Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum What think technicians about of max's temperament?

RXD, I was educted with 3 strings sounding, and indeed that is how the unison is tested, but dont you think it is easier to learn, to tune 2 "doublets" of 2 strings , that may have a smiliar construction, so they mix in an unity when they are ringing together ?

I dont talk of the final result, but the facility of the method, to learn, I believe it is easier to tune 2+2 than to tune 2+1, if you see what I mean.

I am sorry if that method can lend to some difficulties.

A = 440 I'm beating on key. I before put the mute (felt) to silence the other both. I'm put the mute before average and upper string. And I listen down string. If need I'm understate or lowers the it's sound. When a mute before average and down,find right sound upper string. I strongly beat on a key - a hammer beating on a 3 strings immediately and listen carefully. If I'm do not hear the accordion waves it's so ready unison

Thank you for taking the time to do this Patrick. Very informative.

Roger Kirk published a 1959 study in the Journal of the Acoustical Society, where hid did essentially what you've done with your recordings, and then asked a number of trained and untrained listeners which 'flavor' unison they preferred. I had a hard time believing the conclusion he came to - that people could prefer a unison that could be as much as 1 cent or 2 cents out.

The wide unison you produced with -1 cent in the left string and +1 cent in the right string is 2 cents out/wide. And it gives an indication of one of the types of unisons Kirk's subjects were listening to. One which they said they liked! Hard to believe, but there it is.

Chris S.

Abstract of his paper:
"Unison strings of a concert grand piano were tuned to five “unison” conditions. The conditions were “zero‐beat” tuning and the upper string of three string unison groups tuned sharp and the lower string tuned flat by ½, 1, 2, and 3 cents relative to the center string. Magnetic tape recordings were made of the piano tuned under these conditions. These recordings in the form of a paired comparison preference test were presented to musically trained and untrained subjects. The most preferred tuning conditions for three string unison groups as recorded and reproduced from magnetic tape, are 1 and 2 cents maximum deviation among strings. Musically trained subjects prefer less deviation in tuning among unison strings than do untrained subjects. Close agreement was found between the subject′s tuning preferences and the way artist tuners actually tune piano unison strings."

For a student tuner, perfectly still unisons are the only guide to how well the pins are set. If they are well set, the unison can stay in tune until a culmination of atmospheric changes destroys it. While it is nice to talk of the studies, every concert department I have worked for, and there are many, insists on still unisons. There are many because I love to live in different places and I have found work in most countries this way.

Right here, right now, those interested in Maxs progress will ask for still unisons as a reliable guide to his pin setting.

Isaac, I have no problem how this unison is attained, 2&2 or2&1 just so the final result is three strings sounding as one. This is purely as an excercise in tuning technique and it's assessment.

Ando. I have experience only of automatic translators into Japanese They use dictionaries and are at their best when exact words are used whether they are well known, commonly used words or not. You are right though, I have a tendency towards a turn of phrase when writing to posters I know.

I believe that the technique rxd is alluding to is demonstrated quite well by the following photo. This is what many tuners regard as the optimum technique, albeit a 'classic' one. I use a similar technique, but choose to have my thumb a little closer to the pin (further down the lever).



Rxd, please correct me if this isn't what you're describing as I don't want to add to the confusion that this thread is causing for Max.

That's exactly it, Dan. It adds greatly. Holding the lever that way gives ultimate control.
A picture says 1000 words. Thank you.

There certainly is no use in me using this thumb technique if like me, you tune uprights with your left hand .... the thumb does however come into its own when tuning grands using the right hand. I wonder how many tuners are trained to use left for uprights and right for grands these days ? Not many I suspect.

Current college students at Newark College are instructed to use their left hand for uprights and their right for grands. In my opinion, this upright technique in the photo is easily transferred to a grand piano, so becomes an efficient use of time in regards to learning.

