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#2019083 - 01/22/13 02:21 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: anotherscott]
kurtie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/10
Posts: 207
Originally Posted By: anotherscott

It's not that straight-foward, in that (as has been discussed before) manufacturers of low-volume specialty items (which are what pianos are, compared to computers) cannot manufacture, distribute, and sell commodity electronic components as cheaply as computer companies can.


So true. Specially if custom chips have to be designed. If Intel tomorrow would decide that it is going to develop DPs, in approximately 18 monthes we would have the DP of our dreams. Well, more or less because the first action would probably suck grin . But the chipset would probably blow the rest of DPs: unprecedent storage and processing capabilities.

Of course that is not going to happen. Never. Intel's deep pockets need to sell lots of millions of units or the investment needed is just too big. I don't know DPs figures, but I assume that probably any DP is going to sell even 1 million of units... there is a brand that can sell 1 million of DPs per year? all the brands together? Really don't know.

Another examples on the same line of thought: Wii, PlayStation 3 or Xbox 360, around 50 million units sold each. Otherwise they could cost a lot more to produce.

If DPs would be sold by millions, they would cost a lot less of what they cost now.

Regards,
Kurt.-

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#2019106 - 01/22/13 03:10 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: kurtie]
HisKidd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 198
Loc: AL/USA
Still fascinated with trying to figure out what the teasers mean. On the facebook page: facebook.com/kawaivpc, one of the pics reads: "Finally, a virtual piano controller that plays out of the box." The teaser also displays icons for Ivory II, Pianoteq, and Galaxy, Vintage D. Just using common sense here... it can't play "out of the box," unless the virtual pianos are already loaded. I see one wire. I'm guessing the connection from the board to the computer is via usb, and that the reason for the computer is that the four virtuals have agreed to allow Kawai to use its own propriety operating system (that would be the screen shot of the computer), and not ILock, DAWS, or Kontakt. What is the remaining icon? I'm hoping for the Nord library. This board will probably also include either RM3 or GF with the new three sensors per key. Now if you had that action along with these libraries already preloaded in the board, that would be a killer controller. Keeping my fingers crossed until NAAM arrives!
_________________________
Keyboards are the best therapy I know of...
______________________________________________
Kawai MP6 stage piano
DCM CX-17 Monitors
Sennheiser HD 205, DJ series, headset

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#2019127 - 01/22/13 03:43 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 718
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
Yes, that was my understanding as well, however the more I think about it, the more I doubt it. With all my respect, it's way too revolutionary to be done by Kawai. And it will be expensive, certainly more than MP10. "Plays out of the box" is just a catch phrase. In a matter of days it will get twisted in a way, like "you get it out of the box, connect it to your computer, Install Ivory 2 (optionally included) and voila - it plays out of the box" laugh
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#2019201 - 01/22/13 06:14 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Nomadness Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 145
Loc: Friday Harbor, WA
Actually, "plays out of the box" means that it will let you perform this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUlniydKvy0

smile


Edited by Nomadness (01/22/13 06:30 PM)
_________________________
Nomadic Research Labs
PX-5S aboard sailboat

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#2019204 - 01/22/13 06:16 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
TubularBills Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/28/12
Posts: 9
Loc: France
And I just ordered the ES7... hope this won't make me regret it.

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#2019222 - 01/22/13 06:38 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: TubularBills]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
I assumed it was just a play on "think out of the box," but with something lost in translation.
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Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
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#2019230 - 01/22/13 06:46 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
It's a high end piano CONTROLLER ..... think exactly like a LACHNIT !!!!
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#2019245 - 01/22/13 07:04 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Hideki Matsui]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9196
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
I assumed it was just a play on "think out of the box," but with something lost in translation.


_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2019247 - 01/22/13 07:06 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Dr Popper]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
It's a high end piano CONTROLLER ..... think exactly like a LACHNIT !!!!

Don't look at us. Wild speculation is only natural due to the dearth of direct info due to the specification striptease due to the approaching NAMM. That, and everyone has been rightly expecting breakthrough DPs for the last decade or so and for whatever reasons they never seem to appear, just the same old warmed over loops from the same old sample sessions.
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#2019257 - 01/22/13 07:20 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: anotherscott]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2207
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Either that or they're thinking that such a MIDI string must be an error? At any rate, I agree, a DAW should not toss out--or create!--any info, it should record the MIDI stream faithfully.


I suspect that's the reason. It's probably got something to do with the fact that the DAW probably converts the MIDI into it's own internal format, and this is the best it can do with such a MIDI sequence. Remember - DAWs allow events to be edited in all kinds of ways, and it would be messy to try to retain this strange sequence. Maybe what's needed is for DAWs to indeed use the Note-On/Note-Off translation, but somehow add a note-specific damper control channel that makes it obvious to the user what is going on. It would be a very busy screen though if there were lots of notes performing partial repeats simultaneously though.

