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#2021270 - 01/25/13 05:22 PM NAMM Show & Pianos
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 632
Loc: San Mateo, CA
I just came back from the show and I’m a bit disappointed that the piano exhibitors are shrinking every year. This is not a good sign for the piano industry. Probably for some manufactures is not worth it; as the cost of the show is too high and the return is small. I think this is a good time for executives at NAMM to start reconsidering if they are contributing to the success of members from the piano industry.

Among the pianos I played at the showed, I enjoyed the Mason & Hamlin grand pianos and uprights, the new GX series Kawai grand pianos and the Shigeru Kawai. From the German manufacturers the Sauter grand was spectacular and I was disappointed with all Grotian pianos in the show.

I had a chance to play the New Kaysenburg upright and I have to admit that I like the touch, the tone and the looks of the piano. I was a bit disappointed with Hailun (Please don’t take it personal is just an opinion) maybe I expected more that I should, I think the Weber’s by Young Chang were better.
I played a Ravenscroft, beautiful piano but any piano that cost $270,000 should be nice.

In reality not much to see or try. I’m looking forward to read other people opinions.


Edited by Kurtmen (01/28/13 07:04 PM)
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#2021285 - 01/25/13 05:43 PM Re: NAMM Show & Pianos [Re: Kurtmen]
Gatsbee13 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 497
Loc: So Cal
Played most of the pianos there.. First time getting to play on a WNG action at mason and hamlin. It's different... I agree, very limited as far as pianos.. No bechstein or steingraeber?

Loved the silent piano on the yamahas. And I got to play the CFX in the premium piano room ( where there were no other players at the time) so I could actually hear the piano.

This was my first NAMM. I liked it,but nothing amazing..I took pictures which I may upload later.

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#2021291 - 01/25/13 05:56 PM Re: NAMM Show & Pianos [Re: Kurtmen]
Steven Y. A. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/13
Posts: 291
Loc: Toronto
More input on the Kayserburg uprights?
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#2021300 - 01/25/13 06:05 PM Re: NAMM Show & Pianos [Re: Steven Y. A.]
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 632
Loc: San Mateo, CA
Quote:
More input on the Kayserburg uprights?

I played one upright 52".
The action was well balance, the tone was refined with nice sustain,the cabinetry was very attractive.


Edited by Kurtmen (01/25/13 06:14 PM)
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Purveyors of:
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#2021306 - 01/25/13 06:19 PM Re: NAMM Show & Pianos [Re: Kurtmen]
Piano World Offline



Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 5571
Loc: Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
This was the first NAMM I've missed in years.

Please keep the reports (and pictures if possible) coming!

We are in the middle of this, or we would have been there:

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#2021311 - 01/25/13 06:24 PM Re: NAMM Show & Pianos [Re: Kurtmen]
Gatsbee13 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 497
Loc: So Cal
Is rkassman the only dealer of kayserburg in Cali? I'm in so cal so it's quite a trip to Berkeley.

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#2021316 - 01/25/13 06:38 PM Re: NAMM Show & Pianos [Re: Gatsbee13]
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 632
Loc: San Mateo, CA
I guess.
_________________________
San Mateo Piano
Purveyors of:
Kawai, Wilh. Steinberg.
Kawai Digital Piano, Pianodisc.
<a href="http://sanmateopiano.com" style="color:#FF0505;font-size:10px;font-family:Times New Roman;text-decoration:underline;" target="_blank" >http://sanmateopiano.com</a>

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#2021334 - 01/25/13 07:21 PM Re: NAMM Show & Pianos [Re: Piano World]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1101
Loc: Tennessee
So, does the postman pick up anything you put by the mailbox???

Regards,

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#2021340 - 01/25/13 07:48 PM Re: NAMM Show & Pianos [Re: Kurtmen]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1523
Loc: Danville, California
I really don't get this whole Ravenscroft thing.

I think they have sold maybe 3 pianos in their entire history.

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#2021389 - 01/25/13 10:03 PM Re: NAMM Show & Pianos [Re: Furtwangler]
Gatsbee13 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 497
Loc: So Cal
Originally Posted By: Furtwangler
I really don't get this whole Ravenscroft thing.

I think they have sold maybe 3 pianos in their entire history.



me neither.. it just seems like a piano with a bunch of extra stuff that is unnecessary. I heard one of the guys at NAMM talking about it and he said the Ravenscroft weighs 3 times as much as a Steinway (as if that somehow made it better).. I kind of chuckled at that..