That's good to hear Dan ... the reason for using different hands is all to do with a far better counteraction on the effect that flagpolling has. I appreciate many tuners tend to use levers right-handed and still manage very good stability, but in my training days, it was never considered best practice because wrestpins tend to bend in a counter productive way.

The important thing is to develop a feel, so you can tell whether the pins are rotating (good) or bending (bad).

Yes the logical behind it is understandeable, it must also be easier for the body.

To avoid the problems on the pinblock , the thumb is used, but I belive after some time the classical posture is mostly used to have a better control on the axis of rotation with the lever. I for instance apply some light pressure in direction of the back of the piano.

Once used to any pin deformation, any method to hold the lever can be used because you know what the pin is doing, if it is more twisted, it need more time to stabilise, that is the main problem with slow pull, the advantage being of a very firm setting (active setting, if opposed as neutral setting)


For a starter , it is necessary to learn first yo control the wire motion.

Strangely, nobody stressed the importance of the playing hand.

The playing hand even help to listen.

VERY IMPORTANT : RAISE THE ANCKLE TO PROTECT YOUR BACK ON TALL PIANOS.

Isaac, You are so right about the feeling of wire motion. It is of supreme importance when a piano has to be tuned quietly or in older pianos or pianos with steep capos or other high friction. It is generally thought that a heavy blow on the key will take care of it but this assumes that piano tuners can hit a key harder than anyone else !!!!.
We ignore it at our peril.

In general, it would be nice to define our terms. We all talk of bending, flexing, flagpoling, deforming pins interchangeably. Are there some subtle differences that I'm missing?? To be really pedantic, tuning pins don't do any of these things in the normal course of tuning or stringing. Put one in a vise and try to bend it with your favourite tuning tool. The rigid pin moves in the wood. Is there a term that anybody uses? Flagpoling creates the most accurate picture of them all for me.

Thanks, Johnkie, I had forgotten left handed tuning for uprights. One of my teachers tuned uprights that way yet he was quite comfortable with me using my right hand. Then he tells me that he was taught to tune with a T hammer.

I used lefthanded tuning for a time when I had to tune uprights tucked in corners as so many are. As I remember, I took to it quite easily, I don't know why I changed back. Don't you find yourself using the three fingers on the lower part of the handle as a sort of fulcrum?

It seems some methods seek to neutralise the effect of flagpoling, some to control it, yet others to glory in it.

Hi rxd.

I did some testing with Klinke tuning pins, and it is relatively easy yo bend them definitively (while doing so in a pinblock ?) the resiliency of the metal of the pin is not that far of the wood of the block (hopefully, if not the blocks should wear way much than they do)
I am talking of first grade tuning pins. They ARE stressed by the wire to a significant point.

That is why I say on an old block having the piano at pitch can even help the tuning pin to keep its place .

If you manage the string so it will keep the pin in place , you only have to be attentive to hammer position, so to have no flagpoling at the moment the string set the pin....

I agree we use lot of terms . I talk of twist because I can twist a pin in its top segment around 50 cts before the foot of the pin move, sometime (talk of tuning from above !) this provide a lot of extra tension to lock the pin (I take care not to do so if I feel the strings are prone to break )

The way the pin is more or less stiffened by the string change the tone.
Extra active setting raise the fundamental, tend to lower ih, make a more american tone.(partials straightened and lining more quietly, less brillancy/transparency)

Lighter setting left the string more free, more brillant and lively tone, less long lasting. Could be used for tone reasons then. ( but mostly for time constrain)

With time and many tunings even a moderate pin setting have its place . But it takes numerous tunings to get there.

The pins are way softer than a steel bolt. They flex and spring back . The block also have some flex that id , when it is new.

To me flagpoling is when the effort is oriented sideways not in direction of the string axis. (I wondered some time if this was not ONLY when the tuner nudge the hammer)

Twist is in the axis of the pin (i.e. a torque with similar pressure than the one exerted by the wire on the diameter of the pin , generates an approx 1° twist of the pin on itself)..to be computed more precisely...

