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#2021385 - 01/25/13 09:44 PM Touch Curve Theory Unleashed
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1685
Loc: Pennsylvania
With the advent of the new Kawai VPC there has been much discussion about the concept of the touch curve for a dp.

Since I use software piano sounds I have utilized these touch curve adjusters for some time now and something always puzzles me about them.

I will use Pianoteq for my example because that product has the most vivid example of this puzzle.

In Pianoteq the touch curve is associated with each of the presets within the product. That seems odd to me because I would think that the touchcurve would be associated with the instrument you are playing ... not the particular sound you are generating. It would seem natural to me to assign a touchcurve ONE TIME in the header of the product somewhere and never change it unless you changed the instrument.

But, that is not what I see. I see a different touchcurve for every preset and many are significantly different than others. It appears that the touch curve is simply another parameter within the preset that affects the sound and not something defining the touch sensitivity of the digital piano sending the midi signals.

What say you ?
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#2021407 - 01/25/13 11:14 PM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: dmd]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 458
How does this compare to sampled pianos software?

Modeled piano is synthetic so you are not really changing instruments. I can understand the touch curve being customized to suit a preset. It is all just code.

Sampled piano would be more consistent as it is derived from actual properties of a physical piano, I am thinking.

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#2021408 - 01/25/13 11:31 PM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: o0Ampy0o]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1685
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: o0Ampy0o
How does this compare to sampled pianos software?


It works exactly the same.

The touchcurve must be defined for each preset.

Quote:
I can understand the touch curve being customized to suit a preset. It is all just code.


Well, then why does the Kawai VPC VST controller contain a unique touchcurve for each of 4 different software packages ? What good is a touchcurve within the instrument if you are able to apply separate touchcurves within each preset of the sound software ?

It makes no sense to me.
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#2021422 - 01/26/13 12:03 AM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: dmd]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 562
The designers of each software piano may have used a different keyboard controller as their reference, so each package may be optimized for a different controller response and each piano within a bundle could even be optimized for a different controller response. Then there is the subjective issue. Maybe you prefer a different touch (regulation) for different pianos. In reality, I use the same velocity curve for both the American D and the Vintage D (I actually leave the piano software velocity at the default settings and change the velocity curve(s) with an external program), but I probably play them a little differently knowing how they respond differently to my playing. Same situation playing two different acoustic pianos though. You adapt to their regulation don't you? And perhaps have one regulated differently if you find it too different from others you like.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Ravenscroft 275, True Keys American D, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2021457 - 01/26/13 01:35 AM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: dmd]
Charles Cohen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 936
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
As I understand it, there are two mappings (transformations) involved in generating a DP (or synth) sound:

1. The mapping of actual key velocity to MIDI "velocity" values;

2) The mapping of MIDI "velocity" values to the loudness of the generated sound.

Adjusting the keyboard "touch" characteristics (through a software menu, or a knob) changes mapping 1. And it affects all voices.

Mapping 2 is determined _for each voice_, in the definition of that voice.

On the Casio PX-350, there's a "Rock Piano" voice. As well as being harsh, it's _loud_. The output sounds like a piano that's been passed through a compressor. It's very tough to play that voice softly; even fingered "p", it comes out "f". It's just what you need to be heard over a band, without pounding the keyboard.

I'll bet the effect was achieved by changing the MIDI-velocity-to-loudness mapping for "Rock Piano".

An extreme example of that capability is in a proper "organ" voice. If the MIDI velocity is greater than 0, you get full volume.

I hope this doesn't add to the confusion . . .

. Charles

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#2021476 - 01/26/13 02:59 AM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: dmd]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 458
Originally Posted By: dmd
Originally Posted By: o0Ampy0o
How does this compare to sampled pianos software?

It works exactly the same.

The touchcurve must be defined for each preset.

If you know it is "exactly the same" why specify Pianoteq at all and not just give reference to all piano plug-in software?

confused

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#2021489 - 01/26/13 04:44 AM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: o0Ampy0o]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1685
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: o0Ampy0o
Originally Posted By: dmd
Originally Posted By: o0Ampy0o
How does this compare to sampled pianos software?