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#2021392 - 01/25/13 10:19 PM Re: NAMM Show & Pianos [Re: Kurtmen]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14119
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Anybody on the new 6'10 Estonia 210 grand?

Norbert
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Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
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#2021410 - 01/25/13 11:32 PM Re: NAMM Show & Pianos [Re: Gatsbee13]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7145
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Gatsbee13
Originally Posted By: Furtwangler
I really don't get this whole Ravenscroft thing.

I think they have sold maybe 3 pianos in their entire history.



me neither.. it just seems like a piano with a bunch of extra stuff that is unnecessary. I heard one of the guys at NAMM talking about it and he said the Ravenscroft weighs 3 times as much as a Steinway (as if that somehow made it better).. I kind of chuckled at that..


The maker of the Ravencroft, Michael Spreeman, is a member here. Undoubtedly, both you and Furtwangler know more about piano design than he does, but of possible interest to those who might be more focused on reality than on chuckling and snickering, a little over a year ago Mr. Spreeman responded to some questions I put to him here about his philosophy of piano design and how he first got involved in the Ravenscroft project.

Here are Mr. Spreeman's thoughts.

The Ravenscroft name is because of Bob Ravenscroft, but not in the sense you are assuming. I began working with Mr. Ravenscroft when I was head piano technician at ASU back in the ‘80’s. He is a “free jazz” player and was attempting to do things that his piano couldn’t (whispery soft passages, fast repetition, very broad dynamics, etc. Yes yes, I know, these are things any good piano should be able to do, right? Well, hold that thought and then multiply by 2 or 3). I finally went to him and said that he had a choice: either purchase a new piano, or “what if”? I offered to find a 9’ rim and plate and rebuild the piano to cater to his needs. This is what we did, and somehow the piano actually turned out alright. I've chosen to name my pianos in honor of that first commission (and I think Ravenscroft looks better on the fallboard than Spreeman ).

Ultimately, we're building the pianos for pianists and we continually seek and invite feedback about the sound and feel. One thing I’m finding is that there are certain qualities that pianists look for regardless of the style they play. Take sustain for example. Who doesn’t want long duration with bloom and sustain? Who doesn’t want power or richness or a lush mellow pppp? There is a very interesting study about the sound of musical instruments. Several very different instruments are recorded and then the attack is removed in mastering and sustain is looped so all one hears is the long sustain. Then the recordings play between a violin and a trombone, a flute and piano, and several other unique sounding instruments. Without the attack, identifying the instrument is nearly impossible. (This study was given to me by a friend in Utah who was a band teacher working on his Master’s. I no longer have the recordings and don’t know where he obtained them.) So, much of what identifies a piano is the attack and much of what differentiates one manufacturer’s sound from another has to do with the attack. This is not to say that the duration and sustain cannot be manipulated. It’s merely to point out that one of the greatest effects a technician can have on the sound of your piano is in the attack.

Much of the feedback we receive has to do with comparing our sound with that of other pianos the artists have played. I hesitate to share the specific comparisons because I don’t really like to compare our sound in relation to others. I didn’t decide to build pianos in order to compete with other manufacturers and win the “best piano in the world” competition because there is no “best piano in the world”. It’s way too subjective for any one piano to be the best. The “best for you” ….maybe. And maybe you’ll have a few people agree with you. But there will never be one sound that’s best for everyone.

Thankfully!

So, in terms of how I would “interpret” the artist’s comparisons: I’m hearing that the sound is a hybrid. It has a Euro sort of purity but without the thinness often associated with a Euro sound. Then there is an American sort of power and a distinct coloring with the higher partials. Most artists, classical and jazz, want a sound where the tonality changes as the note is played from pppp to FFFF. Jazz artists especially like the low tenor and high bass to be clear and distinct; to be able to play 3rd’s and 10’s in this area without them “getting lost” or sounding “muddy”.

