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#2020634 - 01/24/13 06:16 PM Re: Why all pianos are sampled not modeled? [Re: kapelli]
Nigeth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 104
Just for reference: Your state of the art 12 core would be a 2010 amd opteron at 2.5 GHz per Core and a MSRP of 1200 dollars.

Buying a computer at retil prices ith tht kind of performance will be in the 5000 to 10000 dollar ballpark.

A similar setup with two Core I7 6 core would set you back 4000 dollars just for the CPUs. The whole system also consumes about 400 to 500 watts of power.

Scaling a custom DSP system to that performance would probably be similarly expensive and would require probably more than 12 DSP cores. (more power per MHz but taps out at 400 MHz instead of 3 GHz) You'd also probably require a fan setup and a huge PSU

When you look at the kind of hardware that's used in current DPs and workstations I don't think that this would be in any way feasible.

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#2020781 - 01/24/13 10:18 PM Re: Why all pianos are sampled not modeled? [Re: Nigeth]
Macy Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 563
Originally Posted By: Nigeth
Just for reference: Your state of the art 12 core would be a 2010 amd opteron at 2.5 GHz per Core and a MSRP of 1200 dollars.

Buying a computer at retil prices ith tht kind of performance will be in the 5000 to 10000 dollar ballpark.

A similar setup with two Core I7 6 core would set you back 4000 dollars just for the CPUs. The whole system also consumes about 400 to 500 watts of power.

Scaling a custom DSP system to that performance would probably be similarly expensive and would require probably more than 12 DSP cores. (more power per MHz but taps out at 400 MHz instead of 3 GHz) You'd also probably require a fan setup and a huge PSU

When you look at the kind of hardware that's used in current DPs and workstations I don't think that this would be in any way feasible.


The kind of computing hardware used in current standalone DPs is archaic, but that is besides the point.

I said that "today's modeled pianos don't come close to using the CPU power available in today's most powerful computers". That is a simple fact. Pianoteq runs on a Core 2 Duo. That isn't even close to the computing power available in today's 12-core standard desktop computers. So Pianoteq doesn't come close to using the CPU power available in today's most powerful computers. Hence, my point is proven.

Your comments about price and power of desktop computers is totally irrelevant to my point.



Edited by Macy (01/24/13 11:42 PM)
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Ravenscroft 275, True Keys American D, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2020796 - 01/24/13 10:52 PM Re: Why all pianos are sampled not modeled? [Re: Nigeth]
Macy Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 563
Originally Posted By: Nigeth
Doing a custom DSP and FPGA Setup would require a much higher volume production run than you'd get for DPs


FPGA's are ideal for small volume production (I use them for products that sell a few hundred units lifetime), so I don't know what in the world you are talking about. The cost of custom silicon is prohibitive for small volume, which is why we use FPGA's for small volume. That and the ability to upgrade algorithms and performance in the field. But this is not a debate about manufacturing a DP at a particular price point, or with a particular margin. It is not a debate about whether a desktop computer costs $4K, $6K, or $10K.

You are hung up on cost and that is simply irrelevant to my point that the state-of-the-art in modeling is limited by algorithms, not computing power. Show me an implementation that produces much better sound quality that ONLY runs on a super computer. That would make your claim that much better algorithms are limited by computing power. I haven't heard of any such implementation. On the other hand, today's current algorithms (Pianoteq and V-Piano) run on computing solutions far inferior to what is available in off the shelf desktop computing, or that could be implemented using custom computing solutions.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Ravenscroft 275, True Keys American D, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2020884 - 01/25/13 03:53 AM Re: Why all pianos are sampled not modeled? [Re: kapelli]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2100
Loc: Sydney, Australia
FWIW, I do clearly recall a Pianoteq person saying that they wouldn't know what to do with extra CPU power, which does support what Macy is saying. It was in the Pianoteq forum on their web site. (sorry no link at the moment)

Greg.

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#2020904 - 01/25/13 04:36 AM Re: Why all pianos are sampled not modeled? [Re: 36251]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2475
Originally Posted By: 36251
But you'd think someone would build a modeling monster just to show that it can be done.


