:09 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: ten left thumbs]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3583
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
Originally Posted By: Bigmark
I've never had the flu jab,BUT.. I have now had influenza three times in seven years, previous to that in my fifty one years on this planet I had it once. I am just getting over my third bout.
I am sure that those who sell the flu vaccine are also the ones who release the virus onto the general public ?


Now that's the most sensible thing anyone has said.


I really hope you're joking...

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#2019734 - 01/23/13 04:16 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: chasingrainbows]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
One of the saddest things I see, is the abuse of the health care system. Especially by those that have no health insurance for whatever reason. Here's what I mean.

A couple of weeks ago, I had my Gallbladder removed. They were considering keeping me overnight as it was 8 PM by that time anyway to help me with the pain that I was having from surgery but instead, they had to send me home to a completely miserably night of barely any sleep and lots of pain. Actually, I had that for several nights.

The reason?? The whole hospital they said, was filled with people that had come into the ER (Key word here ----> ER<----) with the flu. They didn't go to an Urgent Care Center where they belonged but, into the ER which is for the REAL emergencies. Oh sure, it's obvious that many people there had true emergencies but, you know what I'm talking about if you've ever gone to one yourself with a real emergency what the wait is like because of this. Consequently there were no open beds for me. That is just plain ridiculous. I would have much rather have had my pain under better control but on the other hand, I don't want to catch whatever is in that hospital either.

No, I did not have the flu shot. Every year that I've ever gotten the shot, I've gotten the flu. Every year that I've not gotten the shot, I've not gotten the flu. This year, I had a cold for 10 days but, other than that, I've been okay.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#2019759 - 01/23/13 04:46 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: chasingrainbows]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Love it Nikalette. I don't get paid to stay home either but, I do whenever I'm sick. In fact, I have it on my scheduling site if you're sick, please let me know because I don't want to catch whatever you have. I'd rather we rescheduled.

I have a brother in law who's build up 19 MONTHS worth of sick pay and brags about how he goes to work sick. 19 MONTHS of free sick days!!! Ludicrous. While these same dopes, pass it onto the rest of us.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#2019763 - 01/23/13 04:51 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
One of the saddest things I see, is the abuse of the health care system. Especially by those that have no health insurance for whatever reason.
[...]
The reason?? The whole hospital they said, was filled with people that had come into the ER (Key word here ----> ER<----) with the flu. They didn't go to an Urgent Care Center where they belonged but, into the ER which is for the REAL emergencies. [...] Consequently there were no open beds for me.

Jerry, I'm sorry you had that experience after your surgery. But your ire seems misplaced. Not everyone has access to an Urgent Care Center -- we didn't have one in my area until a year ago. And one of the upshots of people not having health insurance is that they try to put off seeing a doctor at all, until their illness requires going to a hospital and they can't put it off any more.

If these people with the flu were taking up beds, and not just causing a long wait in the emergency room, than that means that their flu had become an emergency requiring hospitalization. Or even if it wasn't an emergency but it was still serious enough to require hospitalization and they could have been admitted from an Urgent Care Center, they still would have been taking up beds and you would have had to be sent home anyway.

So it sounds to me that your issue is not with people going to the Emergency Room, but with whatever causes that many people to be sick enough with the flu to need a hospital bed. And if you're going to pin that on people without health insurance, then the thing to protest is not that people without insurance take the entirely reasonable position of trying to save precious money by not visiting a doctor when a sickness is not of crisis proportions. Rather, the thing to protest is the circumstances of insurance in this country which mean so many people can't afford it and aren't covered.

And it might not even be a neglected flu and people without insurance who were taking up the hospital beds. Maybe flu was just being very very serious at the time you had your surgery, and all those people would have ended up in the hospital regardless of the prior doctor's care they received.

Or maybe if they'd all had a flu shot, they wouldn't have been in the hospital in the first place. Which brings us back to the question of this thread: should you have a flu shot?
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2019785 - 01/23/13 05:19 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: chasingrainbows]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
Not true. Many people without health insurance go to the ER because they have no family doctor and the ER is required to see them, even without insurance. This is a primary problem among the working poor. They go to the ER for things like the common cold because they have no other alternative.
_________________________
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano

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#2019793 - 01/23/13 05:29 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: chasingrainbows]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
OK, I take your point. But they wouldn't have been hospitalized if their flu were not serious. So the problem Jerry encountered, that all the hospital beds were full, is not caused by people going to the ER instead of the doctor. It's caused by people having a bad flu needing hospitalization, which can happen whether or not they have insurance, and whether or not they went to their family doctor or the ER first.