It works exactly the same.

The touchcurve must be defined for each preset.

If you know it is "exactly the same" why specify Pianoteq at all and not just give reference to all piano plug-in software?

confused



Because at the time, I just knew that Pianoteq works that way. I hadn't checked on the others specifically. Truth is, I still haven't ... I just went back and looked Vintage D and found it to be
Quote:
exactly the same
. Color me lazy.
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#2021490 - 01/26/13 05:01 AM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: Charles Cohen]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1685
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen
As I understand it, there are two mappings (transformations) involved in generating a DP (or synth) sound:

1. The mapping of actual key velocity to MIDI "velocity" values;

2) The mapping of MIDI "velocity" values to the loudness of the generated sound.

Adjusting the keyboard "touch" characteristics (through a software menu, or a knob) changes mapping 1. And it affects all voices.


That makes sense.

However, it is my understanding that the MIDI values generated by key presses vary between digital values from 0 to 127 and should be set at the factory. They should be not have to be adjusted by the user.

Also, in the case of the Kawai VPC the user must do this mapping (on the instrument) for each software package. You would think each software package would be happy to receive MIDI values between 0 and 127 regardless of what they do with them after that.

So, again (In my mind) the logic breaks down.
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#2021501 - 01/26/13 05:32 AM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: dmd]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3666
Loc: North Carolina
dmd: My piano cannot reach velocity 127. I can use the piano software's velocity curve to compensate.

Also, consider calibration.
How hard must you strike a key to reach to 127? That may vary from one keyboard to another.
How hard must you strike a key to reach to any given velocity value? That, too, may vary from one keyboard to another.
The velocity curve allows you to adjust MIDI velocity vs. strike velocity over the entire range.

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#2021516 - 01/26/13 06:32 AM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: dmd]
EO3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 142
Good that this issue is up for discussion.

I think velocity/key touch things are confusing when using keyboard and software sounds. It's even not so easy to figure out what's the best setting is when playing with inbuilt sounds (because it's very easy to adjust to different key touch levels, and key touch also makes sound more mellow or sparkling), and it's much more confusing with software, because then you not only have to figure out key touch levels on keyboard that corresponds naturally with software sounds, but also have think about software velocity as well.

In my opinion, I find it strange that keyboard key touch settings also change sound on software instruments... It's odd.

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#2021530 - 01/26/13 07:42 AM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: dmd]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 458
Originally Posted By: EO3
Good that this issue is up for discussion.

I did not locate nearly enough information when I searched for it using Google.

It makes sense that each piano model would have a personality to communicate to the voice software, (internal or external), and that the software would have a general personality to communicate to potential keyboards......each influenced by the gear used during programming/writing the code.

Seems to me that the VPC1 has been fine-tuned to speak clearly to the 4 programs featured. In alter-universes such as graphics there are preconceived parameters to choose from for common applications much like selecting from a list of popular printer's drivers. With virtual instrument software, this would be something more often performed by seasoned users.

In the VPC there remains a degree that is subjective and room for customization left for the user. But the "out of the box" gets them to a plateau at a high enough elevation to produce favorable results if the user does not make any adjustments. ...so I am thinking at least.

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#2021555 - 01/26/13 09:58 AM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: MacMacMac]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1685
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
dmd: My piano cannot reach velocity 127. I can use the piano software's velocity curve to compensate.

Also, consider calibration.
How hard must you strike a key to reach to 127? That may vary from one keyboard to another.
How hard must you strike a key to reach to any given velocity value? That, too, may vary from one keyboard to another.
The velocity curve allows you to adjust MIDI velocity vs. strike velocity over the entire range.


Exactly !

But you should only have to create one velocity curve to compensate for that.

That is why it doesn't make sense to me to have to enter a velocity curve for each preset in the software. The velocity curve for a given instrument should be constant. Once you have it ... you have it.
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#2021607 - 01/26/13 11:40 AM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: dmd]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3666
Loc: North Carolina
I'm not sure what you mean by "preset", nor what you mean by a separate velocity curve for each preset.