Yes, a first prototype that truly is authentic in regards to the real sounds of a concert grand, with no reservations in cost so that R&D can perfect it. Someone would need to make a substantial donation so that the work could be undertaken.

Just one sound needs to be "perfected" with modeling (perhaps a Steinway D, or, Kawai EX) so that the other modeled parameters would complement the sounds. Also, a purely modeled instrument needs the best projection of its sounds with a revolutionary speaker system equal to the task.

Questions:

1) So, the question is, how much money would realistically be needed to complete the project?

2) Exactly what would this prototype look like... as for cabinet, speakers, key action, etc?

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#2020908 - 01/25/13 04:41 AM Re: Why all pianos are sampled not modeled? [Re: kapelli]
Nigeth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 104
FPGAs are a sensible choice if you need custom silicon but can't afford to order an ASIC and you don't have to concern yourself too much with PCB size and power dissipation.

It's an alternative if a custom ASIC would not be financially feasible, it's more expensive though than the custom IC would be at volume and its also more expensive than a component off the shelf would be if you don't need the custom hardware.

Low-volume production at the gross margins of the instrument makers will probably use as many off the shelf components as possible.

Look we can argue all day about technology when all you do is focus on a single aspect of the product.

I'm 'hung up on cost' because in the real world people have to buy stuff with money they have to earn first.

If all I focus on is performance I could build a killer rig with the processing power of a small super computer that probably wouldn't be able to be exported from the US due to its classification as military hardware. It would also cost a lot of dough.

Then you end up with something like the Alpha piano at $30,000 or a V-Grand or Avant-Grand at $10,000 to $20,000 that still don't sound great.

At that price I could simply go and buy a real baby grand instead.

If we're talking about DPs here then there are additional concerns.

It should fit into an enclosure roughly the size of current DPs
It should be able to work without a fan or at least with minimal additional noise
It should be able to do at least the same things competing products do
It shouldn't break the bank.

The reason for that is that even in a small volume business sector that's largely populated by enthusiasts, instruments in the $4000 and above category are considered to be too expensive and somewhat aspirational (if I win the lotery...).

Kawai probably ships a great deal more $600 Clavinovas than MP10 in a business where even enthusiasts consider a Nord Stage 2 or Kronos X to be a luxury item.

The Kronos by the way uses a dual core Intel Atom 1.8 that isn't supplemented by any custom DSP hardware as its processor supplemented by 2 Gigs of Ram and 64 Gig of SSD storage which would cost you probably less than $300 retail yet it's still $3999.

The newly announced Prophet 12 uses 6 Analog Devices Sharc DSPs 'just' for the analog modelling of the synth (> $400 gross prices at 1000k) at the low price of $2999 and the forum buzz is along the lines of 'I would buy one if I could afford it'.

So cost and performance per dollar spent is an issue: Not from a technical standpoint but to make it a viable business case.

That doesn't mean that you're wrong though.

I just wonder if modeling is still as much in its infant stages as you claim or if they are simply limited by what they can do with their hardware.

If you look at computer graphics, rendering and CGI or video processing, tasks that are probably similarly power hungry then they are all severely limited by the available hardware or budget or my business sector where companies spend insane amounts of money just for a little more performance to do physics modelling with FEM a little better.

I'd be great to get some of the pianoteq foks to talk about their take in this issue.

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#2020930 - 01/25/13 06:08 AM Re: Why all pianos are sampled not modeled? [Re: EssBrace]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2475
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Modelling is the future but there are sonic flaws intrinsic to the technology at the moment, but they will be overcome I have no doubt.


Need to see modeling implemented so that a digital really sounds like the acoustic pianos that are being mentioned.

Roland's examples for "Steinway D" and "Bosendorfer" in the V-Piano are still well off the mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ewq6NgYpxA

Does anyone hear a "Bosendorfer" in any of the "Vintage II" presets?

As I currently own a V-Piano ... me thinks not.

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#2020941 - 01/25/13 06:32 AM Re: Why all pianos are sampled not modeled? [Re: pv88]
Macy Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 563
Originally Posted By: pv88
Originally Posted By: 36251
But you'd think someone would build a modeling monster just to show that it can be done.