I personally am sympathetic to people who feel their best or only option is going to the ER for non-emergencies because of the crap insurance situation in this country.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2019856 - 01/23/13 07:06 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: chasingrainbows]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Quote:
And one of the upshots of people not having health insurance is that they try to put off seeing a doctor at all, until their illness requires going to a hospital and they can't put it off any more.


That isn't anyone's fault but their own.

People taking up beds, due to waiting so long well, I don't feel so sorry for them. Wait until you're on your death bed before going in and usually always going into ER for whatever reason is a cop out. It takes away from those that truly need the ER.

Quote:
So it sounds to me that your issue is not with people going to the Emergency Room, but with whatever causes that many people to be sick enough with the flu to need a hospital bed.


Did I say that? No, I did not. That is not true at all. The truth of the matter is that people abuse the ER constantly. I know, I've been there with my dad when he was having strokes and my wife's dad when he was having strokes. We waited and waited and waited and waited for 6 hours every single time which gave me plenty of time to listen to the people that did not need to be there.

I heard what many people were in there for and it was not necessary for those people to be there at all in many cases.

One person did in fact, stub their toe. Another, sprained their ankle. It wasn't broken, he was walking around on it. I wondered how badly hurt he really even was? Those were true incidents.

I have health insurance. I pay $700 a month for it however, I also have a $10,000 PER YEAR deductible too! I have NO coverage at all for physical therapy should it be needed.

I have used that $10,000 deductible every year for the past 3 years and then some for things that were not covered at all.

Even with my high deductible, I don't allow myself to get to the point where I'm so sick that I have to go down to ER.

Oh, and I did not say, that the whole hospital was filled with people with no health insurance. You did. I said what the hospital told me. That there were no beds available because the hospital was full of people with the flu.

Quote:
I personally am sympathetic to people who feel their best or only option is going to the ER for non-emergencies because of the crap insurance situation in this country.


For the proper reasons most certainly but not for a walk in clinic when they have other options just as I do.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#2019874 - 01/23/13 07:26 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: chasingrainbows]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
I withdraw any speculation about how people ended up sick enough with the flu that they needed hospitalization.

I'm sorry, I apparently misunderstood your complaint. You started off by complaining about people without health insurance who abuse the emergency room, and then went on to talk about the bad effect for you of not being able to stay overnight at the hospital because all the beds were filled with people with the flu. So are you saying that your two complaints are unrelated to each other? Were you complaining about two separate facts which are unrelated except by the fact that they both occur in hospitals?
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2019876 - 01/23/13 07:29 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: chasingrainbows]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I am complaining about the abuse of the ER system in general. I thought I was clear about that. wink
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#2019880 - 01/23/13 07:35 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: chasingrainbows]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
That's what I thought. But I don't think hospitalization is related to abuse of the emergency room. If the ER is overfilled with people with the common cold and lightly sprained ankles, those people are not going to be hospitalized and take up a bed. So I still don't understand why, if you were complaining about the ER, you added on a complaint about hospital beds being filled.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2019886 - 01/23/13 07:44 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: chasingrainbows]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I added the complaint because I don't like it that I didn't get a bed when I could have used one. smile

For one, if people wouldn't wait for so long to go to the ER in the first place, many of them would probably not need to be hospitalized right? That doesn't just go for people with the flu either. That can also easily be applied for people with heart issues for example; that don't take their medications. Where do they wind up again? ER.

That goes for people that don't follow their doctor's advice. Where do they eventually wind up again? ER.

That goes for people that smoke and have clogged arteries and other health issues but yet they keep on smoking. Where do they wind up? The ER. On and on it goes.

So when someone else comes along that could really use the bed that the abused ER person is taking and can't get one? That's my beef. Abuse of the ER. smile
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

Top
#2019954 - 01/23/13 09:59 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: chasingrainbows]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21529
Loc: Oakland
People go to the emergency room because there is no guarantee that anywhere else will see them if they do not have insurance. That is probably the major reason for the health care act, and it is where the greatest savings are expected. If people had insurance, other options would be open to them. I agree that people should be more responsible. But often the same people who want others to be responsible complain about the law that requires people to be responsible.

For me, the co-pay is $25 if I go to urgent care, and $100 if I go to the emergency room. The main difference is that I have to make an appointment for urgent care, although if they find something which is really an emergency, they will take me down to the emergency room.

My doctor recommended a flu shot. Flu shots are free for Kaiser members like me, because Kaiser feels it is cheaper to prevent the flu than to treat it. I can walk in any time and get one, no appointment necessary.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2019955 - 01/23/13 10:07 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: chasingrainbows]
MaggieGirl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 483
Maybe they should have 2 different emergency rooms - those for people with preventable emergencies and those with unpreventable emergencies.

