Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 14 of 23 < 1 2 ... 12 13 14 15 16 ... 22 23 >
Topic Options
#2022018 - 01/27/13 07:03 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 716
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
I am wondering how much hollow space there is in the VPC for an aftermarket "optimizations" such as putting a tiny PC motherboard, etc. with say Vintage D preinstalled smile Something like "Dyno-My-VPC1".
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

Top
(ads) Sweetwater / Roland
Kawai Superb Stage Piano and Controller

Click Here


#2022021 - 01/27/13 07:22 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: CyberGene]
In A Silent Way Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/13
Posts: 75
(Sorry post was cut off by mistake)

Maybe the idea stipulating that 'less is more' is fully operating on this concept. Compare to the MP10 or CA65, it's less because it's a wooden controller, but it's much more because it's the promise of a couple of decades of a real solid reliable piano touch. I'm pretty certain in 20 years from now people will remember the VPC1 as a excellent virtual piano keyboard, and the products in this aisle of the hall of fame are quite not so many, maybe the Roland V-Piano, the Korg SV series, the Yamaha Avant Grand series, and some others will be as well. In this perspective of 'less is more' though, not including any rocket science optional board or expansion card ability is certainly coherent, as the laptop market will anyway always have so much more to compete with expansion, and at constant falling prices and raising capacities.

this is the league in which it is playing. A unique product today you'd still probably be wanting to buy used in a third hand deposit in 20 years from now. But maybe the 'less' of the motto is a little too restrictive with the VPC1 : it's clearly oriented toward DAW music production or virtual instruments playing, and in the DAW music production of today, the mod wheel, the after touch and the pitch wheel remain essential expression controllers, as well as software samplers and synths articulations and modulations necessities. And it's a little different not to have on board logical MIDI features like splitting and multi-timbral routing ability, because you can certainly fix all this from within the DAW software itself, and not to have the hardware wheels and MIDI implementations for current basic modulations, because it limits the range of use strictly and for good. In this perspective, including in a panel, hidden behind a trap into the unit or as an after-market option, 2 or better 3 distinct controllers for the available expression options of software gears, as long as they remain assignable on the software side to any of the available 127 controllers value, and you can do anything you want. In the old days this was summed up into an XY matrix controller with pressure as well on hardware synths, there are certainly ways to design an elegant button for that, it might require periods of intense testing for durability, but it should not be a problem to a company like Kawai to include this as a minimal service to the people who in the end will really make use of such a virtual piano controller, or should it?

You could as well see it from a customer casuistic point of view : 1) I am a piano player, then why not buy a piano instead of a controller? ; 2) I am a music producer, I need a fully operating controller ; 3) I'm a hardware junky, I won't see the difference between the wooden keys and the plastic one anyway ; 4) I'm a home musician and I need a dp to play at night, but I most certainly then don't have the patience to catch with the knowledge graph to plug VSTIs into a mute keyboard ; and so on.

So in the end who's left with a need for this certainly excellent, but quite slightly coming short of a button VPC1?

Instead of that, Kawai could have strike in right away, or the next time, with one genuine controller of which everyone would say soon enough to advise about DAW and piano music production : don't bother pal, VPC1 all the way for you as for anyone else, it's become a standard, can't go wrong with this. (I hope this will be the case anyhow over time.)

Concerning the keyboard itself, the fact that it's not labelled GF, maybe there's a general issue concerning the superlative outdoing into the process of this labelling, all across the market, like it were with software versions at times, DeLuxe, silver, gold, platinum, titanium, polonium or what not, etc. It would be simple to clarify this for Kawai and stop calling versions and confusing the end user all the time, it would furthermore leave the other brands to their label names dropping : why Kawai not to switch to a cristal clear marketing about their product lines, and simply explain they use the best keyboard available for the line and price range of the product, in a way that involved design and technology would be easy for the end user to scale across the same keyboard label once for all? I bet the one manufacturer that is able the first to cut the superlative overbid upon this labelling, will see its sales rise every September.

Looking forward to test the VPC1 in a local store wink

iasw


Edited by In A Silent Way (01/27/13 07:58 AM)

Top
#2022029 - 01/27/13 07:51 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: CyberGene]
Nigeth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 108
Originally Posted By: CyberGene
I am wondering how much hollow space there is in the VPC for an aftermarket "optimizations" such as putting a tiny PC motherboard, etc. with say Vintage D preinstalled smile Something like "Dyno-My-VPC1".