Classical artists typically comment on the evenness of volume and tonality from note one to 88. In fact, many “endorsed” artists (with “other” companies, not ours) are taken back or surprised by this. However, almost all of them say they really like it after they play for awhile. Many concert pianos (and I’m guilty of doing this in the past) are voiced in such a way that the low bass and high treble are louder and brighter than the middle. A sort of “curve” voicing, if you will. Many great concerto pianos are voiced with bass way to loud and crashy for the piano to be used in solo work, for example,
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#2021419 - 01/25/13 11:49 PM Re: NAMM Show & Pianos [Re: Gatsbee13]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19228
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Gatsbee13
I heard one of the guys at NAMM talking about it and he said the Ravenscroft weighs 3 times as much as a Steinway (as if that somehow made it better).. I kind of chuckled at that..
Of course that statement was false.

If one reads the Ravenscroft website, I think it becomes clear that this piano has a lot of thought znd knowledge behind it. Of course, one can always argue that the price is extreme but these pianos are built mostly on special order for those who can afford them. If the pianos weren't special I doubt anyone would be buying them at their very high price. The only thing I personally found a bit strange was that their ebony pianos sometimes have the wood toned sharps which I think don't work well aesthetically with that color piano.


Edited by pianoloverus (01/26/13 12:09 AM)

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#2021468 - 01/26/13 02:20 AM Re: NAMM Show & Pianos [Re: Kurtmen]
terminaldegree Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 2629
Loc: western Wisconsin
Currently recovering from day one of my first NAMM- boy are my feet sore!

So far, I've only played about half of what I intend to see; some other instruments, I need to go back and play again. So much of the day was spent putting faces to names I only knew on the Internet.

The Sauter Omega was fabulous. I was going to steal it, but they confiscated it from my bag on the way out of the building. The Kayserburg 52" had an unexpectedly lovely, long sustain in the treble. The Hailun H5 just outside their exhibit room was also a standout. Got to try the new Estonia 210, but there were some people doing some loud playing at the time next door at Fazioli, so it wouldn't be fair to comment. Indrek was a great host. The new GX7 Kawai played and sounded great, and finally got to play an SK-EX too. The Bosendorfer/Yamaha CF room was really beautifully staged, with an art case Bosie in there. A crazy Yamaha C3 with soundboard transducer-driven digital sounds. A new, but "throwback" 58" tall Bluthner upright, as well as one of the wilder art case instruments I've ever seen (rimless!)

I have lots of pictures and many more pianos to play and people to visit. I can't imagine how hard it must have been to see everything in the piano world back in the "old" days when so many more companies exhibited...in 4 days. For those enthusiasts unable to attend (or angry because the show isn't open to the public), the one bit of consolation I can offer is most exhibits at NAMM are actually a lousy place to audition a piano critically-- the background noise level tends to drown out any playing below mezzo forte. Sometimes you can't even hear yourself think...

The industry folks I met today were passionate about what they're doing, and by and large treated this "small fish" they do not know with warmth and respect. Finally, it was hilarious to notice the extreme disparity in the ages, dress, and percentage of skin covered in tattoos between the keyboard-dominated 3rd floor and the guitar and electronics-driven 1st and 2nd floors!!
_________________________
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#2021581 - 01/26/13 10:47 AM Re: NAMM Show & Pianos [Re: Kurtmen]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10452
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
From what I understand, the new Kawai GX Series will replace all RX Series pianos with shipments beginning to arrive this spring. The improvements explained to me were an increase in key length of anout a 1/2 inch and some other action geometry changes allowing for a better control, (not that the RX was shabby!). The scale was tweaked, but only so far as the changing of the gauge of a few strings. And, the GX-2 and GX-3 have grown an inch. The plate was changed slightly to allow the pinblock to be morticed into the plate. This should increase tuning stability.

Word is that there is only a limited supply of RX's still available from Kawai. Some models may run out before the GX's are available.

The GX Series will cost about 5% more than the RX Series.

I had dinner last night with Larry Fine, Del and Barb Fandrich, Owen Lovell (terminaldegree), who is now officially Piano Buyer's Reveiw Editor, and his lovely companion Rachel. We all had a great time.

more later....
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Since 1937.

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My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2021835 - 01/26/13 07:32 PM Re: NAMM Show & Pianos [Re: terminaldegree]
master88er Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 844
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: terminaldegree

The Sauter Omega was fabulous. I was going to steal it, but they confiscated it from my bag on the way out of the building. The Kayserburg 52" had an unexpectedly lovely, long sustain in the treble.