Some bending occur as well but mostly if the lever is pushed on may be it can bend the pin definitively at some point depending of the quality of the pin .


The springiness of the pin can be raised if the pin is made stiffer by twisting it on itself. Then the tuner have optimum control on a too stretched wire, moving more easily across friction points as long enough energy is provided by the playing hand.

More usual way of tuning send impulse trains along the whole springy assembly.

I very much like your "springiness" term for the wrestpin Oleg! It's exactly what we tuners have to struggle with in order to accomplish a first class tuning that will stand the test of time .... something essential if completing concert work. In all of my 47 years as a tuner I've never had cause to worry about bending a wrestpin whilst working. The risk of exerting so much force during tuning that leads to a wrestpin bending or damage to a plank (block)is very much only something in the domain of either the less experienced or downright bad tuners.

When large adjustments are needed, such as pitch raising, then one only has the option of turning the wrestpin to somewhere near target... always pulling sharp of target and dropping down. It's pointless spending time trying to get perfection in these situations ... not only are your fighting with setting the pin, but the change in tension of every individual string affects the neighbouring strings, as the bridge and soundboard flexes in response to the extra loads.

Now, returning to the subject of "bending, flexing, flagpoling or my preferred ... springiness" ... When the tuning is near enough to only warrant a touch up ... I guess something RxD, myself and many others here do all the time ... then it becomes impossible to end up with a stable tuning unless you approach the task from the angle of working with the springiness of the pin to obtain the tiny adjustments needed to get as near perfection as possible. Turning a wrestpin in these situations tends only to result in instability. The adjustments needed are so small that a light nudge is all that is needed initially, after which one merely has to work with the "springiness" of the wrestpin to stabilise the final target. Anyone worrying too much about bending, flagpoling, or damaging a plank during tuning should maybe consider taking up another profession...the force needed in fine tuning is in truth .... featherlight.

Apologies for going slightly off topic, but I worry that so many here appear to be in danger of brutalising their patients when finesse is all that is needed.

Yes John, certainly we dont bend definitively pins in normal curse of tuning (while I heard of pin that wher find bend when dismounting them (possibly bend at the time they where hammered during stringing, dont you think?)

I consider now that on a given piano (in moderately adverse hygrometry conditions, so not pitch correction is needed at each tuning) at some point the tuner install a "definitive pin setting" which is locating the "bed" of the tuning pin at the very bottom of the hole, the portion above that point being braked in the wood by the tension coming from the wire.

It seem that toobtain this, a huge pin's firmness is necessary, but I was surprised to discover that it was not an absolute necessity.

Of course the level of springness allowed by the couple pin/pinblock (to counteract the 75 Kg springness of the wire) is higher with a firm block, but due to the springness of the pin itself, I wonder if a softer torque in the block can not be raised artificially.

It is by evidence and as I experimented, with the tiny twisting of the pin on itself ,even if the twist is half a degree it makes the pin spring inside the hole, and obtain a better grip by opposite forces on the walls of the hole.

BTW this is "normal" pin setting, simply to "charge " a pin in an old block one need more slow manipulations, while in a firm block this can be done in automatic mode by the rebound of the wave coming from the wire with the test blow

Then the front segment can be a little more tense than the sounding lenght

By the conter clockwise move of the tuning pin, usually done to take out the stress installed in the pin while raising pitch, but can be made "active" if the pin is left volontary stressed/torqued the other direction.

- For the pin itself


For years I was subtle in my pin setting, I mean I left the pin in a very neutral position, in a way anticipating its future turning/twisting)

That mean I find pianos more firm after they have been played, I was very proud of my ability to anticipate the way the system will be stiffer - But despite the braking that occur most of the time, I did not obtain a really firm pin setting, that mean it was very easy to move the pin later, more to raise the tone than to lower but I felt not so much resistance than with the tunings of some colleagues (where I find the tuning pin hard to unlock any direction)

So I basically obtained a "natural", neutral, pin setting, where the pin is hold in place by the upper segment tension, but not so firm at its bottom.