Originally Posted By: CyberGene
Originally Posted By: Nigeth
...MP6....

...escapement emulation would have been nice too...



There is an escapement emulation in MP6. It's strange that you haven't noticed it.


Yes and no. It has the let-off feel of "escapement", but it does not have double-escapement simulation, which requires a tri-sensor action or something that allows un-damped shallow repeats. Folks often confuse the two types of escapement, and Nigeth may have been referring to double-escapement. (?)

Greg.

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#2019279 - 01/22/13 08:06 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
This has been an increasingly interesting thread.

One thing I don't understand is how anyone participating in this discussion could consider Nord sounds as a potential 4th icon. The first three are software pianos for keyboards. None are the sounds of another digital keyboard brand.

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#2019287 - 01/22/13 08:30 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9196
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Indeed, the product is called 'Virtual Piano Controller' for a reason.

Any thoughts on what the fourth icon will represent?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2019290 - 01/22/13 08:34 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Nomadness Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 145
Loc: Friday Harbor, WA
An in-house software piano product?
_________________________
Nomadic Research Labs
PX-5S aboard sailboat

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#2019292 - 01/22/13 08:39 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
As Nomadness suggested, the logical one is a Kawai software piano:


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#2019316 - 01/22/13 09:16 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: HisKidd]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3224
Originally Posted By: HisKidd
I'm guessing [Ivory and Pianoteq] are giving Kawai permission to use the VPC's onboard software to run these two virual pianos.

Nah... the VPC wouldn't be able to "run" these things without having a computer inside, which as mentioned earlier, wouldn't seem to make sense based on it its price and on its being called a controller.

Originally Posted By: HisKidd
Will Nord's library also be available?

Nord's samples are designed to run in their own proprietary environment. And I expect that Nord would be about as enthusiastic about making their piano samples available to a competitor like Kawai as Kawai would be about selling their actions to Nord. ;-)

Originally Posted By: Nigeth
So it seems like this is just a list of which of the companies offer sample sets that are compatible with/were approved by Kawai for the VPC.

I wonder why they even mention that since it most probably is a midi controller so any sample set should work


Originally Posted By: HisKidd
If the VPC comes with the software for the Ivory II; Pianoteq; Galaxy Vintage D; (and a fourth choice)... then this could be interesting.

Now HERE I think we could be on to something... I'm going to guess that Kawai has made arrangements with the makers of Ivory, Pianoteq, Galaxy, and a fourth software maker to include their products in the box, i.e. free with the purchase of the VPC. You still need your own computer, but the VPC purchase will give you everything else you need, including, say, their own simple-to-install host software that will spare new users the complication of figuring out how to get multiple piano libraries working on their PC and optimizing various settings. And it could handle the protection so that a separate ilok will not be required (though that might mean that the piano libraries will not run unless connected to the VPC).

It may not be as ideal as having these sounds "built into" the piano as so many here want, but if they give you a great action and a simple, reliable, cost effective way to drive a variety of the most popular soft pianos, I think this would be a very appealing product.

James, if I'm right, what do I win? I'll be glad to give you an address to send my VPC. ;-)

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#2019318 - 01/22/13 09:21 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2207
Loc: Sydney, Australia
And if they're included, that would mean those virtual pianos would finally be available in stores! Imagine that.

Greg.

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#2019347 - 01/22/13 10:16 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: anotherscott]
Nomadness Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 145
Loc: Friday Harbor, WA
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
James, if I'm right, what do I win? I'll be glad to give you an address to send my VPC. ;-)

I'll send my address too, if I nailed it in the fourth icon sweepstakes... whistle

Seriously, I'm liking the looks of this more and more. Will be on the edge of my seat awaiting pricing and other details.
_________________________
Nomadic Research Labs
PX-5S aboard sailboat

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#2019350 - 01/22/13 10:19 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Stevesie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/12
Posts: 45
A decent built in ASIO interface would be cool, too.

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#2019352 - 01/22/13 10:23 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2207
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Careful, or Dr Popper's head will...um...pop. ;^)

Greg.

