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#2022669 - 01/28/13 07:48 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
I think you've had a tough week with this one mate ... thumb
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#2022678 - 01/28/13 08:08 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
anotherscott Offline
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Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3328
BTW, a post from a NAMM visitor on another site commented on the nice FLAT top of the VPC. That should also tell you something about how "curved" it is. ;-)

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#2022691 - 01/28/13 08:34 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Officially, Kawai has opted not to get involved in a numbers game regarding the exact pivot length. It's as long as a Kawai grand piano key pivot length - this should be sufficient information for most consumers.

Kawai also makes the 9' EX, a couple of 5' grands, and some stuff in between. OK, I'll err on the safe side and assume it's based on a 5' action, thanks!
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#2022703 - 01/28/13 08:46 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
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Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9410
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: dewster
thanks!


No problem! wink
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2022731 - 01/28/13 09:58 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Kawai James

I've just uploaded the VPC Editor software to the Kawai Japan 'Worldwide' site:

http://www.kawai.co.jp/worldwide/support/downloads.html

Windows users are welcome to give it a try without the VPC1 connected in 'demo' mode (i.e. no settings are saved) and check out the various features.


I'm assuming that an editor and drivers for OS-X will be released, hopefully in the near future. I would not consider purchasing a VPC1 otherwise.
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#2022869 - 01/28/13 02:26 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: anotherscott]
Hideki Matsui Offline
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Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
BTW, a post from a NAMM visitor on another site commented on the nice FLAT top of the VPC. That should also tell you something about how "curved" it is. ;-)


That's great to hear. That was my only concern.

I'm definitely getting one of these. There are so many different types of controllers available, but so few that offer a great action, solid build quality, pleasing aesthetics and real estate for other devices. The price is a little high IMO, but only by a few hundred dollars.

The A88 I just bought will get a quick turnaround.

One quick question Kawai James. Once I create curves on a PC and import them to the VPC, will they be effective when I hook the VPC up to my Jupiter and Mac?
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#2022913 - 01/28/13 03:23 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: dewster]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Officially, Kawai has opted not to get involved in a numbers game regarding the exact pivot length. It's as long as a Kawai grand piano key pivot length - this should be sufficient information for most consumers.

Kawai also makes the 9' EX, a couple of 5' grands, and some stuff in between. OK, I'll err on the safe side and assume it's based on a 5' action, thanks!
Your nekid pictures with a measure band + the readily available pictures of the GF and RM3 make this easy to measure.
Just relate the key lengths to the pivot point distance of the two quite accuarately. (I judged it at the modells at the store side by side - I didn't bother to do the measurements actually, but one could make this easily too given the fact key layout is quite standardised for more than a century (length/position of black/white keys).

I was astonished to see the GF very significantly longer than the RM3 - perhaps some 2-3 cm longer.

As I said previously, I am not sure beyond some point bigger key length is improving playability significantly (or at all.) On bigger grands it is dictated simply by the longer strings which have to be hitted far from their end - you need a longer hammer mechanics.

Another question whether there is a mechanical or geometrical difference (improvement?) between the RM3 or RM3 II or this all is up to the added third sensor.

I am very interested in an answer to whether RM3II is that much better than RH2. (I need above all smooth touch for my older and sensitive fingers - and a quiet one too).


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#2022938 - 01/28/13 04:08 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
HisKidd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 198
Loc: AL/USA
James...
Is the Kawai F-30 foot pedal unique to the new VPC? Will it work with other Kawai stage pianos (MP-10; MP-6), and can it be purchased separately? I've checked Kawai on line; and several of the instrument/musician outlets, but haven't had any luck finding the F-30, only the F-20.
Regards,
H.K. cool
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#2023009 - 01/28/13 06:17 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Temperament]
gvfarns Offline
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Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Temperament
Another question whether there is a mechanical or geometrical difference (improvement?) between the RM3 or RM3 II or this all is up to the added third sensor.


I would like to know this too. I think we are all operating under the assumption that RM3II is just RM3 with a third sensor and that RH2 is the same as RH with a third sensor. I'd love confirmation on that, though.

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#2023040 - 01/28/13 07:55 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Peter B]
Amaruk Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/02/11
Posts: 805
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Peter B
Apart from the excellent action I really do find it good for mind and soul only to have a nice piano'ish cabinet and not a controller full of lights, knobs, sliders, modwheels and sounds you never want to use when playing piano - or maybe never want to use at all.

Good points. Another option would be a console piano like CA-65/CA-95/CS-10. Below is my RD-700NX that I use for silent practice only. The sliders etc are covered up when the piano is not in use.