The Case is pretty similar to the MP10 Case, the front and top of the VPC at least look like the MP10 but without the holes for the buttons.

Both are also pretty much the same dimensions, give or take an inch.

Both use the same action (as far as physical volume is concerned the VPC1 action is improved though)

So I guess that the VPC 1 will offer more space inside than the MP10

Top
#2022035 - 01/27/13 08:14 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: CyberGene]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9057
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: CyberGene
I am wondering how much hollow space there is in the VPC for an aftermarket "optimizations" such as putting a tiny PC motherboard, etc. with say Vintage D preinstalled smile Something like "Dyno-My-VPC1".


I don't believe there's a great deal of extra space inside the VPC1 cabinet, however it would be interesting to see if an Intel NUC would fit. wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#2022040 - 01/27/13 08:31 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: In A Silent Way]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2204
Loc: Sydney, Australia
[silly nonsense]

Originally Posted By: In A Silent Way


- the action is certainly good, but it seems, not as good as it would have been if it were simply the best current available one.


Indeed, and this would annoy the wisest man in the world - Jeremy Clarkson. Refer his comments about the Porsche Cayman here, at time 4:50:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riGejPAqNVw#t=4m50s

;^)

Greg.

Top
#2022044 - 01/27/13 08:42 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
Pedro_Henrique Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 74
Loc: Uberaba, Minas Gerais, Brazil
And yes, she's very wise. She said: "if you save money and can buy it, sure it's not a grand piano, but at least you're not going to study in keys that don't let you grow. But save your money, and wait to buy the best combo."

I know that only if Kawai come with a GF action on the MP series, I'll not buy the VPC. And you can figure why.
But if not, I'll prefer the VPC plus or vst or one good rack as the Integra-7.



Edited by Pedro_Henrique (01/27/13 08:48 AM)
_________________________
"But its got a crap keyboard action Dave ... no amount of great sounds help that."
Dr. Popper

Piano Student at State Conservatory Renato Frateschi - Uberaba - Minas Gerais - Brazil

Top
#2022046 - 01/27/13 08:45 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 716
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
A small PC inside with wi-fi or bluetooth, your favorite tablet/smartphone with a dedicated application to make settings, change sounds and many more things, and you've got everything you need. Is anybody thinking in that direction at all?
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

Top
#2022051 - 01/27/13 08:58 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: sullivang]
In A Silent Way Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/13
Posts: 75
Originally Posted By: sullivang
[silly nonsense]

Originally Posted By: In A Silent Way


- the action is certainly good, but it seems, not as good as it would have been if it were simply the best current available one.


The best current available one FROM KAWAI.

If it makes it silly nonsense, why just don't go with the Casio PX-150 or even the Yamaha NP11?

By design, he VPC1 is most certainly a gear that will last for 20 years without a problem, and you probably won't buy it in the first place to sell it the next semester if you like it, just like with a regular piano keyboard, so why is it so insane to ask to start from the best available action by the brand?

Again, it may simply be a labelling confusion, but then it's a communication mistake from Kawai.

Anyway, whatever you call it name it certainly is, dear Master nomothetics...

Nice day

iasw

Top
#2022065 - 01/27/13 09:27 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
Peter B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/12
Posts: 22
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
These memories can be selected by using a power button+black key combination, or through the editor software.

The power button should not have been placed on the top but rather eg to the right of the upper key (or to the left of the lower key). If you have a (fullwidth) keyboard - or something else - on top you may not be able to get to the power button or even be able to see it to verify color/selection. In addition IMO the design had been cleaner and more pleasing without the button on the top surface.

Top
#2022080 - 01/27/13 09:54 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
I'm a bit lost on the negative tone and tenor of this thread. To me the VPC is especially defined by what is is NOT and does NOT pretend to be. Like a workstation, full blown master keyboard controller, Digital Piano (with BU sound) etc. It is in basis just a very good keybed in a nice and classy casing , nothing more / nothing less. All the extra features you might want or need can be added with third party hard- and software if you like. Finally a keybed that does NOT come with all those extra bells & whistles that only some of us want , but others specifically don't need but get anyway - AND have to pay for. See it as building blocks . The most important part and basis is the VPC and that basis should be simple but very good and reliable. I think that is exactly the gap that VPC fills in and on which it delivers very well.

