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#2022777 - 01/28/13 11:25 AM Re: From what size does a grand piano make sense? [Re: boyonahill]
A441 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 208
Loc: N.Eastham, MA.

The Mason & Hamlin model "B" at 5'4" I find very impressive.

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#2022783 - 01/28/13 11:31 AM Re: From what size does a grand piano make sense? [Re: boyonahill]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5317
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: boyonahill
A big upright Piano like the Yamaha U3 is 131 cm (51 1/2") high.

A small grand like the Yamaha C1 has a depth of 161cm (5'3") (and there are even smaller grands).

The depth measurement for the grands includes the keyboards, so I guess the C1 and U3 have a pretty similar size on their soundboards?.

So, from what size does a grand piano make sense compared to a nice upgright piano like Yamaha U3 or U1? Something like the C1? Or bigger, perhaps like the C3 186cm (6'1")?

It might seem odd to the purely objective observer but, in my experience, at least, most piano buyers do not make their buying decision between grands and verticals purely on the basis of tone performance. If this were the case large vertical pianos would outsell small grand pianos but, at least in the product line I’m most familiar with, they do not.

People buy small grand pianos for a variety of reasons; aesthetics being high among them. Action performance is also high on the list.

Many years back in the bad old days it was true that most small grand pianos—those shorter than, say, 160 cm (5’ 3”)—sounded pretty bad. Their scales were unbalanced and, in a misguided attempt to obtain more “power” excessively massive hammers were used. Not only was the lowest half-octave pretty much useless, the whole bass sections often sounded dull and tubby. The bass-to-tenor transitions were usually rough and uneven sounding. These were, by most every standard, un-musical atrocities that had rightfully earned their somewhat derisive Piano Shaped Object titles.

But, that was then and this is now.

Times have changed. Piano designers (and manufacturers) have taken another look at these instruments and the modern small grand piano is often quite nice. Despite what the traditionalist might tell us, there is a growing selection of relatively short—say 175 cm (5’ 9”) and below—grand pianos now available. You may have to look beyond the large, traditional manufacturers to find them, however. And some of them—to cite just one example, the Walter 175—will hold their own against traditional pianos that are significantly longer and larger (and, for that, more expensive).

As well, there are a growing number of 150 cm (4’ 11”) grand pianos that are earning reputations as credible musical instruments in spite of their diminutive length. And in spite of their often very low prices. There is a growing selection of very nice short grand pianos available for less than $10k. It might pay to broaden your search.

The market has changed and it is no longer accurate to simply write these pianos off solely because of their length.

ddf


Edited by Del (01/28/13 11:39 AM)
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#2022984 - 01/28/13 05:22 PM Re: From what size does a grand piano make sense? [Re: boyonahill]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7235
Loc: torrance, CA
Quote:
It takes time to learn what you like, and you want to avoid making costly mistakes......

Often as a beginner you are wowed by the extremes, and only later you learn to appreciate the subtle differences more refined products bring. This process can easily cost you much money, I try to fast forward by asking experienced people in this case!

The experience of other people is certainly worthwhile, but without a specific understanding of what's most important to you (for example, what you find lacking in your M5J), other people's experience will be hit and miss in relation to your best possible choice.

You have a basic Yamaha vertical. The examples you've chosen are a tall Yamaha artist vertical and a smallish Yamaha artist grand. What is it that you would hope to get out of one of those pianos that you don't have in your M series? It seems that you're willing to give Yamaha a shot at selling you another piano, so I guess you don't hate Yamaha. grin, and it could be useful too to understand what you like about Yamaha pianos.
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#2023010 - 01/28/13 06:21 PM Re: From what size does a grand piano make sense? [Re: boyonahill]
Norbert Offline
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+1

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#2023012 - 01/28/13 06:37 PM Re: From what size does a grand piano make sense? [Re: boyonahill]
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2919
Loc: UK.
A grand piano makes sense if you have enough money to buy one and a big enough room to put it in.

Otherwise a U3 will do just fine.
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#2023060 - 01/28/13 08:26 PM Re: From what size does a grand piano make sense? [Re: Chris H.]
malkin Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 2619
Loc: *sigh* Salt Lake City
Originally Posted By: Chris H.
A grand piano makes sense if you have enough money to buy one and a big enough room to put it in.

And if you also want it.

Originally Posted By: Chris H.
Otherwise a U3 will do just fine.
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#2023087 - 01/28/13 09:10 PM Re: From what size does a grand piano make sense? [Re: bennevis]
boyonahill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 90
Loc: Europe
Again thank you all for your comments!