Edited by Amaruk (01/28/13 08:13 PM)
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#2023063 - 01/28/13 08:27 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: In A Silent Way]
TubularBills Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/28/12
Posts: 9
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: In A Silent Way

Interesting, but now in my music studio I'll have to have at least a cheap 25 keys controller on top of the VPC1 with blinking red lights and flashy colours&designs just because I'll miss the minimal mod wheel, pitch wheel, and a pressure controller.


Well, I think one might consider it the other way round.
Lots of musicians already have a midi keyboard in their studio, powered monitors, controllers and what not. In my case, I already own a 61 notes light action master keyboard with a modwheel which I'm happy with - as far as organs and synths are concerned. But I missed a good weighted action midi keyboard for piano. Other people might own a krome, a kurzweil or anything filled with great sounds - but deprived of a good wooden action. So they already have the lights and flashy colours anyway.
If I were one of these people, I'd be happy not to have to pay for the whole thing (action+ sounds) again. There the VPC1 is the perfect deal : for those who need the action, only the action. The velocity curves are of less importance to me.


Edited by TubularBills (01/28/13 08:30 PM)

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#2023073 - 01/28/13 08:51 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: HisKidd]
chicolom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: HisKidd
James...
Is the Kawai F-30 foot pedal unique to the new VPC? Will it work with other Kawai stage pianos (MP-10; MP-6), and can it be purchased separately? I've checked Kawai on line; and several of the instrument/musician outlets, but haven't had any luck finding the F-30, only the F-20.
Regards,
H.K. cool


It looks to me like it's basically an F-20 pedal and an F-10H pedal mounted into the same housing, as their are two plugs coming out of it. I'd assume it connects and works the same way as plugging and F-20 into the Foot switch jack and an F-10 into the Damper jack.

Of course, some confirmation would be nice though.
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#2023162 - 01/29/13 12:30 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
thercman Offline
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Registered: 12/15/12
Posts: 147
Loc: Spokane WA, United States
I must say that I am a bit surprised that there wasn't a bundled VST with the VPC1... Maybe they should have included CDROM that was preloaded with one of the 4 shown or even something else. By doing that it would at open the door to people who are just starting out (1st time buyers). After spending nearly 2k they don't want to hear the sales person say now you need to spend another $300 on virtual pianos in order to play it..... That might drive people away from the product. Just a thought. Personally I'll still buy one, but I already a have a couple VST's and two synths.
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#2023216 - 01/29/13 02:42 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: gvfarns]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9410
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Hello chaps,

Below are some responses to your queries/comments.

Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
I'm assuming that an editor and drivers for OS-X will be released, hopefully in the near future.


I am hopeful, as this has been quite a strong request so far. However, I am not the person responsible for making this decision.

Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
One quick question Kawai James. Once I create curves on a PC and import them to the VPC, will they be effective when I hook the VPC up to my Jupiter and Mac?


Yes, the VPC editor stores settings directly to the VPC1's internal memories. So once your custom touch curves etc. are programmed in, you will not need to connect the PC unless you decide to change something again.

Originally Posted By: Temperament
Another question whether there is a mechanical or geometrical difference (improvement?) between the RM3 or RM3 II or this all is up to the added third sensor.


Geometrically 'RM3 Grand' and 'RM3 Grand II' are the same, however the construction is a little different, in addition to the third sensor.

Originally Posted By: Temperament
I am very interested in an answer to whether RM3II is that much better than RH2.


Officially, I cannot really answer such a subjective question. However, if you were to ask me as an individual, which keyboard action would I rather own - obviously, 'RM3 Grand II' every time. wink

Originally Posted By: HisKidd
Is the Kawai F-30 foot pedal unique to the new VPC?


Currently, yes. However, we may decide to introduce this unit as a standalone accessory for existing MP users (see below) in the future if there is strong demand.

Originally Posted By: HisKidd
Will it work with other Kawai stage pianos (MP-10; MP-6)?


Due to the technical design of the F-30, I believe it will only function correctly (i.e. as a triple pedal unit) with the MP8, MP8II, and MP10 (i.e. not the MP5 or MP6). And even then, a software update would be required each of those models.

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I think we are all operating under the assumption that RM3II is just RM3 with a third sensor...


...yes, plus the improved key frame construction.

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
...and that RH2 is the same as RH with a third sensor.


Yes, this is more or less correct.

I hope this helps to answer your queries chaps!

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2023222 - 01/29/13 02:52 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: thercman]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9410
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: thercman
I must say that I am a bit surprised that there wasn't a bundled VST with the VPC1...