If your not happy with that ; you could buy an MP10 , other masterkeyboard controller, workstation or something completely different. There will certainly be people who are happy that at least now they have the choice to buy a good set of keys - and ONLY the keys - if they already have all the rest, or have specific wishes for the rest of the setup that requires different third party add-ons anyway.

If only it came with a more classy paper rest ...haha ;-)

Top
#2022094 - 01/27/13 10:18 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: JFP]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
When can I buy one of these in the US?

I think the decision to leave other controllers off was a good idea. Those mechanisms tend to create slight noises, especially if used heavily. Small workstation keyboards are readily available and usually come with many more features suited to those tasks...

That's the reason I wish the top was just flat. Too much form over function there. I'm not sure if it was cost driven because of some underling similarity to the MP10 molding, but at the VPC's price, I hope that wasn't the reason.



Edited by Hideki Matsui (01/27/13 10:23 AM)
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

Top
#2022107 - 01/27/13 10:34 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Hideki Matsui]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9057
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
When can I buy one of these in the US?


Kraft are showing end of February.

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#2022116 - 01/27/13 10:54 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: JFP]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
+1, and I cannot decide it for the moment, whether GF or RM3 is the top Kawai action. While GF beeing with the longest keys, is still the question it is necessarily the better playable one.

Key length make the finger touch position (front/back of the keys) more neutral, it can have theoretically some negative effects too (perhaps bigger inertia). Very long keys on a concert grand are partially because of the long strings which have to be hitted by the hammer at certain otpimal point far enough from the key with long enough hammer parts. Not playability is the primary issue to have the longest keys on an accoustic concert grand.

We should wait for the reviews and own experience to be able to judge.

I don't know, how heavy it would have been with GF, I guess something over 40kg could have seemed to be a showstopper for Kawai.

Stand with boxes and soundboard - what would be the pros/cons in comparison with a CA95 e.g.? Price would probably be roughly the same, I can think of only the better movability of the keyboard + separate minimal cabinet.
_________________________
Acoustic: own clavichord!, Burger&Jacoby,Biel (nice vintage vertical)
Digital: CA65; Pianoteq; Sampled:Galaxy VintageD+Vienna(Bösendorfer)
Sampletekk Black,PMI, etc...
Harpsi: Beurmann Dutch+Sampletekk, Clavichord:PMI+Wavelore+organs

Top
#2022117 - 01/27/13 10:55 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: JFP]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: JFP
I'm a bit lost on the negative tone and tenor of this thread. To me the VPC is especially defined by what is is NOT and does NOT pretend to be.

Well, it's NOT their best keys, in a case that is NOT the most ergonomic for PC use, with a UI that is NOT the most intuitive (use of the power switch & keys to select curves, no feedback whatsoever that I can see, though yes of course you can access these things and more via a PC but not a MAC).

The tone isn't so much negative or nit picky but to prod Kawai to make products that are more functional and perhaps less stylish if necessary. If this product made more sense I'd consider buying it, even though I'm pretty much against the bits and pieces approach to DPs.

Negative assessments are potentially much more valuable to manufacturers than positive. Anyone can praise a product, and manufacturers usually pay people to do so. I'm not crabbing here to make Kawai or anyone that works for them or anyone who owns their products upset. I just want better DPs - even the very best have some pretty awful things to crab about.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#2022155 - 01/27/13 11:55 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3042
Loc: Oregon
Well, if nothing else, it's generated a lot of discussion - and that's grist to Kawai's mill. Without these forum debates I suspect it would be quite difficult to get recognition for such a niche product.

Although one can bitch and moan about the VPC for what it is not, the more interesting thing will be to see how much traction it gains among the increasing number of people who exclusively play outboard VSTs (itself a rather sad testament to the DP manufacturers' generally slow pace of innovation). I would speculate that it was relatively straightforward for Kawai to re-engineer their MP10 case to accommodate the VPC, and so the presumably low investment in R&D made it worthwhile for them to float this product - almost as a toe-in-the-water.
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

Top
#2022170 - 01/27/13 12:19 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: dewster]
KLSinCT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/12
Posts: 148
Loc: Stonington, CT USA
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: JFP
I'm a bit lost on the negative tone and tenor of this thread. To me the VPC is especially defined by what is is NOT and does NOT pretend to be.