Yes, a first prototype that truly is authentic in regards to the real sounds of a concert grand, with no reservations in cost so that R&D can perfect it. Someone would need to make a substantial donation so that the work could be undertaken.

Just one sound needs to be "perfected" with modeling (perhaps a Steinway D, or, Kawai EX) so that the other modeled parameters would complement the sounds. Also, a purely modeled instrument needs the best projection of its sounds with a revolutionary speaker system equal to the task.

Questions:

1) So, the question is, how much money would realistically be needed to complete the project?

2) Exactly what would this prototype look like... as for cabinet, speakers, key action, etc?


These type of projects are commonly done by university researchers. I've read a few papers on acoustic piano modeling written by university researchers, but I don't claim to really be knowledgeable on the subject. (I simply made the obvious observation that today's implementations don't take advantage of today's state-of-the-art computing power, off-the-shelf or custom. I don't know why that created such enthusiastic arguments when it is so obvious.) Anyway, universities and PHD students are a great place for this type of work to be done. Prototypes don't have to be in practical form factors - this type of research rarely ends up in commercial form at the university level, the point is modeling and algorithm development. Then private companies can take the results and commercialize it in practical, cost effective form factors.

I've been developing state-of-the-art products for about 40 years. In my current field of expertise (about the last 15 years or so) research (university and private) has always been far ahead of what could be commercially implemented - and still remains so today. We are compute bound and have always been, i.e. our most advanced algorithms can simply not be implemented in real time with the most advanced technologies available. However, we have continuously implemented ever increasing complexity algorithms over the last 15-20 years, implemented first with exotic custom hardware for cost-no-object defense markets, or cost-nearly-no-object professional markets, and then eventually implemented at more practical price points for broader markets.

What I haven't seen in piano modeling are similar research demonstrations that show that truly realistic piano models are known, or that subsequent algorithm requirements, if such models exist, are compute bound. i.e. before we can blame computer resources show that a solution exists, and then we can work on the computing issues. There are only a few commercial piano modeling implementations in existence and they are executed on what is very basic consumer computing platforms that don't require state-of-the-art processors, DSP's, or custom hardware development. That suggests that better (probably more complex) modeling solutions haven't been developed yet (else we would have demonstrations or products requiring state-of-the-art hardware) and the focus is still on developing modeling solutions, not beating computing limitations.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Ravenscroft 275, True Keys American D, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2020946 - 01/25/13 06:42 AM Re: Why all pianos are sampled not modeled? [Re: kapelli]
Phymau Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 2
Loc: Italy
Since design digital piano (sampled and modeled) from a long time, I have read with a lot of interest this Forum.
Many aspects of the topic have been discussed and some of them quite deeply. I would like to replay at many of them, but I prefer to give my answer, based on my personal experience, to the initial question.
First of all, not all the piano are sampled, since on the market there are the modeled V-piano and Pianoteq, while starting from the next month, also the our Physis Piano will be available.
So: Why all pianos are sampled not modeled?
My answer is because :
• The sampling technology is cheaper than physical modeling. For example for the Physis Piano we use six DSP, while, typically, only one is necessary for sampled pianos.
• The sampling is a mature and widely diffused technology that is quite easy to understand and to implement, while the Physical modeling is really complex to comprehend and calculate. Just to give an idea a I shortly tell my experience: I started to study the piano physical modeling 20 years ago. At that time the advancement on the research and the computational power was not enough to reach an acceptable result to design a good modeled piano, that was why I abandoned the project. In any case this first effort was not useless since those studies were useful for us to “discover” and apply the string resonance to a digital sampled piano. Seven year ago, in cooperation, with 3 universities and the extraordinary team of my company, we started again to design a modeled piano. It has been a real extraordinary effort, but this time I think we got a good result.
• So on the basis of my experience I think that, right now, almost all the digital pianos use sampling because it is too hard and expensive to make a modeled piano.
In order to answer to the original question in some post there was a discussion on what it’s better : a real acoustic piano, or digital sampled piano, or a digital modeled piano ?
The answer is: it depends.
All digital pianos (sampled or modeled) are an imitation of “the real acoustic piano”, therefore they approximate, in some way, the reality. If we strictly interpret this sentence we could say that the reality is always better of whatever reconstruction, but, if we detail the answer we could say that:
• We have not to consider the “real acoustic piano”, but complete panorama of the acoustic pianos, starting from the worse vertical Chinese to the best grand Steinway. In this case it is easy to find that many digitals are better than some acoustics under several points of view.
• Digitals pianos have well known additional features that acoustic don’t have : tuning not needed, headphone play, more sounds, sequencing and so on.
• Digitals pianos are cheaper than acoustics.
In synthesis there many reason to prefer a digital piano to an acoustic.
But if you prefer a digital piano what it is better: the sampled or the modeled ?
The answer is still : it depends.
• If you want cheaper piano: sampled.
• If you want adjust the piano sound at your taste or your played music: modeled.
• If you want a sound very close to the real piano: sampled, seem to be the right answer, since a recording is supposed to be always more accurate representation of the reality in comparison to a complex reconstruction, even if this is based on a very accurate modeling. This answer could be right (it depends also how you make the recording and reproduction) if you consider just a single note played at specific key velocity, but it is wrong if you consider many notes played at different velocity, i.e. if you play a piano. In fact in this case the interactions between notes, i.e. the sympathetic resonance (known also as string or damper resonance) become a very important phenomena that make the whole sound really true. In the modeled piano this effect is accurately reproduced, while on some the sampled piano it is not reproduced, or, in some others, is reproduced in a rough way. Moreover all the sampled pianos suffer of sample granularity, i.e. they use the same sample inside a note and velocity interval. These intervals, depending on the avilable memory, are wide in cheap pianos, while are small in a computer pianos, but always exit! In the modeled piano this problem do not exit at all, since is the modeled piano is practically continuous. There are other advantages on modeled piano that allow you to truly reproduce the note rebound or release. http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/images/icons/default/lightbulb.gif
_________________________
http://www.physispiano.com/