The Yamaha M5J was sold some time ago, so keeping that is no option. Yes I like Yamaha, well I'm sort of a fanboy, but I will make sure to try some other brands before I commit to any purchase. I will probably, like the last time, buy a used piano to minimize the price and loss if I change my mind.

Adding to that my next acoustic piano probably will be bought 2014, the earliest, but I like to plan ahead and know my options. Plus in this case plan ahead on the money and physical floorspace. My plan was to still my piano hunger with a Yamaha "P-165" but namm2013-thing was introduced.


Originally Posted By: bennevis
Last year, I helped out a couple choosing their first piano. Neither of them played, and the piano was for their little daughter, and they knew next to nothing about pianos or piano music (or even music...).

They wanted a new baby grand - no more than around 5 ft, to fit into their living room. I normally avoid playing such small grands, but we trudged around various showrooms playing on Essexs, K Kawais, Yamahas....and all had amorphous thuds substituting for so-called bass notes, with barely any fundamentals. There wasn't much to choose in terms of action (and I easily adapt to almost any action anyway) or even sound (to my mind, the Essex was the marginally the worst, though the most expensive), so in the end, I just told them to choose which sound they liked most - after all, they are the ones living with it. They actually went for the one whose dealer gave them the best deal.....


Always interesting to hear your comments! On the sounds and their choice, I guess there are 4 ways to spend money...

There are four ways in which you can spend money. You can spend your own money on yourself. When you do that, why then you really watch out what you’re doing, and you try to get the most for your money. Then you can spend your own money on somebody else. For example, I buy a birthday present for someone. Well, then I’m not so careful about the content of the present, but I’m very careful about the cost. Then, I can spend somebody else’s money on myself. And if I spend somebody else’s money on myself, then I’m sure going to have a good lunch! Finally, I can spend somebody else’s money on somebody else. And if I spend somebody else’s money on somebody else, I’m not concerned about how much it is, and I’m not concerned about what I get. [political analysis removed...]


http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Friedman,_Milton
_________________________
Current: Casio SA-46 + looking for a nice electronic piano
Sold: Yamaha M5J Walnut
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#2023108 - 01/28/13 09:51 PM Re: From what size does a grand piano make sense? [Re: boyonahill]
rlinkt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 320
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: boyonahill

There are four ways in which you can spend money. You can spend your own money on yourself. When you do that, why then you really watch out what you’re doing, and you try to get the most for your money. Then you can spend your own money on somebody else. For example, I buy a birthday present for someone. Well, then I’m not so careful about the content of the present, but I’m very careful about the cost. Then, I can spend somebody else’s money on myself. And if I spend somebody else’s money on myself, then I’m sure going to have a good lunch! Finally, I can spend somebody else’s money on somebody else. And if I spend somebody else’s money on somebody else, I’m not concerned about how much it is, and I’m not concerned about what I get. [political analysis removed...]
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Friedman,_Milton

While on that subject, one of my favorites:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Armchair_Economist
"[m]ost of economics can be summarized in four words: People respond to incentives."

The book is a worthwhile read.


Edited by rlinkt (01/28/13 09:55 PM)

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#2023119 - 01/28/13 10:19 PM Re: From what size does a grand piano make sense? [Re: rlinkt]
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1607
Loc: California
What I hate about economists is that they believe the whole world runs on incentives; and what I hate even more is that they are probably right.
_________________________
Art is never finished, only abandoned. - da Vinci

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#2023154 - 01/29/13 12:12 AM Re: From what size does a grand piano make sense? [Re: boyonahill]
rocklandpiano Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/26/13
Posts: 19
A big upright Piano like the Yamaha C5, (719 × 750) high.

A small grand like the Yamaha C1 has a depth of 161cm (5'3") (and there are even smaller grands).

The depth measurement for the grands includes the keyboards, so I guess the C1 have a pretty similar size on their soundboards?.

So, from what size does a grand piano make sense compared to a nice upgright piano like Yamaha U2 or U1? Something like the C1?
_________________________
Current: Casio SA-47 + looking for a nice electronic piano
Sold: Yamaha P114GS in Walnut
Playing ability: Absolute.
_________________________
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#2023173 - 01/29/13 01:15 AM Re: From what size does a grand piano make sense? [Re: boyonahill]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7235
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: boyonahil

The Yamaha M5J was sold some time ago, so keeping that is no option. Yes I like Yamaha, well I'm sort of a fanboy, but I will make sure to try some other brands before I commit to any purchase. I will probably, like the last time, buy a used piano to minimize the price and loss if I change my mind.

Adding to that my next acoustic piano probably will be bought 2014, the earliest,


I don't mean to be harsh, but your comments about being a fanboy and about your philosophy of spending are not helpful in getting a fix on what you want out of a piano - musically. Even if you sold the Yamaha a while ago, and especially if you're a fan of the brand, you should be able to express what you liked about that piano and what you hope your next piano can give you - musically - that the M was unable to deliver.