Well, it's NOT their best keys, in a case that is NOT the most ergonomic for PC use, with a UI that is NOT the most intuitive (use of the power switch & keys to select curves, no feedback whatsoever that I can see, though yes of course you can access these things and more via a PC but not a MAC).

The tone isn't so much negative or nit picky but to prod Kawai to make products that are more functional and perhaps less stylish if necessary. If this product made more sense I'd consider buying it, even though I'm pretty much against the bits and pieces approach to DPs.

Negative assessments are potentially much more valuable to manufacturers than positive. Anyone can praise a product, and manufacturers usually pay people to do so. I'm not crabbing here to make Kawai or anyone that works for them or anyone who owns their products upset. I just want better DPs - even the very best have some pretty awful things to crab about.


+1 thumb

K.
_________________________
Kevin L. Spindler
Early Keyboard Instruments
Stonington, CT
Harpsichords & Clavichords
Custom Instruments Built to Order
Rebuilding, Repair & Restoration
http://www.facebook.com/kevin.spindler.129

Top
#2022183 - 01/27/13 12:52 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
However, the price for the MP10 is about $500 too high for what it is--I'd say the mp10 should cost about $2k and the VPC should cost $1500 or so.


How about the price of the RD-700NX?


Roland is always overpriced, which is why I never recommend it unless someone has already decided that only Roland will do. Actually, it's relatively seldom recommended outright here because it's too pricey (the FP7F gets far more recommendations despite not having the studio piano voice, which is apparently divine).

The FP7F is marginal at $2000. Once you get above $2000 for a slab-style piano, in my opinion you are charging too much. I don't know of any pure digital slab that has features I consider worth more than that.


Edited by gvfarns (01/27/13 12:55 PM)

Top
#2022188 - 01/27/13 12:58 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
That's good to hear, thank you. I'm hopeful that others expressing concern about the lack of pitchbend/modulation wheels will also change their opinion once they experience how great the action feels for themselves.


They can have the wheels from my MP8 if they want. For most people, these seem to me to be quite a waste of space!

Top
#2022203 - 01/27/13 01:41 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
@Dewster

Since this VPC is made to be used with software instruments; accessing curves and switching presets can perfectly well be done from within the PC. Which is connected anyway - to run your virtual instrument(s). Don't really see the problem here. True there's no Mac version (yet) , but here are workarounds and I would be very surprised if no Mac version would come somewhere in the future.

Case is not ergonomic ; if you mean the curve, I understood so far that this is only so little that it isn't a real problem in practice. Haven't seen one in real live, but for now I'll take their word for it.

GF may be their top keybed at the moment, so why the RM3 ? I don't know the exact reason, but I'm sure the GF has been considered at some stage, but fell through, because of weight, size, cost , or another factor. And the RM3 , especially with 3rd sensor and perhaps some other improvements, is certainly not a bad keybed ! Perhaps James can enlighten us on why its rm3 and not GF, or not, but still the new rm3 looks promising and will probably end up in the Mp10 successor and who knows other models to come.

I hope it will hi the shops soon, would like to try for myself. So far I like the VPC , especially because its such a nice basic approach from where you can build up your own setup around it and make it as simple or complex as you like or need.

Top
#2022210 - 01/27/13 01:49 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 716
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
I am sorry for the silly question but what's the difference between a specially dedicated touch curve in the controller versus touch curve in the VST? I am really confused as to why this has been advertised as something special and new. Pianoteq users already have a set of touch curves for most of the MIDI-capable keyboards.

Furthermore, I've noticed that with each piano in Ivory, I need to tweak the touch curve a little - Bosendorfer, Steinway, Yamaha, Fazioli - they all need a different touch curve and that's exactly what I've done - one custom curve for the German D and one for the Italian (both created and saved as presets in the Ivory software itself). So, VPC obviously has been optimized for one specific Ivory model and not all of them.