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#2020948 - 01/25/13 06:46 AM Re: Why all pianos are sampled not modeled? [Re: Nigeth]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3076
Originally Posted By: Nigeth
At that price I could simply go and buy a real baby grand instead..

Tough to gig with, though. ;-) Really, there are a whole lot of reasons people buy digital pianos, it's not always because they're cheaper than the real thing.

Originally Posted By: Nigeth
I just wonder if modeling is still as much in its infant stages as you claim or if they are simply limited by what they can do with their hardware.

I suspect the former. Especially since there is no available piano modeling software that requires even the best hardware that is commonly available today. Though who knows what prototype next gen V Piano Roland may have in the labs, waiting for the required hardware to get more affordable before they can make a product out of it.

Originally Posted By: Nigeth
If you look at computer graphics, rendering and CGI or video processing, tasks that are probably similarly power hungry then they are all severely limited by the available hardware or budget or my business sector where companies spend insane amounts of money just for a little more performance to do physics modelling with FEM a little better.

One difference between acoustic modeling for piano and CGI is that CGI can take as long as it needs to render a frame, and eventually, you get something useful out of whatever your code was capable of. The piano model is absolutely useless if it can't work in real time. So right from the start, whereas there was a reason to develop CGI that would do what you needed practically no matter how long it took (i.e. it would still give you a marketable product), there is no reason to develop a piano model that is too far beyond what current technology can do in real time.

PIxar started as a hardware company, and they almost went out of business. Creative content saved them. With the potential benefits of CGI clear, it was worth the ungodly amount of money that has been poured into CGI over the last 25 years or so (despite which, it's still not capable of creating everything in a way that is indistinguishable from the real thing). The amount of money to be made by modeling the sound of a piano is rather limited by comparison. For any company to invest tons of money into developing new technology, there has to be a sense of how they think they will be able to make their money back.

(edit: though Macy makes good points about university research as well.)


Edited by anotherscott (01/25/13 06:54 AM)

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#2020949 - 01/25/13 06:55 AM Re: Why all pianos are sampled not modeled? [Re: kapelli]
Nigeth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 104
My expertise is mostly audio processing and numerical simulation of physical processes.