I believe it would be a little difficult to do so without aggravating the other VI developers we partnered with.

Originally Posted By: thercman
Maybe they should have included CDROM that was preloaded with one of the 4 shown or even something else.


With the exception of Pianoteq, I do not believe any modern virtual piano packages are shipped on CD-ROM.

Originally Posted By: thercman
By doing that it would at open the door to people who are just starting out (1st time buyers). After spending nearly 2k they don't want to hear the sales person say now you need to spend another $300 on virtual pianos in order to play it.....


I understand the point you are making, however I would like to think that VPC1 customers will appreciate that the controller does not include virtual piano software.

Originally Posted By: thercman
Personally I'll still buy one, but I already a have a couple VST's and two synths.


Sounds like a great combo. wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2023242 - 01/29/13 03:37 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
chicolom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 69
James, thanks for all the great answers - especially in regards to the questions about actions. Obviously people interested in this board are particularly picky and discerning about action, and so you get lots of nagging questions about it smile

Speaking of which....

Could you elaborate on why the choice was made to opt for RM3II over GF in the VPC? I'm not trying to complain or sound negative at all, I'm just genuinely curious about what factors determine the choices Kawai makes on which actions to choose for their particular keyboards.

For example, if size and weight was a concern that guided that decision, I think a most people interested in the VPC wouldn't care about an extra couple inches or pounds added to the VPC considering how they're going to be using it.

If it was cost, I'd be curious to know what the cost difference between the VPC with RM3II or GF would approximately be. I wouldn't mind if Kawai just ripped off the top of one of their CA or CS series with GF (perhaps whittled down the case size to be tighter though) and stick a midi jack on it. smile

Thanks


Edited by chicolom (01/29/13 03:44 AM)
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#2023249 - 01/29/13 04:05 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
@chicolom

Good question. Considering size and weight , you're indeed right that most people buying this board won't be carrying around the VPC anyway. On the other hand GF would have definitely prevented the option to take the board to a gig or elsewhere due to increased size and weight. And there ARE pro's who do lug their MP10's onto stage, so with the choice for RM3 II , Kawai may have given people at least the option to take the VPC with you - where GF would have prevented this altogether. In that respect I understand the decision. Completely apart from the price difference it would have introduced.

Also the RM3 II was due to arrive anyway, because at some point there must be a successor to the MP10 in the make and that couldn't possibly be with GF either, if it was supposed to be 'portable' in any way.

In terms of price the VPC with GF may have cost only little less than a CA65 and equal to an MP10, so that would make it difficult to sell against these models too.

Conclusion: RM3 II seems to make sense either way you look at it.

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#2023252 - 01/29/13 04:23 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: dewster]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2223
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: dewster

The difference is in velocity resolution post curving. If you pass 128 values (0-127) through a non trivial function and want 128 out, some values will be missing and/or some will be duplicated - so you need more values going in than coming out. Most keyboard encoders have excess internal resolution to cope with this.

If the controller kicks out high-res MIDI (2^14 values) this is pretty much moot and you can do the curve anywhere you want with impunity. Though the curve is traditionally in the controller (for the reason above) so there may be limited to no curve control in stand-alone sound modules.


Agreed/understood, however it is conceivable that the instrument will actually interpolate between points, in which case essentially no steps will be lost. I checked with Pianoteq support, and it actually does interpolate in this way.
No idea about all the others yet.

There is always the issue of whether or not the controller is capturing the dynamic range of the player appropriately though, especially for standard MIDI resolution. For example, if the player can never reach velocities above, say, 100, then 27 steps will be lost, of course, no matter how the instrument processes the velocity.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (01/29/13 04:24 AM)

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#2023255 - 01/29/13 04:28 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9410
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Good question. This is also answered in the Q&A section of the VPC website, which we hope to have online tomorrow.

Here's a peek:

Quote:
Q. Why doesn’t the VPC1 use Kawai’s latest ‘Grand Feel’ (GF) keyboard action?

A. The ‘Grand Feel’ (GF) keyboard action is currently reserved for Kawai’s flagship ‘Concert Artist’ digital piano instruments. Moreover, it would not be possible to include the ‘Grand Feel’ action in the VPC1 without a considerable increase to the chassis size.

Therefore, we decided to utilise an enhanced version of the MP10’s ‘RM3 Grand’ action, which is widely considered the most realistic keyboard action available in a slab-type/portable instrument.