A little less thickness of tone, more energy lost may be between the upper segment and the pin as the "knot" is located there it makes also a portion of the system that damp vibrations.

THen I was shown how the slow pull tuning could raise the stiffness of the pin a bit more, allowing for a front segment a bit more tense.
Tone wise there is much energy that goes thru the pinblock, the fixation of the string is more firm in an audible way.

With the diseavantage that the tendency if a string goes out of tune, is to raise, more than lower (particularely if the stiffening have been done too much)

Once experimented with those two extremes, you can manipulate the system in any way you want.

The really huge advantage of manipulating the wire and pin with all that extra torque is precision, the feeling of the wire is straightforward on most pianos.
Then once the string and pin are "charged" one another the whole system can be manipulated very lightly and precisely, as you say John, or RXD, moving a hair the whole stiffened system is possible.
But first at one point the "definitive bed" of the tuning pin have to be created.
It would be interesting to examine the inside of the tuning pin hole with a micrometer, and notice where the deformations occur.

If I want to join what you say RXD, we can consider the pin is rigid, and why not the string also, I really feel like manipulating a very rigid part when tuning; rigid yes, but only to the point it can vibe as does the string, the upper segments, and very probably the tuning pin itself.

What is surprising is how I find the torque left in the tuning pin, when I come later, most of the notes have kept the same equilibrium even on old blocks.
The one that don't creates some "black holes", and generally speaking the attack is not as incisive it was originally, but pitch wise I don't experiment much motion (I find a piano raised to 444 however, due to stiff tuning pins probably)

Originally I was explained that we allow a little security by allowing the front segment (and pin) to be a little over tense and that, for concert or heavily played pianos.

The logic behind it was that a raised string will not be noticed as much as the opposite , in an unison.

I actually put most of the effect on the pin itself, hence the risk of raise.

Hard blows are yet necessary as tests.

Feeling (measuring) the level of elongation in the string, upper segment and tuning pin, is necessary when installing that first raising to pitch , with some evaluation of the bridge motion (overpull mode)

Final nudging require then very little modification to the pin posture,if any, as you state.

The game remain to install the tuning in one pass , but this is more a personal challenge than anything else.

Most pianos I tune now are in need of "large touch up" next year, that mean, high treble and low basses are correct, and the zone that moved, in the mediums is smaller than usually.

No need to use any equipment to see the obvious depreciation the wooden part is at the bottom of the bush and in the upper portion of the hole in pinblock verticals. At the grand opposite happens

dancarney,the vertical piano need tuning to lever handle only 9-12 (left or right) hand. This method saves the resource mounting seat of wood

MAX I am sorry writing too long and too complicated things.

I tell you now the first, most effective and simple method to learn how to manipulate the lever and tuning pin.

On a vertical old piano :

0° install the mute or felt strip

Make tour lever in direction of the strings (12:00 13:00)

1° turn VERY lightly the pin IN REVERSE direction, may be 1° is enough so to feel the BOTTOM of the pin moved a little.

2° Then DO NOT TRY TO TURN the pin first when you begin to move it
Try to FEEL the bottom of the pin motion

A which moment does it move ? (On old pianos it moves often immediately)

Try to find some springiness in the pin, that mean on a vertical, you turn it so slowly that the tone change while the bottom of the pin does not move yet.

Try to have the bottom of the pin move later of your motion with the lever

That move is what you will install (partially) in the other direction to lock the pin.

If there is no way (the bottom of pin moves always immediately) go on reverse (counterclockwise) once again, and if not, once again , etc (it can be necessary to do so 3 to 6 times before the pin begin to grip a little at its bottom.

If it does not, you can tap a little the pin with a hammer( push it 1-2 mm in the block), or repair.