In any case ... I have several piano libraries. I set the velocity curve for each of them. Some would be fine to my hands and ears if they shared the same curve. But others not.

So, I'd need only one velocity curve to compensate for the piano's touch sensitivity and responsiveness. But I must still alter the curve to suit each particular piano library, because:

1. They vary. I can't imagine that every acoustic piano responds to the touch in the same way. Nor can it be that they're all recorded in the same way.

2. My sensibilities and judgements must surely differ from one piano library to another.

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#2021628 - 01/26/13 12:18 PM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: MacMacMac]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1685
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
I'm not sure what you mean by "preset", nor what you mean by a separate velocity curve for each preset.


Well, you said you have several libraries.

Let's pick one example. I assume you have Galaxy Vintage D.

Load up Vintage D.

Select BRILLIANT POP from the global presets.
Check out the velocity curve. It is increasing from left to right from 0 to 127.
BEND it to something else.
Save this multi as TEST.

Then select CUT-THROUGH from the global presets.
Check out the velocity curve. It is increasing from left to right from 0 to 127.
Now you have to change the velocity curve AGAIN.
This is the part that makes no sense to me.

If I have already set the velocity curve for my instrument I should not have to do it over and over again.


Since, I do have to save it OVER AND OVER, it is not a velocity curve for my instrument. It is a personal velocity curve for how I wish this particular preset to sound when I use it.

And that is fine but Pianoteq goes as far as supplying users with predefined velocity curves which are supposedly matched with a particular instrument. Well, if that is true, why do we have to keep defining it over and over for each preset ?

It would make more sense if they would say the velocity curve is just there for us to modify how the preset functions but please do not attach a particular keyboard name to it.

It would be like my having to keep selecting the audio device driver I am using for each of the presets. IT IS THE SAME FOR ALL OF THEM !!! HELLO ???

Note to MAC: My rantings are not aimed at you. I am just trying to emphasize the ridiculousness of this, as I see it.






Edited by dmd (01/26/13 12:26 PM)
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#2021636 - 01/26/13 12:37 PM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: dmd]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3666
Loc: North Carolina
OK, now I understand presets.

I don't use them. Well, actually I do. I choose one from the list, the one that goes by the name "concert hall" or similar, depending on the library. (Often this is the default upon initial installation.)

Then I tweak it as I see fit, velocity curves, reverb, and all the rest. Then I save it. That's all I do. And that's all I use (for that library).

So this is why I've never been bothered by (or even been aware of) the problem that you cited.

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#2021656 - 01/26/13 01:16 PM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: MacMacMac]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1685
Loc: Pennsylvania
It really does not affect me anymore because I have stopped trying to develop the "perfect" sound through software packages.

I really just grab one of the presets and play with it as is for awhile just for something different. I may make a quick adjustment to the velocity curve if I wish to keep the volume lower on a particular piece of music. Software sounds have become just a sort of diversion for me now.
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#2021765 - 01/26/13 05:06 PM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: dmd]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 562
Originally Posted By: dmd
Load up Vintage D.

Select BRILLIANT POP from the global presets.
Check out the velocity curve.... Save this multi as TEST.

Then select CUT-THROUGH from the global presets.
Check out the velocity curve...
Now you have to change the velocity curve AGAIN.
This is the part that makes no sense to me.

If I have already set the velocity curve for my instrument I should not have to do it over and over again.


I don't really get your complaint. You don't have to change the velocity curve when you changed the pre-set. You changed it because you didn't like the timbre vs velocity of that preset. i.e. you didn't like that preset. So you either modify the settings of the preset (the velocity curve is just one way to modify the timbre of the preset, and the last thing I would change), or you use another preset). I don't expect to like most of the presets in any instrument. I either find one I like best and use it as is or tweak it until I like it.