Edited by CyberGene (01/27/13 01:52 PM)
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

Top
#2022219 - 01/27/13 02:17 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: In A Silent Way]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2204
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: In A Silent Way

If it makes it silly nonsense,....


The "silly nonsense" comment was just to warn folks that my post contained a video which is off topic - it was about cars, not digital pianos. smile

I was agreeing with you, and was showing you an example of a similar kind of thing happening with Porsche's lineup. (did you actually watch the video, and understand it?)

Greg.

Top
#2022241 - 01/27/13 03:09 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: In A Silent Way]
chicolom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 68
I'm really glad to see Kawai taking initiative and finally coming out with this type of board! Kawai's DP actions are one of their greatest assets, and people have been asking for this type of keyboard for quite a while.

When I was shopping for a keyboard over the summer to replace my aging Roland Fantom X8, I was debating between a Kawai MP6 and a MP8II/MP10, as my primary concern was getting the best action I could for the money and using software pianos. I went ahead and got the MP6, as I couldn't justify the cost of the MP10 when I knew I wasn't really going to use the other sounds/features and primarily just wanted the beefier action. If the VPC had been available at the time it would have been the obvious front runner for me.


I see it as Kawai being forward-thinking, realizing that digital piano players seek out the best AP piano sounds they can get, which usually leads them to a setup involving a outboard computer with some software pianos and a Midi controller. Instead of Kawai being stubborn and refusing to recognize that market (and only sticking to stage pianos and console pianos) they've opened up a new area in their product line that I think is pretty exciting.

The VPC1 is a first gen product of a new line/model, so people should lighten up a little if it doesn't meet every request they have the first time out. Although I can see how it doesn't need as frequent updates/releases as keyboards with on-board sounds, I still hope that Kawai listens to feedback consensus and makes whatever refinements they can to the eventual VPC2.


Here is some current early feedback:

First off, I was curious as to why it uses RM3 instead of GF action? Was it a space issue (GF being too big for a slab keyboard?) or something else? I was thinking the goal was put Kawai's best possible DP action into a controller, and while I'm sure RM3 (with the new third sensor too) is great, I'm confused why it wasn't designed with the GF action instead?
Originally Posted By: JFP
@Dewster
GF may be their top keybed at the moment, so why the RM3 ? I don't know the exact reason, but I'm sure the GF has been considered at some stage, but fell through, because of weight, size, cost , or another factor. And the RM3 , especially with 3rd sensor and perhaps some other improvements, is certainly not a bad keybed ! Perhaps James can enlighten us on why its rm3 and not GF, or not, but still the new rm3 looks promising and will probably end up in the Mp10 successor and who knows other models to come.


I wouldn't think size would be a concern, as it seems like the VPC is really designed to stay at home. Weight falls under a similar category - I don't people were planning on gigging with the VPC1. Cost? Maybe... Any input would be appreciated James smile


While I understand and appreciate the design focus of pure simplicity, I can't help but think this focus is a little too narrow for the VPC1. I envisioned this sort of board as being more common place in a studio setting and existing as a master controller.

The simplistic design of the VPC1 sort of feels like it's designed to go into a living room or something, and in that regard I think it may be intruding on, and conflicting with, and overlapping the space shared by some of the Kawai console DPs (like the CE220). I know they are different products, but I get an akward feeling that some of the same audience is targeted with both of them.

I feel like there is some identity ambiguity to the VPC. Is the intent of it to just be high end action-in-a-box with a USB out and nothing else - designed strictly for digital acoustic piano playing, or is the intent to be a more versatile "Master controller" that utilizes Kawai's great action, but is more at home in a studio (and less concerned with living room aesthetics) and more capable of controlling other sounds if need be although aimed at controlling acoustic piano sounds?

It seems like one option for the VPC is to embrace and commit to being a midi controller more, and let go of being a pure AP focused controller. It could go the whole nine-yards instead of being just an "Virtual Piano Controller". I was expecting something a little more utilitarian looking, with more control surfaces on it.


