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#2021196 - 01/25/13 03:52 PM Chopin's Op. 53...
JordanS. Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/18/12
Posts: 16
Anyone have any tips for the ornaments in measure 23 and later on in the piece???
I'm trying to come up with a way to play it with less hyper-extention...

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#2021209 - 01/25/13 04:09 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: JordanS.]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
I think you need to recount the measures. There aren't any ornaments in m. 23.

I could guess which ones you mean, but I'm not sure I'd be right, and better if we don't have to guess. smile

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#2021218 - 01/25/13 04:18 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: JordanS.]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2392
Loc: San Jose, CA
I'm going to hazard a guess that it's the octaves with the trills. To which the answer is, don't stretch. Play the lower note then hop to a position where the trill is comfortable. It's so much easier than trying to hurry and killing your hands.

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#2021221 - 01/25/13 04:27 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: jeffreyjones]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
I'm going to hazard a guess that it's the octaves with the trills....

That's what I thought too, but I'd rather he let us know for sure, since there are other ornaments around there that have issues too.

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#2021222 - 01/25/13 04:27 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: JordanS.]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
If in fact you do mean the octaves with the trills at the top, there is a really neat trick that Stanisalv Bunin does. Instead of playing the octave after each trill with the right hand only (which is where the difficulty comes from), ADD the bottom half of the octave to the left hand's chords. That way you free the right up while the left hand feels virtually the same.

Take a look.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUCFQlXeTuc#t=0m48s


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#2021224 - 01/25/13 04:30 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Joel_W
If in fact you do mean the octaves with the trills at the top, there is a really neat trick that Stanisalv Bunin does. Instead of playing the octave after each trill with the right hand only, ADD the bottom half of the octave to the left hand's chords....

Cheater, cheater!! grin




(.......he says, as he runs to try it.....) ha

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#2021225 - 01/25/13 04:32 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: JordanS.]
JordanS. Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/18/12
Posts: 16
Yeah... I guess i counted too fast! smirk It's the octave trills! Thanks for the replies so far!

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#2021226 - 01/25/13 04:33 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Been trying to figure this out for the last 170 years, and you just solved it for me. But please don't tell anybody I'm doing it. Keep it real hush-hush. grin

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#2021229 - 01/25/13 04:35 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Mark_C]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6470
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Joel_W
If in fact you do mean the octaves with the trills at the top, there is a really neat trick that Stanisalv Bunin does. Instead of playing the octave after each trill with the right hand only, ADD the bottom half of the octave to the left hand's chords....

Cheater, cheater!! grin




(.......he says, as he runs to try it.....) ha


and the verdict is.......
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2021230 - 01/25/13 04:35 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Been trying to figure this out for the last 170 years, and you just solved it for me. But please don't tell anybody I'm doing it. Keep it real hush-hush. grin


thumb


It's probably the best cheat I've ever encountered. I wonder who taught Stan that trick. (maybe he figured it out on his own...)

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#2021246 - 01/25/13 04:54 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Joel_W
I wonder who taught Stan that trick....

Probably Chopin himself! grin

(Y'know, 'channeling' and stuff....)

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#2021248 - 01/25/13 04:55 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: JordanS.]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6160
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Yes, I had found that "trick" a long time ago too. (I mean as done by Bunin, not my idea).
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#2021252 - 01/25/13 05:00 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: JordanS.]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3836
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Two active threads now on "cheating" in the op 53. Must be the hardest piece ever... smile

-J
_________________________
Schubert Immersion: Bb Impromptu; C# minor and Ab Moments Musicaux; accompanying four songs (Suleika II, Rastlose Liebe, Du Liebst Mich Nicht, Im Fruhling); listening intensely to Die Schöne Müllerin and Winterreise

Chopin: first Ballade; Mozart: D minor concerto;

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#2021256 - 01/25/13 05:03 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: beet31425]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Two active threads now on "cheating" in the op 53. Must be the hardest piece ever... smile

Except the other cheat made it harder!

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#2021259 - 01/25/13 05:06 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: beet31425]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
....and when we get done with these 'cheats,' maybe we can talk about what we think of "helping out" with the right hand on those 'solo' LH octaves in the middle part.... grin

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#2021260 - 01/25/13 05:10 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: JordanS.]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5547
...so obvious, why didn't I think of it before??
Methinks I'm going to cheat from now on and spare myself tenosynovitis playing that dratted piece the way it is written grin
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2021261 - 01/25/13 05:11 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Mark_C]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5547
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
....and when we get done with these 'cheats,' maybe we can talk about what we think of "helping out" with the right hand on those 'solo' LH octaves in the middle part.... grin


Doesn't everybody use two hands when the RH is free?
Don't tell me that's cheating......
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2021272 - 01/25/13 05:23 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: JordanS.]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6160
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Maybe we need a thread entitled Best Professional Cheats with embedded YouTube videos... ha
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#2021281 - 01/25/13 05:39 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: bennevis]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
....and when we get done with these 'cheats,' maybe we can talk about what we think of "helping out" with the right hand on those 'solo' LH octaves in the middle part.... grin

Doesn't everybody use two hands when the RH is free?
Don't tell me that's cheating......

Hey, but it's "written" for just the L.H.! grin


(Good rule of thumb [as well as all the other fingers]: What is "written" isn't necessarily what's written. smile
And of course vice versa!)