Am I missing something else you are saying?
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Ravenscroft 275, True Keys American D, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2021895 - 01/26/13 09:46 PM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: Macy]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1685
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Macy


I don't really get your complaint. You don't have to change the velocity curve when you changed the pre-set. You changed it because you didn't like the timbre vs velocity of that preset. i.e. you didn't like that preset. So you either modify the settings of the preset (the velocity curve is just one way to modify the timbre of the preset, and the last thing I would change), or you use another preset). I don't expect to like most of the presets in any instrument. I either find one I like best and use it as is or tweak it until I like it.

Am I missing something else you are saying?



Well, it depends upon what you think a velocity curve is for.
If you think a velocity curve is available to allow you to modify the way the software sound is generated for your own personal preference, then modifying for each preset makes sense.

However, if you think the velocity curve is available to allow you to make adjustments in the MIDI signal coming in from the digital piano because your digital piano does not send standard signals (0-127), then it should not be necessary to do it for each preset.

I also pointed out that Pianoteq provides velocity curves (on their website) that have been created to match various digital pianos. That would suggest that the curve is being inserted to standardize the signals being delivered from the various digital pianos. Yet, even with that, it is necessary to put a velocity curve in to each preset. Those two concepts cannot coexist logically.



Edited by dmd (01/26/13 09:50 PM)
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#2021947 - 01/27/13 01:41 AM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: dmd]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 562
Originally Posted By: dmd
Originally Posted By: Macy


I don't really get your complaint. You don't have to change the velocity curve when you changed the pre-set. You changed it because you didn't like the timbre vs velocity of that preset. i.e. you didn't like that preset. So you either modify the settings of the preset (the velocity curve is just one way to modify the timbre of the preset, and the last thing I would change), or you use another preset). I don't expect to like most of the presets in any instrument. I either find one I like best and use it as is or tweak it until I like it.

Am I missing something else you are saying?



Well, it depends upon what you think a velocity curve is for.
If you think a velocity curve is available to allow you to modify the way the software sound is generated for your own personal preference, then modifying for each preset makes sense.

However, if you think the velocity curve is available to allow you to make adjustments in the MIDI signal coming in from the digital piano because your digital piano does not send standard signals (0-127), then it should not be necessary to do it for each preset.


I think it is to adjust your keyboard response to the response used to create the software piano. That includes making sure your keyboard can actually output 0-127. So one velocity curve should work for all of the presets of any given piano.

You seem to be missing my question to you. Why are you changing the velocity curve for each preset? Apparently because you don't like the way some of the presets sound with just one velocity curve. So you are using the velocity curve to change the sound of individual presets per your individual preference. No law against it, but I would change just about every other parameter before I did that.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Ravenscroft 275, True Keys American D, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2021954 - 01/27/13 02:01 AM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: dmd]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 562
Originally Posted By: dmd

I also pointed out that Pianoteq provides velocity curves (on their website) that have been created to match various digital pianos. That would suggest that the curve is being inserted to standardize the signals being delivered from the various digital pianos. Yet, even with that, it is necessary to put a velocity curve in to each preset. Those two concepts cannot coexist logically.


I don't know why Pianoteq does anything. But as for using different velocity curves for different pianos, that makes sense to me. Do you expect the timbre variation with key velocity to be the same on a Steinway vs a Yamaha acoustic piano? Of course not. Do you expect the sample linearity to be the same on two pianos when created by different pianists or different technicians during post-processing (with a rare exception these sample sets are not created by machines that produce linear velocity changes). Not very likely. So it's quite likely a user might want to calibrate individual piano sample sets to match their opinion of what the timbre vs velocity sounds like for a given piano. Interestingly, I use the same velocity curve for the Vintage D as the Ivory II American D, but not the Ivory II Yamaha. So the Galaxy people and Synthogy people must pretty much agree about how a Steinway responds, but I don't agree with Synthogy about their velocity curve for their Yamaha.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Ravenscroft 275, True Keys American D, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2021993 - 01/27/13 05:33 AM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: Charles Cohen]
kurtie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/10
Posts: 195
Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen

1. The mapping of actual key velocity to MIDI "velocity" values;

2) The mapping of MIDI "velocity" values to the loudness of the generated sound.