A business that is similarly compute bound, companies in my sector spend millions and employ entire R&D departments devoted to improving the existing finite element method simulations.

Quote:
There are only a few commercial piano modeling implementations in existence and they are executed on what is very basic consumer computing platforms that don't require state-of-the-art processors, DSP's, or custom hardware development. That suggests that better (probably more complex) modeling solutions haven't been developed yet


It might also suggest that better or probably more complex models are not feasible on the type of HW that is budgeted for a DP or that a consumer can afford.

I approached the topic from the same frame of reference as the one I quoted from you.

I've looked into a few papers, and theses on the subject and according to the (granted limited research) a numerical simulation of a real piano should be computationally hard. The number of differentiations required (especially when you treat the Model Hammer/Strings/Soundboard as multidimensional) is quite substantial even for a single string and the computationally more efficient approach loses a lot of the detail the numerical solution could theoretically produce.

At least if you model all of the interactions and the physical properties of the strings.

So either they use an entirely different approach to modeling the physical properties of the piano then I'd be interested in the trade offs involved or they use a less complex model.

We seem to agree though that there is a lot of room for improvement in the quality of the modeling and we both seem to wonder why the progress seems to be only limited.

We just seem to come to different conclusions or theories at to why.

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#2020951 - 01/25/13 07:06 AM Re: Why all pianos are sampled not modeled? [Re: Phymau]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3076
Interesting and thorough post, Phymau!

Originally Posted By: Phymau
But if you prefer a digital piano what it is better: the sampled or the modeled ?
The answer is still : it depends.
...
• If you want adjust the piano sound at your taste or your played music: modeled.
• If you want a sound very close to the real piano: sampled, seem to be the right answer, since a recording is supposed to be always more accurate representation of the reality in comparison to a complex reconstruction

Getting back to the CGI analogy, film of reality still looks more real than CGI constructions, but CGI lets you do things you can't do with real people. Similar.

Originally Posted By: Phymau
This answer could be right...if you consider just a single note played at specific key velocity, but it is wrong if you consider many notes played at different velocity, i.e. if you play a piano. In fact in this case the interactions between notes, i.e. the sympathetic resonance [etc.]

Yes, this is what I was saying earlier, modeling's acoustic advantage isn't in the reproduction of the notes, but rather in the simulation of all the resonances. It's nice to hear that again from the perspective of someone who is in the industry.

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#2020983 - 01/25/13 08:41 AM Re: Why all pianos are sampled not modeled? [Re: kapelli]
Nigeth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 104
Going back to a previous question: Is there a potential for a hybrid solution?

If I may borrow the bullet points of Phymau for a moment:

1. If you want cheaper piano: sampled.
2. If you want adjust the piano sound at your taste or your played music: modeled.
3. If you want a sound very close to the real piano: sampled,

Could you supplement high quality samples with modeling to move 1 and 3 closer to 2? Maybe by using a different kind of sampling technique?

Since pure modeling seems to be complex and right now not doesn't aproach the quality of 3. as far as reproduction is concerned but is clearly better for people who want more of 2. a hybrid approach might be advantageuous if it is technically feasible.

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#2021007 - 01/25/13 09:26 AM Re: Why all pianos are sampled not modeled? [Re: Nigeth]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3076
Originally Posted By: Nigeth
Going back to a previous question: Is there a potential for a hybrid solution?

The Roland SuperNaturals in the non-V models are hybrids. (As is Yamaha's SCM, though Dewster says it doesn't seem to make much difference there... I haven't heard those, myself.)

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#2021084 - 01/25/13 11:54 AM Re: Why all pianos are sampled not modeled? [Re: Nigeth]
Phymau Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 2
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: Nigeth
Going back to a previous question: Is there a potential for a hybrid solution?

If I may borrow the bullet points of Phymau for a moment:

1. If you want cheaper piano: sampled.
2. If you want adjust the piano sound at your taste or your played music: modeled.
3. If you want a sound very close to the real piano: sampled,


Maybe my point 3 was not clear. Here I meant that a modeled piano is better than a sampled one.