Maybe Kawai could have two midi controllers:

1) One like the current VPC1, which is just the bare bones action-in-a-box, designed for people who strictly want the best possible action at the lowest possible price, whether they are only going to be using it as solely for acoustic piano playing via outboard VSTs, or they just already have other misc. midi controllers to cover the other stuff and now need just a great piano action controller...

or,

2) A second model that builds off the first one but is designed more as a studio master controller for and adds more midi controllers (mod wheel, pitch bend, faders, knobs etc) at a higher cost. Again, strictly a midi controller, but just a more "complete" one.

Or maybe just a compromise between the two, still very simplistic but with just a few more controls on it.

Again, I do understand what Kawai was going for with this first iteration. Something about it just feels a little akward. Maybe it's the the looks of the current VPC that are throwing me off a little. It's just very strange to look at a slab style DP and not see any buttons and controls on it. It looks too clean to fit in with the "dirty" world of outboard sounds, with laptops and cables and wires - like it should look less like a piece of furniture cabinetry and more like a piece of computer hardware (similar to the keyboard cases on boards Roland/Korg), with possibly some more accommodations for the computer setup/environment it's designed to be paired too. I'm not sure what those accommodations would be yet, but just something to think about/brainstorm.


Anyways, once again I'm very glad and excited that Kawai is entering this space and I hope they keep this line around and continue to improve it. I got my MP6 less than a year ago (and love it) so I'm good on keyboards for a while, but there's a strong chance that whenever it does comes time to upgrade, I'll be a looking at this VPC line.


I'm quoting a post below that shares some similar thoughts/feedback, just so people can read it again if they missed it...


Originally Posted By: In A Silent Way


- the action is certainly good, but it seems, not as good as it would have been if it were simply the best current available one. I'm ready to bet many people will have to decide if they catch the VPC1 train right now, or just delay their purchase to see if the coming VPC2 or MP12 will instead or not really be the complete deal at once. As it is, the VPC1 looks like the keyboard of the day before into the box of day to come, and the compromise is a bit of a turn off indeed.

- The missing mod wheels : it's a real question, why not include the mod wheels into a discrete trap onto the VPC1.2, so that you wouldn't have to face the technical detail if you don't need to, but wouldn't have either to buy or use another keyboard to simply access this necessary feature?

I'm certain the VPC1 might be a valuable good for 2 decades, but I won't be purchasing one now because of these (as for now) two major points 1 and 2, and it's a real pity to feel so, because if Kawai had say delayed by a half year the launch of the perfect piano controller to include the very demands of musicians, and, say had simply announced at winter NAMM 2013 such a launch within 6 months to go, the expectations would have retained many people from buying a current average other controller, and the VPC1 would really have started as a legend already, be it the price an extra 300-500$ to fill in the extra features. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not into marketing after all, but maybe I read the comments and I feel the thing as well as many people do?


So What would the VPC1 be to me in this situation? I'm afraid to answer, not a replacement for the action of my midified upright piano or an alternate/stage solution, nor a fully satisfying piano controller for the studio, but an ersatz still, ok a one ersatz significantly better than the ones of the other manufacturers, but not the promised land's gear yet.

...the best to date wooden action with the bare minimum controls on board, elegantly hidden behind a simple trap into the cabinet, so that in 30 years from now, people do still remember this product as the thing to go with of all time?

And all this doesn't really reduce my enthusiasm for Kawai products, simply it reduces my interest for the purchase of the current VPC1. For the price difference, the MP10 or coming MP12 (or whatever the name) or the Ca65 might just be as good to a new comer. Some brands prefer to scale their products without compromising, highest price the highest value, but somehow Kawai DP dpt ask you to choose between best action/best sound/best value, and you can't seem to be able to get the best of it all, whatever the price, making it all tocks in a strategy that is hard to read and somehow unsatisfying in a way. I can understand the fact is due to the calendar of the market and shows and launch schedules, but it tends to last for years now, and while it keeps the interest alive, it keeps disappointing the people who really need these instruments and actually, happen to really buy them occasionally, or not at the end of the day.