This.

As I understand it corretly it works like this:

1. A key is pressed on the controller at a given force.
2. The sensors on the controller translate that to a velocity value. It has not to be between 0 and 127 because the controller internally can work with more resolution than MIDI.
3. The controller maps the velocity value to a MIDI velocity between 0-127. This mapping can be linear or not. Any kind of function can be applied here. Here is the point where the VPC touch curves are applied.
4. The MIDI note is send from the controller to the host computer and it reaches an application. Let's say it is a virtual piano.
5. The virtual piano takes the MIDI velocity and applies the curve for that particular preset. Some presets will have softer touches, some will have harder ones.
6. The sound is generated depending on the final value.

Is confusing because with any of the two transformations the other can be compensated, so as long as the user can edit one of the transformations it can set up the touch it wants.

The first transform can be used to tweak how hard / soft the controller is played, the second transform it's more the preset character (you don't want many dynamics in a clavichord, for instance), so that when the first transform is set up correctly, different presets will play well without the need of tweaking the curve in the software piano for each preset.

But if one likes to customize sounds, tweaking the curve in the sofware piano for each preset is the way to go.

Regards,
Kurt.-


Edited by kurtie (01/27/13 05:33 AM)

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#2022028 - 01/27/13 07:50 AM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: Macy]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1685
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Macy
I think it is to adjust your keyboard response to the response used to create the software piano. That includes making sure your keyboard can actually output 0-127. So one velocity curve should work for all of the presets of any given piano.


BINGO ! We absolutely agree on that. That is my point, although apparently poorly delivered.

I, too, am trying to make the point that we should NOT have to keep changing the velocity curve for each preset and THEREFORE .... THEREFORE ... the option to change it should not be available within each preset. If the velocity curve is made available in order to account for the way different keyboards may vary in their MIDI signals, then it (the velocity curve) should be placed somewhere in a place where you modify it ONCE and then leave it alone.



Quote:
Why are you changing the velocity curve for each preset?


Let's suppose, for a moment, that my keyboard does not send the complete range (0-127) of keypress velocities. If I wish to correct that, I have to change the velocity curve to accomodate that issue. AND ... because each preset presents me with a new, default velocity curve, I have to keep making that same change in every preset because the default velocity curve (for each preset) is not correct for my keyboard. That is my complaint, in a nutshell.


Now, if you do not change the velocity curve for each preset ... great. Apparently, the default velocity curve works fine for you keyboard. But, if you found that you could not get the proper dynamics with the default velocity curve ... you would have to modify the velocity curve. Then you would find yourself modifying it in every preset, also. Then, the folly of having the velocity curve in every preset would become more apparent.
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#2022037 - 01/27/13 08:29 AM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: kurtie]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1685
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: kurtie
The first transform can be used to tweak how hard / soft the controller is played.


Ok, if I understand you correctly ... This first transform, of which you speak, is internal to the keyboard. It is the final attempt to make the keypresses into midi signals 0 - 127. I would suggest that this is up to the manufacturer to do properly. The only reason I can see for giving the user access to this is just in case the manufacturer did a poor job themselves.

Now, here is where it gets a little tricky ...

Pianoteq makes velocity curves available with keyboard names associated with them. If I have a Yamaha 640X, there is a velocity curve for it. If I have a Roland 505, there is a velocity curve for it.... etc ...

That being the case, it appears that Pianoteq has decided that various keyboards do not send the midi signals 0-127 properly and we must insert a velocity curve between that keyboard and their software in order for things to sound they way they intend. Otherwise, why put a keyboard name on the velocity curve ?

So, if that is the case, it would seem logical that we only should place that velocity curve into their software in a similar manner as a driver ... ONCE. Unless we change keyboards, the same velocity curve should work for every preset.

That is my complaint.

Quote:
the second transform it's more the preset character (you don't want many dynamics in a clavichord, for instance)[quote]

We agree. Of course, the manufacture should already have built-in the lack of dynamics for the clavichord preset so the user should not have to do anything.


