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Joined: Feb 2010
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It is important for budding musicians to develop a good sense of tone, which can't be done if the piano is out of tune, particularly if the unisons are out. Also, kids don't enjoy playing if the piano sounds bad or doesn't play right. I see it all the time. I believe that the whole piano being evenly flat is very different from "unisons out". If the whole piano is evenly flat, it can still play perfectly right and not sound bad. If you're a clarinetist, floutist, or a singer, yeah, absolute pitch is pretty darn important if you're playing with a piano, and these musicians will complain if the piano significantly deviates from concert pitch. Why? These instruments can all be tuned to compensate some flatness, no, they NEED to be tuned all the time! "It sounds terrible but my parents don't care because they can't hear it." . Those pianos are probably not tuned for years and not evenly flat and have a rotten action. Again, there are different types of being "out of tune" and OP did not talk about bad actions. Anyone having a ref to that Yamaha extensive research, or other solid research on this?
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Joined: Mar 2009
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>Do you all think it matters to a toddler whether he hears in-tune music vs. flat music? Does it impact the toddlers singing voice?
First, I'm not a teacher and no expert on this. But I don't see much evidence for above remarks that "Out of tune pianos are detrimental to musical enjoyment and development".
I agree that the piano intervals need to be in tune.
But the absolute pitch is much less relevant IMHO. I think it's much more important that you like the sound and that the intervals are tuned properly than that the absolute pitch is correct.
I heard that toddlers have a chance to learn absolute pitch. And out-of-tune pianos might prevent that from developing. But I'm not so convinced that absolute pitch is such a bless. In practice, many pianos are a bit off; orchestras pick a higher pitch (A443); old instruments and baroque orchestras pick A420 to A425. In the past concert pitch was A430.6. Some even reported A370. Händels tuning fork was A421.5.
Yes, it matters a great deal. Toddlers tell us all the time in schools "my piano doesn't sound like my piano teachers piano. It sounds terrible but my parents don't care because they can't hear it." You don't know how many times I hear that in the course of one year. Dozens and dozens and dozens of times. Yamaha did an extensive study back in the 70's I believe it was and they found that badly out of tune and badly out of pitch pianos, were the NUMBER ONE CAUSE of kids no longer wanting to take lessons. Very, VERY close behind it, almost a number one as well, were pianos that played horribley. Sticking keys. Regulation was way off meaning the touch was all screwy. One note played, the next one didn't. One note played easily, the next note played hard. There is no way that anyone can learn how to properly play on a piano that is A. Out of tune. B. Off from pitch. C plays terribly. D. has notes that do not work. Yes, there have been MANY studies done to prove this to be true and we as technicians see it on a regular basis and it is true. +1
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Joined: Dec 2011
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Do you guys realize that a toddler is a child between the ages of 2 to 3? LOL wondering what kind of kids you guys are hanging around that can complain about the piano's being out of tune or that they sound different from their teachers! I'm sure your actually talking about young children here? 
Becca Began: 01-12-11 ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/ABF_Medals/1medal.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/forumpicts/MOYD12/MOYD_2.gif) Roland RD300NX
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Joined: Nov 2007
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6000 Post Club Member
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It is important for budding musicians to develop a good sense of tone, which can't be done if the piano is out of tune, particularly if the unisons are out. Also, kids don't enjoy playing if the piano sounds bad or doesn't play right. I see it all the time. I believe that the whole piano being evenly flat is very different from "unisons out". If the whole piano is evenly flat, it can still play perfectly right and not sound bad. If you're a clarinetist, floutist, or a singer, yeah, absolute pitch is pretty darn important if you're playing with a piano, and these musicians will complain if the piano significantly deviates from concert pitch. Why? These instruments can all be tuned to compensate some flatness, no, they NEED to be tuned all the time! "It sounds terrible but my parents don't care because they can't hear it." . Those pianos are probably not tuned for years and not evenly flat and have a rotten action. Again, there are different types of being "out of tune" and OP did not talk about bad actions. Anyone having a ref to that Yamaha extensive research, or other solid research on this? I wasn't talking about bad actions either or I would have said so. I was talking about tuning. Tuning has nothing to do with the "mechanics of the piano." That's a whole different ball game. For years, I carried around a copy of Yamaha's study handing them out on a regular basis but I carry enough junk in my trunk as it is. I dumped them 30 years ago. Yamaha may still have the study somewhere. I couldn't tell you. There is proof out there in other studies too. If you read online about musical studies, lots of studies have been done. It does help kids to do better in math for example. So, your car needs an oil change every 3,000 miles "give or take." You don't believe it's that necessary so you're going to give the car an oil change once ever 15,000 miles instead or longer. How long do you think the car will last under those conditions? In other words, it doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is what's recommended for the product. You can do whatever you like with that information.
Jerry Groot RPT Piano Technicians Guild Grand Rapids, Michigan www.grootpiano.comWe love to play BF2.
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Joined: May 2001
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
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If the unisons are good and the piano is in tune with itself I don't see why it being flat would be detrimental in the slightest. In fact, unless one had perfect pitch I don't think one would even know the piano wasn't at A440. OTOH I'd guess that in this case the piano does have insuromountable problems with the unisons and relative pitch which just makes it unpleasant to listen to.
Last edited by pianoloverus; 01/24/13 08:20 PM.
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 187
Full Member
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IMHO there are multiple valid points here, but they are answers to different questions that its important to differentiate. - If the child is learning the piano, then certainly having a good piano with good action/touch, and thats well tuned is important to the students enjoyment and likelihood of continuing. That does not appear to be the question the OP is asking. - If the intervals and unisons are badly out of tune, that could certainly impact a youngsters musical development, as they learn to "do" music by mimicking what they hear, just as they learn to talk by mimicking the voice sounds of the people around them. The OP has not stated this is the case, although it could be, he just stated the piano is flat. IMHO at this age (2-3) the value of regular exposure to participatory music, and the child's perception of the enjoyment the parents get out of making music are _far_ more important than whether the piano is flat or not. If you can get the unisons and intervals to hold a decent relative pitch (with the help of some minor work if needed), and you enjoy playing the old upright more than the keyboard, I say play on  Just my 2c. Or maybe in the case of this piano, its more like 50c Rob
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