Regarding cost etc., please understand that this is confidential information that cannot be disclosed on a public forum.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2023257 - 01/29/13 04:30 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: JFP]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9410
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: JFP
Conclusion: RM3 II seems to make sense either way you look at it.


Correct.
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2023263 - 01/29/13 05:05 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
chicolom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 69
I see. Makes more sense now. Thanks for the responses smile

Ugh, I want one...

BTW, what's the cheapest Kawai DP with GF action? I know the CA65 and CA95 have it, but I'm not sure what else has it. Is there a list/chart/publication somewhere of which keyboards have which actions?

I also saw from NAMM that the CS7 and CS10 have it it, but I'm not where those fall in price compared to the CA series. I assumed the CS series is less premium than the CA series, AKA cheaper...
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#2023270 - 01/29/13 05:26 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: chicolom]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9410
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Yes, currently only the CA95, CA65, and newly introduced CS10 and CS7 instruments feature the 'Grand Feel' action.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2023315 - 01/29/13 08:09 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3328
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: thercman
I must say that I am a bit surprised that there wasn't a bundled VST with the VPC1...


I believe it would be a little difficult to do so without aggravating the other VI developers we partnered with.

Another approach could have been to bundle demo versions of all four pianos, and perhaps build into the price of the unit the ability to fully activate any one (assuming an arrangement could have been made that it would add less to the cost of the unit than what it would cost to buy any of them separately), with ideally a way to unlock additional ones as desired at a special price. Maybe the demo versions would only play through a special VST player that would introduce "flaws" into the sound of any non-purchased piano (like, an x second drop out every x seconds, or something like that). The point is, I'm sure there are ways to keep all the developers on an even playing field so as not to aggravate them. Next time...

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#2023316 - 01/29/13 08:17 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Vectistim Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 317
Loc: Reading, UK
I think Hauptwerk (organ software) does well with the demo versions. There is a free option with limited polyphony (256) and a few other limitations, but with that version you can try out the two higher versions, although when using them you get a periodic 'bong' and a paid licence operates via a dongle.

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#2023321 - 01/29/13 08:30 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
Qbert Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 328
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: Kawai James

Quote:
Q. Why doesn’t the VPC1 use Kawai’s latest ‘Grand Feel’ (GF) keyboard action?

A. The ‘Grand Feel’ (GF) keyboard action is currently reserved for Kawai’s flagship ‘Concert Artist’ digital piano instruments. Moreover, it would not be possible to include the ‘Grand Feel’ action in the VPC1 without a considerable increase to the chassis size.

Therefore, we decided to utilise an enhanced version of the MP10’s ‘RM3 Grand’ action, which is widely considered the most realistic keyboard action available in a slab-type/portable instrument.



That's a pitty. frown
It means that we will never see a VPC II with GF keyboard.
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#2023322 - 01/29/13 08:34 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
How do these 2 actions compare? Are they dramatically different?

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#2023337 - 01/29/13 09:00 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Qbert]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Qbert
That's a pitty. frown
It means that we will never see a VPC II with GF keyboard.


Right. It also probably means Kawai will not be producing a GF replacement for the MP10. Basically they are going to have a console and a slab action in parallel (like Yamaha with NW and NW-stage).

We've had people say GF is better than RM3 and we've also had the opposite, so I think it's a bit early to say which is better. Most forum members have not yet tried GF.

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#2023376 - 01/29/13 10:40 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Saw Muse last night. Glad to see Matt Bellamy is still using a Kawai onstage. James, any idea if that is still the MP8 or does he have a VPC in there already.
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Vintage Vibe 64
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#2023446 - 01/29/13 01:07 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: sullivang]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2223
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: me
I checked with Pianoteq support, and it actually does interpolate in this way.


Hmmm - even if it does interpolate the points that lie between the anchor points that are set by the user, it is not allowing the anchors to be set precisely - I can only change them in normal low-res steps. (unless there is some other way to feed it a high-res velocity curve - not sure). I might test all this out. Then again I might not.

Greg.

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#2023465 - 01/29/13 01:42 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: sullivang]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: sullivang
Agreed/understood, however it is conceivable that the instrument will actually interpolate between points, in which case essentially no steps will be lost. I checked with Pianoteq support, and it actually does interpolate in this way.

Very good point. Though the 128 steps are quantized in the controller, so data coming from it means "here is a velocity value that is within +/- 1/256th of the velocity I actually measured more precisely but can't tell you because of the limitations of the MIDI data format (7 bits)." That Pianoteq is capable of interpolating and using interpolating data means they aren't making the velocity uncertainty much worse, but they can't make it better due to the inherent quantization noise.
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