[quote]so that when the first transform is set up correctly, different presets will play well without the need of tweaking the curve in the software piano for each preset.


We agree again.

Quote:
But if one likes to customize sounds, tweaking the curve in the sofware piano for each preset is the way to go.


Absolutely ... have at it. Enjoy.



Now ... I believe you understand and have described the process perfectly. And, in that process, you have described the need for two adjustments. The first to calibrate the keyboard so it sends standardized (0-127) midi signals AND the second to be completed within the each preset to allow the user to tweak the generated sound.

I have no problem with that.


The issue arises when I find that I need to make the first transform to the velocity curve. The only place I have to do that is within each preset. So, I end up having to put that same velocity curve into each one. That does not make sense to me.
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#2022047 - 01/27/13 08:46 AM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: dmd]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3666
Loc: North Carolina
dmd: I have Ivory 1.5. I don't use it anymore, but I remember that it has a SAVE function for the velocity curve. You can set the curve anyway you like, name it, and save it.

When loading any piano and any preset, if you don't like its velocity curve, you can replace it by loading your saved, named curve. Then you can save the preset knowing that your preferred curve will always come along with that preset.

This latter save must be done for each preset: Load the preset, load the curve, save the preset. But at least you don't have to create or re-create a curve each time.

This is not quite as good as what I think you want. But it aint bad.

It's too bad the the Galaxy pianos in Kontakt won't allow the curve to be saved separately from the presets.

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#2022055 - 01/27/13 09:08 AM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: MacMacMac]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1685
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
dmd: I have Ivory 1.5. I don't use it anymore, but I remember that it has a SAVE function for the velocity curve. You can set the curve anyway you like, name it, and save it.

When loading any piano and any preset, if you don't like its velocity curve, you can replace it by loading your saved, named curve. Then you can save the preset knowing that your preferred curve will always come along with that preset.

This latter save must be done for each preset: Load the preset, load the curve, save the preset. But at least you don't have to create or re-create a curve each time.

This is not quite as good as what I think you want. But it aint bad.

It's too bad the the Galaxy pianos in Kontakt won't allow the curve to be saved separately from the presets.


Absolutely. I don't have a real problem with doing it. I just would like to see the software designers acknowledge the need for a central place for inserting the velocity curve that is mean't to correct specific keyboard difficiencies.

Velocity curves within the presets can still be useful for users to adjust the sound of that particular preset.

Just give me a central place to enter the velocity curve for my keyboard so I don't have to keep inserting it every preset I use.

NOTE: The truth be known, I rarely (if ever) touch the velocity curves anymore. I just use the default curve and it seems to be fine.

I bring this up purely as a point of logic and I intend to make another run at Pianoteq to get them to acknowledge the need for that central velocity curve.



Now, on a related issue ... (I may have mentioned this previously)

The new Kawai VPC controller features the ability to assign a velocity curve which is designed to match the needs of 4 separate software packages, including Ivory II, Pianoteq, and others.

It appears that Kawai has put the velocity curve that should be in that central place within the software .... INSIDE ITS' MACHINE. That will work but seems backwards. But that is a topic for another day ...

Now, I need to take a nap ... I am exhausted. smile



Edited by dmd (01/27/13 09:21 AM)
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#2022308 - 01/27/13 05:51 PM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: dmd]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 562
dmd: I get it now. Sorry for being so slow.

Yes, I agree there should be a "global" velocity curve that applies to ALL the presets of any particular piano. It's purpose is to match the user's keyboard controller to the keyboard controller's velocity curve used by (or assumed by) the piano software manufacture. It should be "global" so it doesn't have to be entered for each preset of a given piano.

If the user wants to assign different velocity curves to different presets, for the purpose of modifying the characteristics of a particular preset, then that should also be an option (but not one that I would likely ever use for that purpose). A software piano like Ivory II allows the user to create velocity curves and name them so they can be quickly assigned (and saved) to separate presets to avoid entering the same velocity curve more than once. It does that in lieu of offering any "global" preset.