First of all, keep your hands off my Sauter!!!! smile That is, of course, unless you wish to give me your Mastercard number! grin

The Kayserburgs have been very well received, and already of 5 of the sought after 8 national dealers committed. Read the Kayserburg thread for a blind test against 3 other pianos. whistle
_________________________
Russell I. Kassman
R.KASSMAN, Purveyor of Fine Pianos
Berkeley, CA

FORMER US Rep.for C.Bechstein

SF Area Dealer: SteingraeberGrotrianSauterEstoniaKayserburgBaldwinBrodmannRitmller
www.rkassman.com
russell@rkassman.com
510.558.0765

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#2021867 - 01/26/13 08:46 PM Re: NAMM Show & Pianos [Re: Kurtmen]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5183
Loc: Olympia, Washington
I came down last Monday evening so I could give a brief technical presentation to a group of Young Chang/Weber dealers as part of a "pre-NAMM" event. On Tuesday I walked them through the most significant design changes that are now showing up in the new product line. Since the new designs represent something of a new departure for the company it is important to have the key sales people fully aware of just how the new pianos work. Several of the old “sales features” are no longer part of the package and some of the things that are now part of the design border on sacrilegious.

This year, for the first time, all of the pianos shown at NAMM were of the new design. Not all models were available to be shown, of course, as I just signed off on the last two in December so those are just now entering production—not in time to make the show.

I don't follow production schedules all that closely so I don't know exactly when those final two pianos -- the 175 grand and the 131 vertical -- will begin arriving in the U.S. but everything else should be in stock Real Soon Now (although it may take a while for them to show up in the dealer’s showrooms). The arrival of the last two models will mark the end of one era for YC/Weber and the beginning of another. Since this project began every piano in the product line has been extensively redesigned and now incorporates a completely new design philosophy.

It has been an interesting road so far and now that the pianos are beginning to find their way out to the dealerships they will meet their first real test: how they will perform on the sales floor. So far the indications are good; sales are up dramatically over last year. In part some of this can probably be attributed to a moderately improving economy but the feedback I’m getting from the dealers a lot of their success is coming from the fact that the pianos just perform very nicely.

There is still a lot of work to be done with the final details of integrating the new designs more smoothly into production and the ever-present problems of maintaining and/or improving quality control but the designs themselves are now out there for better or worse. I feel like a parent watching their offspring venture out into the world for the first time; I've done what I can do and now their success depends on the work of others and that is pretty much beyond my control.

So far they seem to be doing rather well -- the sales people were all walking around with big smiles -- I'll know more by the end of the show.

Because I was so closely tied to the YC/Weber exhibit this year I had very little time to see what, if anything, else might be new with others. As always, it’s been nice meeting with old friends and acquaintances making some new ones but had little time to examine any product.

Well, with one exception, but I'll have to get back to that later. For now I need to pack and get to the airport. Barb and I are heading for home in a couple of hours.

ddf
_________________________
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Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
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Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#2021871 - 01/26/13 08:52 PM Re: NAMM Show & Pianos [Re: Kurtmen]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14119
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
sales are up dramatically over last year


Great news - heard this from everybody!!

Even the Canadian hinterlands are roaring right now....

Norbert wink
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#2021982 - 01/27/13 04:49 AM Re: NAMM Show & Pianos [Re: Steve Cohen]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
From what I understand, the new Kawai GX Series will replace all RX Series pianos with shipments beginning to arrive this spring. The improvements explained to me were an increase in key length of anout a 1/2 inch and some other action geometry changes allowing for a better control, (not that the RX was shabby!). The scale was tweaked, but only so far as the changing of the gauge of a few strings. And, the GX-2 and GX-3 have grown an inch. The plate was changed slightly to allow the pinblock to be morticed into the plate. This should increase tuning stability.

Word is that there is only a limited supply of RX's still available from Kawai. Some models may run out before the GX's are available.

The GX Series will cost about 5% more than the RX Series.



I can't imagine how Kawai could possibly improve the tuning stability of my RX-2. It is already more than excellent.

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#2022831 - 01/28/13 01:04 PM Re: NAMM Show & Pianos [Re: Kurtmen]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14119
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
I have lots of pictures and many more pianos to play and people to visit.


Any chance to hear/see more?

Norbert wink
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#2022967 - 01/28/13 04:55 PM Re: NAMM Show & Pianos [Re: Norbert]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1728
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Spent some time on the CX9 over at Yamaha...really a beautiful piano.

Something was wrong with the prep on the Mason 9' upstairs...not a good sounding piano at all.
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