Usually if the tuning pin cannot provide any differential motion between the higher region and the bottom, the tuning will not stay put.

ON A VERTICAL, TURN AS WASHING A WINDOW, IN THE ROTATIONAL PLANE
------

ON a YAMAHA grand piano for instance (with normal pins):

Put the mute between 2 strings

Put the lever at 13:00, 14:00

Add SLOWLY some torque to the lever IN THE ROTATIONAL PLANE OF THE PIN USE YOUR THUMB TO MAKE THAT EXACT MOTION - the pin deform, but the tone does not change

DO NOT TRY TO CHANGE THE NOTE WITH THE LEVER

ALLOW ONLY THE STRESS ON THE LEVER, AND HAVE THE STRING MOVE BECAUSE YOUR OTHER HAND PLAY THE NOTE REPEATEDLY AND OFTEN

DONT TRY TO LISTEN FOR BEATS AT THAT STAGE


WHEN YOU HEAR THE NOTE CHANGING, ADD MORE PRESSURE TO THE LEVER UNTIL YOU HEAR IT "CRACK"

TUNE WITH THE PLAYING HAND, NOT WITH THE LEVER ONLY

YOU WILL FEEL THE SENSATIONS CHANGING IN THE LEVER.

THOSE ARE THE SENSATIONS YOU NEED TO RECOGNISE THRU THE LEVER AND THAT ALLOW TO SPRING THE PIN IN DIFFERNT POSITIONS,

YAMAHA BASIC INSTRUCTIONS ARE :

PLAY THE NOTE REPEATEDLY
STRESS THE LEVER
WAIT FOR THE PIN TO CRACK (move at its bottom)

IT IS SIMILAR ON VERTICAL PIANOS ACTUALLY, WE ARE OFTEN OBLIGED TO BRAKE THE UPPER REGION OF THE PIN WITH SOME PRESSURE SO THE BOTTOM MOVE LATER. ON AN OLD BLOCK

DO NOT TRY TO TUNE BEFORE HAVING ENOUGH SPRINGNESS IN THE TUNING PIN

SORRY FOR THE CAPITALS

PUT MUTE
PUSH COUNTERCLOCKWISE
TURN VERY SLOWLY UNTIL THE PIN MOVE
USE THE PLAYING HAND TO MOVE THE STRING

USE A VERY RIGID TUNING LEVER

HARPSICHORD USE NOT PIN SETTING HENCE THE USE OF T LEVERS

IT CAN BE DONE BUT IT IS MORE DIFFICULT WE NEED MORE FORCE THAN WHAT IS AVAILABLE WITH T LEVER

DO NOT TRY TO LISTEN FOR BEATS, TRY FIRST TO PLAY THE NOTES OFTEN ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH THE ENERGY NEEDED TO MOVE ALL PARTS.

THE ERA HEAR THE TONE GETTING BETTER ALMOST AUTOMATICALLY
THEN ONLY YOU CAN LISTEN TO DETAILS

see that rough tuning :
[video:youtube]gPFgX4mhJ_E[/video]

the tuner goes very slowly and unstress the pin and wire before

YOU WILL UNDERTAND THAT BETTER LATER MAX, DO JUST WHAT WE SAY TO YOU

CERTAINLY NOT RIGHT (15:00) ON A VERTICAL THAT IS THE WORSE FOR THE BED OF THE PIN


I begin to believe you are particularly stupid


I understand your need to be a hero of pianos, by discovering something new, but in my opinion you are yet by trying to take care of the pianos where you live (unless there is some real tuner active and discrete yet in the region)

You will be a real hero for me the day you will have understood and provide an usual tuning with standard techniques.

And I, for sure say that you will then have some merit, due to the difficulty you have to just do what is explained to you.

Meanwhile there are a few tuners without master have understood how to obtain a good setting and they are now working justness. (then they will eventually need an even more precise method with tuning lever but we have to go step by step)