The reason I had such trouble understanding your point is that I use a separate program (between my MIDI input driver) and the piano software for the purpose of creating "global" velocity curves. I set the velocity curve in that program (which I wrote myself long ago - it's very versatile allowing blending of separate curves for multiple parts of the keyboard and manually/automatically remapping the velocities of individual notes, amongst a variety of other MIDI/audio correction/analysis features) so I just never use the velocity curves provided by software pianos and never experience the problem of having to load separate curves into separate presets.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Ravenscroft 275, True Keys American D, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2022345 - 01/27/13 06:59 PM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: Macy]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1685
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Macy
dmd: I get it now. Sorry for being so slow


Oh, I am sure I had a lot to do with that. I did not present it as clearly as I might have.

Thank you for discussing it logically to the end. I feel better now that I have been able to confirm that my logic made sense. I have been trying, so far unsuccessfully, to get this point across to the folks at Pianoteq.



Quote:
The reason I had such trouble understanding your point is that I use a separate program (between my MIDI input driver) and the piano software for the purpose of creating "global" velocity curves. I set the velocity curve in that program (which I wrote myself long ago - it's very versatile allowing blending of separate curves for multiple parts of the keyboard and manually/automatically remapping the velocities of individual notes, amongst a variety of other MIDI/audio correction/analysis features) so I just never use the velocity curves provided by software pianos and never experience the problem of having to load separate curves into separate presets.


You wrote this program yourself ? What language did you use to accomplish this ?



Edited by dmd (01/27/13 07:04 PM)
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#2022363 - 01/27/13 07:25 PM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: dmd]
kurtie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/10
Posts: 195
Originally Posted By: dmd

That being the case, it appears that Pianoteq has decided that various keyboards do not send the midi signals 0-127 properly and we must insert a velocity curve between that keyboard and their software in order for things to sound they way they intend. Otherwise, why put a keyboard name on the velocity curve ?

So, if that is the case, it would seem logical that we only should place that velocity curve into their software in a similar manner as a driver ... ONCE. Unless we change keyboards, the same velocity curve should work for every preset.


I think I see your point. Yes, it would make sense having, in a software like Pianoteq, a global velocity curve applied to the MIDI input, and then a velocity curve for each one of the presets.

Regards,
Kurt.-

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#2022397 - 01/27/13 08:35 PM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: kurtie]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1685
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: kurtie
Originally Posted By: dmd

That being the case, it appears that Pianoteq has decided that various keyboards do not send the midi signals 0-127 properly and we must insert a velocity curve between that keyboard and their software in order for things to sound they way they intend. Otherwise, why put a keyboard name on the velocity curve ?

So, if that is the case, it would seem logical that we only should place that velocity curve into their software in a similar manner as a driver ... ONCE. Unless we change keyboards, the same velocity curve should work for every preset.


I think I see your point. Yes, it would make sense having, in a software like Pianoteq, a global velocity curve applied to the MIDI input, and then a velocity curve for each one of the presets.

Regards,
Kurt.-



GREAT !!! Another disciple ! LOL ...

Thank you for responding.
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#2022604 - 01/28/13 03:18 AM Re: Touch Curve Theory Unleashed [Re: dmd]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 562
Originally Posted By: dmd
Originally Posted By: Macy
The reason I had such trouble understanding your point is that I use a separate program (between my MIDI input driver) and the piano software for the purpose of creating "global" velocity curves. I set the velocity curve in that program (which I wrote myself long ago - it's very versatile allowing blending of separate curves for multiple parts of the keyboard and manually/automatically remapping the velocities of individual notes, amongst a variety of other MIDI/audio correction/analysis features) so I just never use the velocity curves provided by software pianos and never experience the problem of having to load separate curves into separate presets.


You wrote this program yourself ? What language did you use to accomplish this ?


That particular program was written with Real Studio, because it is a cross-platform IDE for Mac and PC. But I never commercialized it, so I never wrote PC versions of the low-level MIDI/audio routines. Hence it only runs on Macs now.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Ravenscroft 275, True Keys American D, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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