Personally I had to go to the same emergency room three times in 30 days. I did not see the "abuses" you described.

I have insurance and my daughter fell while skating and her ankle swelled instantly. The doctor's office was closed and urgent care said the x ray tech was gone for the day and she needed an orthopedist and they don't have one on staff anyway.

I suppose I should only have allowed her to skate until 4:30pm so if she got hurt we wouldn't be abusing the ER.

Or maybe to not allow her to skate at all because getting hurt happens and so then it was a preventable emergency.

They didn't have you stay over because typically patients from that procedure don't stay overnight (or the bed would have been reserved)and it wasn't an emergency.

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#2019964 - 01/23/13 10:26 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: chasingrainbows]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Oh come on now Maggie, let's not exaggerate things now. wink There is a proper time and a proper place for proper ER use.

I do love your idea though about 2 separate ER rooms. That would be nicer.

No, mine was not an emergency because I went to my doctor to have things checked out as I should have done before it became an emergency.

Even my surgeon said (along with many other people) that 10 years ago, this type of surgery would have been considered a normal 5 day hospital stay but, as many of us know, the insurance companies dictate today what they are going to pay for and how much and how long you can stay in the hospital. That is a main reason why we cannot stay longer.

One reason they wanted to keep me there in the first place was to help control the pain. Not that I'm a wuss, I'm certainly not that.

BDB if you think for a minute that the healthcare is going to be less expensive you are dead wrong. It has already gone up and will go up more this year and a lot more next year. My wife is an insurance agent and knows a lot more about what is coming down the pike than we are being told and so far, she has been right on the money. But, I don't care to get into that debate.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#2019980 - 01/23/13 10:56 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: chasingrainbows]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21529
Loc: Oakland
I have no idea whether the overall effect of the healthcare act will increase or reduce the cost. All I was saying is that lowering the number of emergency room visits is expected to reduce costs. Whether that is offset by other costs, I do not know.

However, no matter what, my rates have gone up. When I started tuning, one tuning would cover a month's insurance. Now it takes five or six.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2020017 - 01/24/13 12:08 AM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: chasingrainbows]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: chasingrainbows
Have you received the flu shot, and if not, why not? [...]


Food for thought
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2020027 - 01/24/13 12:37 AM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: Cinnamonbear]
The Monkeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 427
Loc: Vancouver BC
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: chasingrainbows
Have you received the flu shot, and if not, why not? [...]


Food for thought


According to WOT (Web Of Trust), the site has a very poor reputation rating.

When I get a new computer, the first thing I do is to install WOT plugin for my browser as an essential security tool.



Edited by The Monkeys (01/24/13 12:38 AM)

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#2020175 - 01/24/13 07:52 AM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: ando]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
Originally Posted By: Bigmark
I've never had the flu jab,BUT.. I have now had influenza three times in seven years, previous to that in my fifty one years on this planet I had it once. I am just getting over my third bout.
I am sure that those who sell the flu vaccine are also the ones who release the virus onto the general public ?


Now that's the most sensible thing anyone has said.


I really hope you're joking...


I'm exactly as serious as Bigmark.
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#2020198 - 01/24/13 08:45 AM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: ten left thumbs]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3200
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
Originally Posted By: Bigmark
I've never had the flu jab,BUT.. I have now had influenza three times in seven years, previous to that in my fifty one years on this planet I had it once. I am just getting over my third bout.
I am sure that those who sell the flu vaccine are also the ones who release the virus onto the general public ?


Now that's the most sensible thing anyone has said.


I really hope you're joking...


I'm exactly as serious as Bigmark.


A variant of Poe's Law?
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#2020288 - 01/24/13 11:48 AM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: chasingrainbows]
chasingrainbows Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/06
Posts: 1077
Loc: NJ
Jerry, was there a difference in your flu symptoms when you had received the flu shot and when you did not get the flu shot?


Ando, I believe Bigmark was being facetious.


Edited by chasingrainbows (01/24/13 11:49 AM)

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#2020356 - 01/24/13 01:26 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: chasingrainbows]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Each time I got the flu shot, after a couple of days I wound up being sick for about a week up to maybe 10 days or so tops. I've been healthier without getting the flu shot but then I take Vitamin D3 twice a day too FWIW.

Without the flu shot when I got sick, it lasted about the same amount of time. The symptoms were pretty much the same as far as I can remember.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#2020637 - 01/24/13 06:21 PM Re: Flu shot or not? [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
malkin Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 2551
Loc: *sigh* Salt Lake City
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT

I do love your idea though about 2 separate ER rooms. That would be nicer.


Many places in the US already have this system in the form of County Hospitals and for profit hospitals.
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