Maybe the idea stipulating that 'less is more' is fully operating on this concept. Compare to the MP10 or CA65, it's less because it's a wooden controller, but it's much more because it's the promise of a couple of decades of a real solid reliable piano touch. I'm pretty certain in 20 years from now people will remember the VPC1 as a excellent virtual piano keyboard, and the products in this aisle of the hall of fame are quite not so many, maybe the Roland V-Piano, the Korg SV series, the Yamaha Avant Grand series, and some others will be as well. In this perspective of 'less is more' though, not including any rocket science optional board or expansion card ability is certainly coherent, as the laptop market will anyway always have so much more to compete with expansion, and at constant falling prices and raising capacities.

this is the league in which it is playing. A unique product today you'd still probably be wanting to buy used in a third hand deposit in 20 years from now. But maybe the 'less' of the motto is a little too restrictive with the VPC1 : it's clearly oriented toward DAW music production or virtual instruments playing, and in the DAW music production of today, the mod wheel, the after touch and the pitch wheel remain essential expression controllers, as well as software samplers and synths articulations and modulations necessities. And it's a little different not to have on board logical MIDI features like splitting and multi-timbral routing ability, because you can certainly fix all this from within the DAW software itself, and not to have the hardware wheels and MIDI implementations for current basic modulations, because it limits the range of use strictly and for good. In this perspective, including in a panel, hidden behind a trap into the unit or as an after-market option, 2 or better 3 distinct controllers for the available expression options of software gears, as long as they remain assignable on the software side to any of the available 127 controllers value, and you can do anything you want. In the old days this was summed up into an XY matrix controller with pressure as well on hardware synths, there are certainly ways to design an elegant button for that, it might require periods of intense testing for durability, but it should not be a problem to a company like Kawai to include this as a minimal service to the people who in the end will really make use of such a virtual piano controller, or should it?

You could as well see it from a customer casuistic point of view : 1) I am a piano player, then why not buy a piano instead of a controller? ; 2) I am a music producer, I need a fully operating controller ; 3) I'm a hardware junky, I won't see the difference between the wooden keys and the plastic one anyway ; 4) I'm a home musician and I need a dp to play at night, but I most certainly then don't have the patience to catch with the knowledge graph to plug VSTIs into a mute keyboard ; and so on.

So in the end who's left with a need for this certainly excellent, but quite slightly coming short of a button VPC1?

Instead of that, Kawai could have strike in right away, or the next time, with one genuine controller of which everyone would say soon enough to advise about DAW and piano music production : don't bother pal, VPC1 all the way for you as for anyone else, it's become a standard, can't go wrong with this. (I hope this will be the case anyhow over time.)

Concerning the keyboard itself, the fact that it's not labelled GF, maybe there's a general issue concerning the superlative outdoing into the process of this labelling, all across the market, like it were with software versions at times, DeLuxe, silver, gold, platinum, titanium, polonium or what not, etc. It would be simple to clarify this for Kawai and stop calling versions and confusing the end user all the time, it would furthermore leave the other brands to their label names dropping : why Kawai not to switch to a cristal clear marketing about their product lines, and simply explain they use the best keyboard available for the line and price range of the product, in a way that involved design and technology would be easy for the end user to scale across the same keyboard label once for all? I bet the one manufacturer that is able the first to cut the superlative overbid upon this labelling, will see its sales rise every September.


iasw


Edited by chicolom (01/27/13 03:25 PM)
_________________________
Kawai MP6 | Ravenscroft 275 | True Keys American & Italian | Galaxy Vintage D, II, & Giant | Old Black Grand | Imperfect Fazioli

Top
#2022244 - 01/27/13 03:16 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: JFP]
kurtie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/10
Posts: 207
Originally Posted By: JFP

GF may be their top keybed at the moment, so why the RM3 ? I don't know the exact reason, but I'm sure the GF has been considered at some stage, but fell through, because of weight, size, cost , or another factor. And the RM3 , especially with 3rd sensor and perhaps some other improvements, is certainly not a bad keybed ! Perhaps James can enlighten us on why its rm3 and not GF, or not, but still the new rm3 looks promising and will probably end up in the Mp10 successor and who knows other models to come.


How much better is GF compared to RM3? I tried the RM3 in a MP10 and found it to be an amazing action... and the RM3 in the VPC is improved. Never tried a GF action. My question is: Is the GF action so much better that makes the RM3 II look bad?

Anyway, right now the VPC is probably the controller (not the DP) with the best keybed out there. That's an achievement.