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#2021303 - 01/25/13 06:13 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: bennevis]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6470
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: bennevis
...so obvious, why didn't I think of it before??
Methinks I'm going to cheat from now on and spare myself tenosynovitis playing that dratted piece the way it is written grin


Well - I just tried it - and yes, it is easier - and the trill is cleaner - although burying the lower octave note in the LH chord doesn't quite sound the same as when it's played by the RH thumb. But I don't know whether after playing the doggone piece for over 40 years now that I can make the change. grin
_________________________
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#2021308 - 01/25/13 06:21 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: carey]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: carey
....although burying the lower octave note in the LH chord doesn't quite sound the same as when it's played by the RH thumb....

Part of the challenge of doing such a "swindle" (Seymour Bernstein's word, a bit preferable to "cheat") ha ....is to make it sound the same!
You can do it. smile

Quote:
....But I don't know whether after playing the doggone piece for over 40 years now that I can make the change. grin

I don't know either. grin
(I said you can do it, I didn't say I could.) ha

I just worked on it for a few minutes, which was long enough to see that this is a much better way for me to play it than any of the ways I had tried over the years -- and also long enough to see that it would take a lot of work (and a fair amount of passed time) to "make the change."

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#2021372 - 01/25/13 09:02 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: JordanS.]
fj_s Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 171
Loc: Singapore
For some reason I did not much trouble, but I use 1-4-5-4 then 1-3-5-3.
_________________________
In progress

Mozart: Sonata in D Major, k576
Chopin: Polonaise in A-flat major, Op 53
Berg: Sonata in B minor, Op 1
Bach: Partita in C Minor, BWV 826

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#2021395 - 01/25/13 10:26 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Mark_C]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6248
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
....and when we get done with these 'cheats,' maybe we can talk about what we think of "helping out" with the right hand on those 'solo' LH octaves in the middle part.... grin

Doesn't everybody use two hands when the RH is free?
Don't tell me that's cheating......

Hey, but it's "written" for just the L.H.! grin
what's written. smile
And of course vice versa!)


You must have fits with the first page.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2021440 - 01/26/13 12:57 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Hey, but it's "written" for just the L.H.! grin
what's written. smile
And of course vice versa!)

You must have fits with the first page.

And you must have fits trying to quote a post! grin


But seriously folks.... ha do you mean you re-divide some stuff on there?
I might learn something else! smile
(Although, I suspect I wouldn't want to do it there. I like keeping those voices straight.)

edit: I think I only just got this. ha
(see later post)


Edited by Mark_C (01/26/13 01:24 AM)

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#2021444 - 01/26/13 01:04 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Damon]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2392
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
....and when we get done with these 'cheats,' maybe we can talk about what we think of "helping out" with the right hand on those 'solo' LH octaves in the middle part.... grin

Doesn't everybody use two hands when the RH is free?
Don't tell me that's cheating......

Hey, but it's "written" for just the L.H.! grin
what's written. smile
And of course vice versa!)


You must have fits with the first page.


I've always had fits with the first page. What a pain!

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#2021446 - 01/26/13 01:07 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: jeffreyjones]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
I've always had fits with the first page. What a pain!

Yes.
It's one of those pieces, like Beethoven Op. 2 #3, where you can tell in the first 3 seconds if someone is up to the piece.

And BTW of course for you in the Beethoven, the answer came up roses. thumb

I don't think the opening of the Chopin is any harder, even though the 'stuff' goes on longer.

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#2021451 - 01/26/13 01:21 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Mark_C]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2392
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
I've always had fits with the first page. What a pain!

Yes.
It's one of those pieces, like Beethoven Op. 2 #3, where you can tell in the first 3 seconds if someone is up to the piece.

And BTW of course for you in the Beethoven, the answer came up roses. thumb

I don't think the opening of the Chopin is any harder, even though the 'stuff' goes on longer.


I don't think the Beethoven is hard at all. Play on your nails and it takes away 99% of the difficulty. The opening of the Chopin is much harder for me.

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#2021452 - 01/26/13 01:22 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: JordanS.]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5377
Loc: Philadelphia
If you've ever played La Campanella, you would have this alternate fingering: 1343. There is an entire passage of this exact trill marked 1343 in Liszt's etude.

If you're going to split the hands (meaning the LH will pick up the tab on the bottom notes of the octaves after the trill), you can jump 1232 12.


I typically play 1454, but sometimes I play a combination. When I play the combination, this is what I do: for the first, I play 1343. I pick up the F in the LH (thumb), but play the G octave with the RH. This sets up the Ab better than picking up the G in the LH (IMO).

Hope it helps. smile
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2021453 - 01/26/13 01:25 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Damon: I think maybe you were doing a joke that nobody got yet, including me.

Did you mean about it "looking" like all the notes should be played by the LH? ha

(That would be a pretty good trick!)

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#2021472 - 01/26/13 02:34 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Mark_C]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6470
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Damon: I think maybe you were doing a joke that nobody got yet, including me.

Did you mean about it "looking" like all the notes should be played by the LH? ha

(That would be a pretty good trick!)


Hmmm - now that's something I haven't tried yet..... crazy

Of course, finding a fingering that works (using both hands) on the first page is a challenge. I keep changing mine from time to time with mixed results.
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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