By 2124, you will have gone a considerable time with no acoustic piano. That, and your comments on spending on yourself, give me a sense that this is to be a trophy purchase, in which case the performance characteristics of the piano chosen may not be the determinant in making the choice.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#2023211 - 01/29/13 02:26 AM Re: From what size does a grand piano make sense? [Re: turandot]
boyonahill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 90
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: turandot
Originally Posted By: boyonahil

The Yamaha M5J was sold some time ago, so keeping that is no option. Yes I like Yamaha, well I'm sort of a fanboy, but I will make sure to try some other brands before I commit to any purchase. I will probably, like the last time, buy a used piano to minimize the price and loss if I change my mind.

Adding to that my next acoustic piano probably will be bought 2014, the earliest,


I don't mean to be harsh, but your comments about being a fanboy and about your philosophy of spending are not helpful in getting a fix on what you want out of a piano - musically. Even if you sold the Yamaha a while ago, and especially if you're a fan of the brand, you should be able to express what you liked about that piano and what you hope your next piano can give you - musically - that the M was unable to deliver.

By 2124, you will have gone a considerable time with no acoustic piano. That, and your comments on spending on yourself, give me a sense that this is to be a trophy purchase, in which case the performance characteristics of the piano chosen may not be the determinant in making the choice.


So the performance of a trophy wife / husband is of no importance?

:-)

With my playing ability you bet a Yamaha C3 is a trophy purchase - I'm not ashamed of that or that I've spent most of my life studying and working instead of playing the piano. And if you do a search and read posts on this site you will find that I because of my hearing will do most of my playing at low volume on a digital piano - making the a C3 even more of a show piece, that I nonetheless will enjoy looking at and experience every day.

And even if I hardly can play any songs, I love playing the piano, mostly playing what a kind person would call improvisation. And I do love the sound of a good piano, trying to get a little help from this site finding one.

I hope I will live in 2124, but I'm not sure I will. If I'm dead perhaps I'm playing a CFX in heaven :-)
_________________________
Current: Casio SA-46 + looking for a nice electronic piano
Sold: Yamaha M5J Walnut
Playing ability: Absolute Beginner(s)

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#2023245 - 01/29/13 04:03 AM Re: From what size does a grand piano make sense? [Re: boyonahill]
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2919
Loc: UK.
Actually I think it makes perfect sense for someone with modest playing ability to focus mainly on Yamaha. Yamaha make great pianos. Not saying other manufacturers don't but they have a strong reputation for quality and consistency and are one of the best know brands in the industry. Also, if boyonahill was planning to buy a used piano it's likely there will be more yamahas on the market than anything else.

Musically there is a big difference between the MJ5 and a more modern Yamaha U series upright not to mention the C series grands.

I have to say that I own a 12 year old U1 and have always been very happy with it. It gets 20+ hours playing a week by myself and my pupils and has never given me any problems. The sound suits my modest room and the touch is even and easy to control. Not to mention the fact that I bought it six years ago for a bargain price, much cheaper than than the most basic budget upright available at the time.
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

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#2023573 - 01/29/13 05:38 PM Re: From what size does a grand piano make sense? [Re: boyonahill]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7235
Loc: torrance, CA


Quote:
With my playing ability you bet a Yamaha C3 is a trophy purchase - I'm not ashamed of that or that I've spent most of my life studying and working instead of playing the piano. And if you do a search and read posts on this site you will find that I because of my hearing will do most of my playing at low volume on a digital piano - making the a C3 even more of a show piece, that I nonetheless will enjoy looking at and experience every day.

And even if I hardly can play any songs, I love playing the piano, mostly playing what a kind person would call improvisation. And I do love the sound of a good piano, trying to get a little help from this site finding one.



Dont misunderstand me. When I wrote on this thread that there are many subjective, even subconscious factors that are VALID determinants in making a decision, I wasn't kidding. There's nothing at all wrong with that, and I'm fairly certain that almost no purely objective decisions are made regarding pianos because even their objective qualities are partly subjective.

Also, level of ability should not be a limitation on the level of piano owned. Everyone is equally entitled to the best he can reasonably prvoide for himself.

It's just that when an inquiring member who asks for advice will not divulge what he actually values musically in a piano, and instead provides information about his life of study and hard work and his philosophy of spending on himslef and on others, there isn't much advice that can be given him from a musical perspective. All that can be said (at least by me) is that everyone is entitled to pursue his own dream and make his decision according to the weighting of his personal objectives. Whatever piano grabs you and sustains your interest will be the right one, but based on the information provided by you, I have no idea what it might be.