Originally Posted By: Nigeth
Could you supplement high quality samples with modeling to move 1 and 3 closer to 2? Maybe by using a different kind of sampling technique?

Since pure modeling seems to be complex and right now not doesn't aproach the quality of 3. as far as reproduction is concerned but is clearly better for people who want more of 2. a hybrid approach might be advantageuous if it is technically feasible.


The kind of the modification you can do on sample are really limited in comparison to one you can do in a model.
Making a parallel with Graphic world, there is the difference of editing flexibility that you can have when you edit a bit map image or vector based image.
So don’t believe that hybrid approach is feasible, moreover would not be advantageous for us considering that our piano model is quite accurate and very close to the correspondent real sound, having also all the advantages of the model that have been described in my previous post.
_________________________
http://www.physispiano.com/

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#2021297 - 01/25/13 06:03 PM Re: Why all pianos are sampled not modeled? [Re: Phymau]
Macy Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 563
Originally Posted By: Phymau

The kind of the modification you can do on sample are really limited in comparison to one you can do in a model.

For now, that is primarily only an advantage to the piano designer, not the user.

The modifications that I as a user can do to the timbre of the Vintage D are similar and sufficient to what can be done (much more slowly) when voicing an acoustic piano. I find them quite realistic in that respect. But I can't make the Steinway samples sound like a Yamaha acoustic, and that is just fine because I can use a different sample set to produce the Yamaha acoustic piano sound.

The modifications available with a modeled piano go far beyond what could be achieved by voicing an acoustic piano. They essentially allow one to design a different piano. The problem is that in current modeled pianos there are no set of parameters that result in the piano sounding sufficiently like a Steinway or Yamaha or any other particular piano that one wishes to emulate (IMO). So from this users point of view the additional flexibility simply results in more pianos that I don't like, rather than more voicing's of a single sampled piano that I do like.

I love the idea of piano modeling. It technically and aesthetically appeals to me as an engineer and product designer much more than the laborious task of recording thousands of samples of an actual piano and making them "play" together properly (the more interesting part of the design problem - and an area in which modeling has theoretical advantages). And if the objective were to produce new kinds of musical keyboard instruments with great versatility, then I would say modeling has already succeeded. But if the objective is to emulate acoustic pianos (and more difficult, specific brands of acoustic pianos) I believe there is still much work to be done on modeling.

The question for me remains this. Do sophisticated enough models exist today, independent of computing limitations, to fool a listener into believing they are listening to a recording of an actual Steinway (or Yamaha, or acoustic piano X)? Is modeling sophisticated enough now to accomplish this task? I haven't heard anyone demonstrate that it is.

I would suggest the following practical challenge. Although actual product implementations have to be executed in real-time, that is not necessary to prove that sufficiently sophisticated models exist. So let the piano model designers program their best model into the computing hardware of their choice (the most powerful desktop computer or custom DSP system) and feed it a 1 minute MIDI piano recording. Let the computer crank away for 7 days (10,080 minutes) to render a 1 minute audio recording. i.e. that effectively provides the model with a 10,000 times more powerful computing platform than currently available. Now test that 7-day rendered audio recording against a Vintage D or Ivory II realtime rendered recording. If listeners still have no trouble picking the sampled recording as much more realistic, than the limitations of the modeling approach are with the models themselves, and are not going to be solved by more powerful computing platforms for many years. (Incidentally, this is essentially how we verify sophisticated video processing algorithms that can't be executed in real-time yet.)

So let the challenge begin ...
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Ravenscroft 275, True Keys American D, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2021326 - 01/25/13 07:00 PM Re: Why all pianos are sampled not modeled? [Re: kapelli]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2100
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Good challenge.

Btw, a very interesting (software) sampled piano was released some time ago - they said that the samples were actually the result of some kind of modelling - i.e - they were pre-computed samples. The demo recordings were absolutely dreadful though! (at least, in terms of authenticity - maybe they weren't trying to be authentic - I don't know) I can't remember the name of this product.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (01/25/13 10:11 PM)

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