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#2019386 - 01/22/13 11:33 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: sullivang]
HisKidd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 198
Loc: AL/USA
O.K... Let's get specific on the last icon, James. I've already mentioned this in my earlier thread as a possibility; and I'm guessing the 4th icon will be Kawai's own sampling of it's EX grand, and possibly one or two other Kawai samples (similar to Ivory II). Whether the software comes in the box for the other three, or it's already installed makes no matter. The point is; once loaded, You would have an incredible controller - especially if it has either RM3 or GF with 3 sensor per key action. We also discussed speakers earllier. From the picture of the computer on top of the board, it appears there are also onboard speakers. I think these specifics would make for a great seller (with the action being the big appeal). Ding, ding, winner, James?
_________________________
Keyboards are the best therapy I know of...
______________________________________________
Kawai MP6 stage piano
DCM CX-17 Monitors
Sennheiser HD 205, DJ series, headset

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#2019398 - 01/22/13 11:59 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Tony Maggio Online   happy
Junior Member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 18
What if the 4th icon is an electric piano library?
_________________________
Kawai CA63

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#2019401 - 01/23/13 12:01 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
And if the 4th icon is AcousticSamples Kawai Pro software I win because by game show standards I did not talk all around it and named the specific product that, meeting the criteria of the previous three, actually exists as an independent piano software plug-in and is not some hypothetical sampling made by Kawai (i.e. "in-house" "a fourth software maker" or "Kawai's own") for the VPC.

............. smile smile smile smile smile.............


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#2019404 - 01/23/13 12:06 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
If anyone has previously suggested AcousticSamples Kawai Pro and not specified it would be "the 4th" icon I trump them too. smile

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#2019423 - 01/23/13 01:21 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9196
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Hmmm...not sure our marketing budget would stretch to prizes, however I'm hoping to have a batch of miniature VPC1 keyrings made. wink
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2019426 - 01/23/13 01:46 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 718
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
Here's my answer for the 4th icon and VPC1 keyring competition:

Alicia's Keys wink
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#2019510 - 01/23/13 08:41 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
HisKidd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 198
Loc: AL/USA
James...
It's 8:30 a.m. here in the U.S. on Wednesday before NAAM begins. Perhaps you've not filled in that 4th icon because it represents Kawai's own virtual piano or piano set; info that would not be revealed until tomorrow. Stands to reason since Kawai does not sample other piano brands in its own DP's. A Kawai Virtual Piano or pianos in the box would be a great product to include with this new controller, and it would also make a great stand-alone seller. Why would Kawai approve some other manufactuer's virtual piano sample of their own piano (such as Acoustic Samples EX Pro), when they could do it better themselves? Can't wait to find answers to this mystery. Key-chain or no key-chain; I'm betting the action on this new board will set it apart from every other controller. That and great virtual piano software will make this a much desired product!
_________________________
Keyboards are the best therapy I know of...
______________________________________________
Kawai MP6 stage piano
DCM CX-17 Monitors
Sennheiser HD 205, DJ series, headset

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#2019592 - 01/23/13 11:12 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
OT?

Irrelevant to the upcoming announcement perhaps, but it still makes you think: how impossibly cheap could on an onboard computer capable of running e.g. Pianoteq actually become for a DP manufacturer now and in the future...


http://www.itworld.com/hardware/337460/10-weird-and-wonderful-raspberry-pi-hacks

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#2019598 - 01/23/13 11:22 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 718
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
I've decided to build a small home theater PC at home to use it with my TV two weeks ago. I've used an existing HDD, so I bought a miniITX case with Foxconn motherboard, Intel Celeron dual core CPU and 4GB of DDR3 RAM. All for a total of 170 Euro. And that is a big retail store which is famous for higher prices. If I have gone to a garage type reseller, I could have paid probably about 120 Euro. I've already tested it with Pianoteq and Vintage D - it works flawlessly.

Now, imagine this being used by a big manufacturer such as Kawai, etc. They don't need a computer case, they'll put some small SSD drive and they can negotiate huge quantities for some ridiculous prices. We're talking here about 100 Euro or even less. Put some Linux on top and with almost no hassle you'll have ready for playing Ivory II, Vintage D, Pianoteq, etc. What they need to do is integrate it into their controller.

So, why aren't they doing it?


Edited by CyberGene (01/23/13 11:22 AM)
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#2019720 - 01/23/13 03:43 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: CyberGene]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4345
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: CyberGene
So, why aren't they doing it?

A better DP computing platform IMO would be ARM or MIPS with SDHC card and Linux (like the Raspberry Pi TheJourney was pointing to above but you might need a bit more processing power). Intel/AMD solutions are expensive, complex, require chipset support, are too tied to PC hardware, and Windows has too much overhead and isn't an RTOS, so you need a ton more resource to satisfy a real time dependent application like sample playback. Get a Chinese manufacturer to make the board for ~$50.

Why don't we see this? It is a mystery, but the technology is perhaps too new for their old engineers to embrace. I suppose we need to give them a few more years. Meanwhile, keep rolling your own high end DPs at home while the product vacuum exists, the VPC may help in this regard.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#2019727 - 01/23/13 04:03 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2207
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Dewster: kickstarter.com ? ;^)

Greg.

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