In Fine's Pianobuyer, his categories (mistakenly referred to as ratings) are based on price, prestige, and to a certain extent, performance capabilities of the instruments. It's probably a good resource companion for you in the year ahead.

_________________________
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#2024582 - 01/31/13 11:11 AM Re: From what size does a grand piano make sense? [Re: boyonahill]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3559
>Actually I think it makes perfect sense for someone with modest playing ability to focus mainly on Yamaha. Yamaha make great pianos.

This sounds to me like "It makes perfect sense to eat only carrots because carrots are healthy".
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#2024591 - 01/31/13 11:27 AM Re: From what size does a grand piano make sense? [Re: boyonahill]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14140
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
Times have changed. Piano designers (and manufacturers) have taken another look at these instruments and the modern small grand piano is often quite nice. Despite what the traditionalist might tell us, there is a growing selection of relatively short—say 175 cm (5’ 9”) and below—grand pianos now available. You may have to look beyond the large, traditional manufacturers to find them, however. And some of them—to cite just one example, the Walter 175—will hold their own against traditional pianos that are significantly longer and larger (and, for that, more expensive).



Here's a another, perfect example of this:



Norbert


Edited by Norbert (01/31/13 11:37 AM)
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#2024602 - 01/31/13 11:42 AM Re: From what size does a grand piano make sense? [Re: Del]
Steve Cohen Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10493
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: Del
Originally Posted By: boyonahill
A big upright Piano like the Yamaha U3 is 131 cm (51 1/2") high.

A small grand like the Yamaha C1 has a depth of 161cm (5'3") (and there are even smaller grands).

The depth measurement for the grands includes the keyboards, so I guess the C1 and U3 have a pretty similar size on their soundboards?.

So, from what size does a grand piano make sense compared to a nice upgright piano like Yamaha U3 or U1? Something like the C1? Or bigger, perhaps like the C3 186cm (6'1")?

It might seem odd to the purely objective observer but, in my experience, at least, most piano buyers do not make their buying decision between grands and verticals purely on the basis of tone performance. If this were the case large vertical pianos would outsell small grand pianos but, at least in the product line I’m most familiar with, they do not.

People buy small grand pianos for a variety of reasons; aesthetics being high among them. Action performance is also high on the list.

Many years back in the bad old days it was true that most small grand pianos—those shorter than, say, 160 cm (5’ 3”)—sounded pretty bad. Their scales were unbalanced and, in a misguided attempt to obtain more “power” excessively massive hammers were used. Not only was the lowest half-octave pretty much useless, the whole bass sections often sounded dull and tubby. The bass-to-tenor transitions were usually rough and uneven sounding. These were, by most every standard, un-musical atrocities that had rightfully earned their somewhat derisive Piano Shaped Object titles.

But, that was then and this is now.

Times have changed. Piano designers (and manufacturers) have taken another look at these instruments and the modern small grand piano is often quite nice. Despite what the traditionalist might tell us, there is a growing selection of relatively short—say 175 cm (5’ 9”) and below—grand pianos now available. You may have to look beyond the large, traditional manufacturers to find them, however. And some of them—to cite just one example, the Walter 175—will hold their own against traditional pianos that are significantly longer and larger (and, for that, more expensive).

As well, there are a growing number of 150 cm (4’ 11”) grand pianos that are earning reputations as credible musical instruments in spite of their diminutive length. And in spite of their often very low prices. There is a growing selection of very nice short grand pianos available for less than $10k. It might pay to broaden your search.

The market has changed and it is no longer accurate to simply write these pianos off solely because of their length.

ddf
Del is spot on. Check some of the reviews of small grands in the Piano Buyer archives. Some of the under 5'0 grands were surprisingly well accepted and consider an excellent value alternative.
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My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2024707 - 01/31/13 03:05 PM Re: From what size does a grand piano make sense? [Re: wouter79]
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2919
Loc: UK.
Originally Posted By: wouter79
>Actually I think it makes perfect sense for someone with modest playing ability to focus mainly on Yamaha. Yamaha make great pianos.

This sounds to me like "It makes perfect sense to eat only carrots because carrots are healthy".


Not really...

More like if you are going to buy a vegetable then why not get a carrot?
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

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#2024788 - 01/31/13 05:26 PM Re: From what size does a grand piano make sense? [Re: boyonahill]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14140
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Everybody knows Yamaha makes very good pianos, some of them world class and competing with the best there is.

But at lower, entry level type price point, others can and IMHO "are" doing better.

Much better....

It's for consumers to find out which brands and models offer hopefully superior options at that level in today's market, particularly in the 10-15k price range.

Happy hunting.

Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (01/31/13 06:09 PM)
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