Regards,
Kurt.-

Top
#2022256 - 01/27/13 03:39 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: sullivang]
In A Silent Way Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/13
Posts: 75
No I didn't watch it sorry but it's ok, nothing was meant personally, sorry I didn't quite get your point at first Master nomothetics wink

I was thinking about the move that would be really good for Kawai to develop : a VPCx that would integrate a physically modelled piano. That's a lot to develop though.

I also wonder what the VPC1 would be with a Gem RP-X hooked up to it, and the good over time such a virtual piano controller could bring to the piano expander market as well, which seem quite anaemic at the moment. I think CME in Italy still keeps the GEM RP-X production up right now, but maybe CME would be trading the license for this GEM product and Kawai could acquire it to build upon this past success and propose a complementary piano expander? Kawai already knows how to program modelled sympathetic resonances, and the Harmonic Imaging technology seems pretty hybrid all the way like the RP-X series, maybe they could split the MP10 or the ES7 in half for good and offer the other half to the expander market?

Top
#2022264 - 01/27/13 04:22 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Question about this VPC: it appears to be powered by USB, right? So if you are using the actual MIDI connector, is there power supplied through that, or do you need to connect a USB cable as well? Or does it have an optional power supply of some type.

I'll be using USB, so it won't matter in my case, but I'm curious.

Top
#2022272 - 01/27/13 04:43 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1837
Loc: Pennsylvania
Well, one concept that has taken a forward step in this product is probably the velocity curve setting.

If you are using one of the software products that has given their "seal of approval" for the built-in velocity curves you can be assured (theoretically) that the presets within each of those software packages has the sound the authors intended ... theoretically.

That should mean less need for fussing with the velocity curves within the software itself.... theoretically.


Of course, I do not really understand why that would be necessary. You would think that all the software packages would expect the exact same standard midi codes but that is a whole new topic.






Edited by dmd (01/27/13 04:47 PM)
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D

Top
#2022277 - 01/27/13 04:55 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: dmd]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3194
Originally Posted By: dmd
Of course, I do not really understand why that would be necessary. You would think that all the software packages would expect the exact same standard midi codes but that is a whole new topic.

They expect the same MIDI codes... i.e. out of the box, they all know what they want to do when they receive a note velocity of 50 (or whatever other number). The problem is that different keyboards require a different amount of finger force to generate that note velocity of 50. So for ideal response, there has to be some calibration between how hard you're striking the keys, and how you want the software to respond, and that will be different with different keyboards.

Top
#2022281 - 01/27/13 05:04 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 716
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
I still don't understand why the "approved" touch curve should be in controller and not in the software. It doesn't make any difference. You either leave your controller on "default" and choose dedicated touch curve in the VST or vice versa. And according to me it's easier for software companies to do that since they already have touch curve screen. Did Kawai pay to Synthogy for putting the "approved" label? Is this part of an agreement than no other company could pay for a dedicated touch curve? Really, I don't get the idea.
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

Top
#2022283 - 01/27/13 05:06 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: dmd]
spanishbuddha Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2337
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: dmd


That should mean less need for fussing with the velocity curves within the software itself.... theoretically.



Still need to have the capability to adjust for a players own touch. Per voice.

Top
#2022291 - 01/27/13 05:26 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: gvfarns]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9057
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Question about this VPC: it appears to be powered by USB, right? So if you are using the actual MIDI connector, is there power supplied through that, or do you need to connect a USB cable as well? Or does it have an optional power supply of some type.

I'll be using USB, so it won't matter in my case, but I'm curious.


A small power adaptor is included for MIDI-only use.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
Page 14 of 23 < 1 2 ... 12 13 14 15 16 ... 22 23 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
72 registered (AndrewJCW, Ben_NZ, beet31425, AliAlkhiro, 16 invisible), 925 Guests and 26 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75979 Members
42 Forums
157134 Topics
2307704 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Might play in hotel lounges/bars!!
by Pover
12 minutes 24 seconds ago
a video of Alexander Siloti's daughter playing the piano
by Michael Sayers
Yesterday at 08:26 PM
Kimball spinet neoprene lifter nuts
by dschwoyer
Yesterday at 08:22 PM
Looking for a re-built Steinway or Steinwas
by ColinD
Yesterday at 07:29 PM
First time purchasing an acoustic piano, need some help.
by Lockon52
Yesterday at 07:14 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission