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#2022728 - 01/28/13 09:52 AM Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10
nwpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/04/10
Posts: 122
Loc: Oregon
Hello everyone! I just had a technician do an evaluation of a 1997 Baldwin SF10. He said the only major concern he observed was a continuous crack along the bridge pins in the high upper treble region of the piano. If the cracks were separate he said this could be repaired with CA glue. However, the crack runs the entire length of several pins and has caused the pins to shift in their place. He said I would likely have to have the treble strings removed, the bridge glued and clamped, the holes redrilled and pins reset and glued in place.
The owners want $28,000 and the piano is on consignment with a dealer. Is this a major issue that should cause me to pass on this piano?
Thanks everyone,
Craig
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Craig
2010 Young Chang YP-208 (Church)
Rebuilt 1919 6'2" Conover 88 (Home)

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#2022752 - 01/28/13 10:31 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
BDB Online   content
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Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: nwpiano

The owners want $28,000 and the piano is on consignment with a dealer. Is this a major issue that should cause me to pass on this piano?
Thanks everyone,
Craig


Yes.
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#2022753 - 01/28/13 10:31 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
Steve Jackson Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 634
Loc: Toronto

I think that price is on the high side for a perfect model,
and much too high for one with a bad bridge. For that price,
the sellers should replace the bridge, and you shouldn't spend
that much money on a compromised piano.

Take care,

Steve
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#2022754 - 01/28/13 10:32 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: BDB]
Steve Jackson Online   content
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Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 634
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: BDB

Yes.


BDB says it better.
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#2022761 - 01/28/13 10:44 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
Eric Gloo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1186
Loc: Richfield Springs, New York
Yes...pass on this one. Even if the bridge were repaired, there's no guarantee the bridge won't split elsewhere. In fact, based on my experience with the SF10 of that same vintage, I can almost guarantee the bridge WILL split in other places...and if you inspect the bridges with a magnifying glass, you may find that is already the case.
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#2022762 - 01/28/13 10:44 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1471
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
YES! This is a serious issue.

I have seen several SF-10's and SD-10's with bridge cracking at the point in the scale where the back bridge pins of a unison are roughly parallel with the front pins of the next unison below in the scale.

Fortunately if your pinblock is good-and the tuning pins are tight-the plate and pinblock probably can be removed as a unit after removing strings and unbolting the plate. (A Steinway or Mason would require removing tuning pins from the block to remove the plate which would mean either replace the block to keep the more tunable 2/0 tuning pin-or install larger 3/0 or 4/0 tuning pins to have adequate tightness.) More money!

This will then let a rebuilder re-cap all the bridges with quarter-sawn, hard-rock maple. New strings can be installed on the existing tuning pins and the plate can even be refinished if you put cut off drinking straws on the tuning pins to mask them. If the work is done by a skilled rebuilder who resets the bridge pin pattern slightly the conflicting front and back bridge pin issue can be resolved.

You should also check to make sure the soundboard to case glue joint is properly fit and secure. I have seen several of these pianos with the board coming unglued from the rim. If you watch a video if the Baldwin soundboard installation you will see that only one person is placing the clamps on while gluing the board in with hot hide glue. Working time for that should be 5 minutes or less-one person clamping a board in takes at least 20 minutes.

These Baldwins have hard string termination elements in the capo bar section and this does lead to more rapid string fatigue with use and makes the treble tone a little on the brittle side when voiced up.

If I were to do this job I would suggest re-configuring the capo to use upside down brass agraffes in the capo bar. This will increase the warmth and beauty of the treble tone when combined with optimal shaping of the hammers to reduce their mass.
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#2022810 - 01/28/13 12:27 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Do the owners want $28,000? If so, the dealer will be asking for that much plus a 30% consignment fee. If the dealer is asking 28, the actual price is in the low 20s.
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#2022823 - 01/28/13 12:53 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
The price, although high, does not matter. It has a deal-breaking fault at any price.

You should be able to find a comparable piano without the fault. Then you can worry about the price. You can find them for less.
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#2023223 - 01/29/13 02:55 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3636
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
A very common issue with this Baldwin model from that era. CA glue is not the answer. Keep looking.
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#2023248 - 01/29/13 04:05 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3297
As others have said, this is a serious issue, and not uncommon with Baldwin.... $28,000 is an outrageous asking price. One of the dealers in my area is trying to sell a never sold 2008 SF-10 for $29,000. With that in mind, I'd maybe offer $10,000 for the one you're looking at. At that price, even with bridge replacement and restringing, it would likely be an acceptable deal. If that isn't in the cards, for whatever reason, keep looking!
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#2023411 - 01/29/13 12:14 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
No, $10,000 is not a good price for this piano, not even for someone who is capable of repairing it, let alone an end user.
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#2023455 - 01/29/13 01:24 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: BDB]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3297
Originally Posted By: BDB
No, $10,000 is not a good price for this piano, not even for someone who is capable of repairing it, let alone an end user.


I'm curious as to why you think that and what you think an appropriate price would be. It's a 15ish year old Baldwin SF-10, a high quality instrument, with no other known problems. Recapping the bridge and restringing is not an insurmountable problem. If there are no other issues, I don't see how my suggestion is an unreasonable retail price.
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#2023671 - 01/29/13 09:05 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
BoseEric Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 731
Loc: Fairfield County, CT
How do you reconfigure the capo bar to use upside down agraffes? I've never heard of this
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#2023696 - 01/29/13 10:00 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1471
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Hello Eric!

You fabricate from mild steel a mounting piece that bolts to the plate and capo where those stupid string destroyer and L-mode enhancing "terminater" thingys are bolted in and tap the new piece for agraffes. Of course all the X, Y, and Z co-ordinates must be properly placed.
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#2023698 - 01/29/13 10:03 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
RestorerPhil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 212
Loc: Georgia, USA
The agraffes are normally cut through so as to leave a base with three half-holes in which to seat the strings. These partial agraffes are upside down, threaded into the capo bar.

1. Before destringing, mark the location of the center string of the existing high treble unisons. (A go-no-go template could work, also.)
2. Disassemble and take out the harp/plate.

With plate flipped over...

3. Examine the existing termination bars and compare their height with the height of the altered agraffes.
4. Grind the capo and/or do counter bores for the agraffes. Drill the thread holes and tap the holes per the premarked alignments from step 1.
5. Fit the agraffes for proper alignment and shim/ream as required to correct alignment problems.

OR...
If dimensions don't work out, see post before this one.

Sounds straight forward, but it ain't.


Edited by RestorerPhil (01/29/13 10:06 PM)
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#2023776 - 01/30/13 01:30 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: beethoven986]
kpembrook Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1253
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: BDB
No, $10,000 is not a good price for this piano, not even for someone who is capable of repairing it, let alone an end user.


I'm curious as to why you think that and what you think an appropriate price would be. It's a 15ish year old Baldwin SF-10, a high quality instrument, with no other known problems. Recapping the bridge and restringing is not an insurmountable problem. If there are no other issues, I don't see how my suggestion is an unreasonable retail price.


Right.
A bridge isn't that big of a deal and with proper technical work, this is one of the top 7' pianos in the world.
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Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#2023780 - 01/30/13 01:36 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
But you can get them for about $10,000 plus what it would cost for a good repair. There is not a lot of room left for profit for someone who wants to flip it, and there is way too much risk for someone who wants a piano to use.
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#2023961 - 01/30/13 10:14 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: BDB]
nwpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/04/10
Posts: 122
Loc: Oregon
Ok, so lets say hypothetically that the owners were to come out of la la land with their $28000 asking price knowing that this instrument has problems. What would it cost to permanently fix the problem? And, if I am going to have the treble bridge replaced I would prefer to have them all replaced. In that case, what ball park figure should I attach to the job of replacing all the bridges in this instrument?
Just curious because the technician that inspected the piano said that otherwise it is in very good condition. I am assuming that as several have indicated if this problem were fixed correctly I would have a world class 7' instrument on my hands. The only reason I would pursue this is because I have a trade in allowance from my Young Chang YP208.
Craig
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Craig
2010 Young Chang YP-208 (Church)
Rebuilt 1919 6'2" Conover 88 (Home)

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#2023989 - 01/30/13 11:25 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: BDB]
kpembrook Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1253
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: BDB
, and there is way too much risk for someone who wants a piano to use.


Where's the risk? I know for 100% certainty I could repair it -- and I'm sure there are numerous others who could, as well.
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Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#2023998 - 01/30/13 11:37 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
I am sure Baldwin claimed with equal certainty that they could build it properly.
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#2024131 - 01/30/13 03:49 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6369
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: nwpiano
Ok, so lets say hypothetically that the owners were to come out of la la land with their $28000 asking price knowing that this instrument has problems. What would it cost to permanently fix the problem? And, if I am going to have the treble bridge replaced I would prefer to have them all replaced. In that case, what ball park figure should I attach to the job of replacing all the bridges in this instrument?
Just curious because the technician that inspected the piano said that otherwise it is in very good condition. I am assuming that as several have indicated if this problem were fixed correctly I would have a world class 7' instrument on my hands. The only reason I would pursue this is because I have a trade in allowance from my Young Chang YP208.
Craig


It is quite common to install new bridge caps on old pianos, but the remining must be worth.

(the bridge itself is kept, only the top is changed, the tone generallly appreciate that option
.
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#2024167 - 01/30/13 04:56 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5065
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: nwpiano
... What would it cost to permanently fix the problem? And, if I am going to have the treble bridge replaced I would prefer to have them all replaced. In that case, what ball park figure should I attach to the job of replacing all the bridges in this instrument?
Just curious because the technician that inspected the piano said that otherwise it is in very good condition. I am assuming that as several have indicated if this problem were fixed correctly I would have a world class 7' instrument on my hands. The only reason I would pursue this is because I have a trade in allowance from my Young Chang YP208.

The cost will vary depending on your local economy, the rates charged by your technician and the extent of the repairs.

This is not an overly complex repair. Baldwin grands do have a propensity for split bridges. When the SF-10 and SD-10 models were introduced they also started using vertically laminated bridges with no caps. Most of the time this worked but sometimes it didn’t. When it didn’t the bridges developed cracks in the areas where the bridge pins more-or-less paralleled the lamination lines. Usually these cracks are confined to the upper part of the top treble section.

The best repair is to route down the body of the bridge and install a traditional maple cap of either solid or horizontally laminated construction. This can be done without removing the plate but it is awkward work as access is limited.

If the budget allows it would be best to remove the plate, cap the bridge and restring the piano after installing a new pinblock.

I’d not worry about the string termination pieces overly much. Yes, they were hardened and, over time, they can contribute to a few broken strings here and there. (And, yes, it would have been better had they been cast of silicon bronze and had they used a somewhat shorter duplex length but that is a subject for another thread. They were a good idea, poorly executed.) Still, given the number of these pianos out there in daily use, string breakage has not proven to be all that common a problem unless the hammers are excessively heavy and hard. With hammers of medium density and with some of their excess weight taken out this shouldn’t be a problem. (You might have your technician also check this. Baldwin kind of lost control over this; they are one of the manufacturers I’ve seen chemically hardening Renner Blue hammers! So you may have to include replacing hammers along with the bridge work.)

You might also have your technician check to be sure that the sides of the rim are square to the bottom of the piano and that the rim is not warped and/or twisted. Toward the end Baldwin seems to have lost all control over the moisture content of their wood during construction.

And, while he’s at it, see if he can get some idea of how thick the soundboard panel is. That’s something else they kind of lost control over.

I tend to agree with the others who have suggested that the asking price of $28K is too high. Probably by at least half—give or take. Whatever market value you ascribe to the piano you’ll want to deduct a few thousand—say somewhere between $6K and $10K for repairs.

ddf
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#2024209 - 01/30/13 06:19 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6369
Loc: France
It also happen that pianos are kept in the worst environnment possible.

I had to work on a grand koncert Boesenforfer in a theater that spend all winters just on long heaters on an external wall with large windows.

The case warped really a lot , more than a harpsichord, was clearly visible even when looking from the front - up to the keybed where I took off about 1/8 inches of wood at some places to have the action flat (no glide bolts)

But those pianos use a light build with tone wood and maple everywhere...

I was the first tech after 14 years of "maintenance" by the local Boesen importer, that exprimed concerns about the location of the piano when unused...


Edited by Olek (01/30/13 07:09 PM)
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#2024212 - 01/30/13 06:25 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Del]
RestorerPhil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 212
Loc: Georgia, USA
About fifteen years ago I lost a customer over a similar situation.

New SF10 in a concert auditorium to be used by the local music and arts council/association. I am summoned to tune the new piano and I discover the splits in the upper treble. Did I mention NEW piano - less than a year old at the time. I sent a written notation, so that the owner group could use it as leverage for a warranty swap-out of the piano. The dealer got involved (obviously) and the head tech at Baldwin agreed with the dealer: "All it needs is some epoxy in the cracks. It's a fine instrument."

My simple reply was that it needed to either be swapped out (best solution on a NEW expensive concert instrument), or the bridge needed conventional capping to solve the issue.

Guess who lost out on that deal? I never was called by that customer again. (And I sure didn't get any service work from the dealer.) In fact, I don't even know what became of the situation in the long run. Of course, all I had told them was exactly what has been said in this thread. I was shocked to find out Baldwin at that time wouldn't do better at standing by their product. Duh.

Of course that could lead to a thirty-something-year-ago Steinway tale of a similar nature, but I will spare you all that one for now. yawn


Edited by RestorerPhil (01/30/13 06:26 PM)
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#2024242 - 01/30/13 07:34 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6369
Loc: France
The needling from behind is excellent to gain a richer spectra from hammers yet pre voiced enough and having too soft and uneffective basses (grand)

I did not thought of inserting a so long needle in a vertical usually I do that under the shoulders more radially than straight .

It seem to be done often on Yamaha verticals U series, while I nerver seen a Yamaha tech doing so only the shape of the felt show that some work have been done there. Preserve the outer core hence better rebound at low speed.
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#2024345 - 01/30/13 11:25 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: RestorerPhil]
Steven Bolstridge Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 193
Loc: Fitzgerald ,GA
Originally Posted By: RestorerPhil
New SF10 in a concert auditorium to be used by the local music and arts council/association. I am summoned to tune the new piano and I discover the splits in the upper treble. Did I mention NEW piano - less than a year old at the time. I sent a written notation, so that the owner group could use it as leverage for a warranty swap-out of the piano. The dealer got involved (obviously) and the head tech at Baldwin agreed with the dealer: "All it needs is some epoxy in the cracks. It's a fine instrument."

My simple reply was that it needed to either be swapped out (best solution on a NEW expensive concert instrument), or the bridge needed conventional capping to solve the issue.


Phil,
Sometime later (August, 1993) the arts council called me for what I assumed was a "second opinion". I came up with the same conclusion you did and also sent Baldwin a detailed description of the situation. About a month later, I received a letter of thanks from the council president informing me that Baldwin had agreed to deliver a brand new concert grand. I later went back and tuned it. Haven't heard from them since. The old building was drafty and the upper area was full of bats. I called several times over the years to have the thing tuned, but never went back. "Nobody ever plays it." was the usual answer.
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#2024468 - 01/31/13 06:43 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Steven Bolstridge]
RestorerPhil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 212
Loc: Georgia, USA
Wow, times passes fast. I hadn't actually looked to see if I still had record on that. So it was 20+ years! I had been tuning there for a few years up until that happened. It appears that no one has been tuning since, unless something has changed more recently.

What a waste of a fine instrument! Good for Baldwin. May what is left of the company name rest in peace (or in pieces, if you will). Thank goodness that there are many fine Baldwins to be restored!
grin yippie


Edited by RestorerPhil (01/31/13 06:51 AM)
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#2024536 - 01/31/13 09:50 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Del]
nwpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/04/10
Posts: 122
Loc: Oregon
Del, my technician also mentioned potential issues that could come up from Baldwin's use of the "floating soundboard" during that era. Is this an additional issue I should be concerned about.
Plus, in your opinion, with a proper rebuild does this instrument have the potential to be an excellent instrument?
Craig
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2010 Young Chang YP-208 (Church)
Rebuilt 1919 6'2" Conover 88 (Home)

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#2024594 - 01/31/13 11:30 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5065
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: nwpiano
Del, my technician also mentioned potential issues that could come up from Baldwin's use of the "floating soundboard" during that era. Is this an additional issue I should be concerned about.
Plus, in your opinion, with a proper rebuild does this instrument have the potential to be an excellent instrument?

Baldwin did not use a "floating" soundboard but I know what he means. In their smaller grands the ribs were terminated some short distance from the inner rim; the ribs were not set into notches cut in the inner rim. Memory fades but I thought both the SF-10 and SD-10 still used inset ribs back in the 1980s when I was there. Whatever—apparently this piano, at least, was built with non-inset ribs.

Acoustically this is actually a better system through most of the scale. The only problem is on the inside of the treble curve for a very short distance where the grain of the soundboard panel parallels the edge of the inner rim. In some pianos the soundboard panel developed a very slight crack right at the edge of inner rim. This crack was usually fairly short—four to eight inches—and didn’t seem to cause any particular problems other than visual and, since it was buried beneath the frame it was rarely discovered.

If I were replacing the soundboard in one of these pianos I’d cut notches in the inner rim for the top few ribs and inset them. I’d let the lower (bass end) ribs float per the original design. If I were just rebuilding the piano with the original soundboard panel I’d check it carefully and, if I found a problem, I’d repair it. And probably reinforce it with a short strip of fiberglas cloth bedded in epoxy. Other than this I wouldn’t worry about.

These pianos rebuild well. Their problems toward the end—at least as I have seen them—were more cosmetic than structural. I don’t know just when grand piano production moved from Conway to Trumann but it was after this move that things seemed to start falling apart. But from the instruments I’ve seen, at least, there has been nothing wrong that a decent rebuilder couldn’t easily fix. All pianos have their problems and quirks that rebuilders have learned to overcome. These are no exceptions; recapping bridges is straightforward work. So is, for that matter, replacing soundboard panels and cutting rib notches.

The only two design features that are significantly different from other pianos of similar type and size are the vertical hitchpins (which are good things) and the treble section termination pieces (which are a good idea poorly executed). When I rebuilt these pianos I kept both features. I like the vertical hitchpin concept but I didn’t like the original roll pins so I replaced them with solid stainless steel pins similar to those I designed into the two Walter grands.

I also kind of like the idea behind the termination pieces though Ed’s complaints about them being too hard are well founded. They can easily be modified, though, to shorten the duplex string segment and moderately increase the string deflection angle and this solves most of their problems. It’s an easy fix. With hammers like Ronsen/Weikert that are not too wide and are suitably tapered down on the sides to remove excess weight string breakage is simply not a problem.

It wasn’t much of a problem with the original hammers either as long as the factory workers could be restrained from pouring on the lacquer to make the pianos “sing.” (Back in the 1980s there were some in the company who were obsessing over making sure these pianos were always brighter than any Yamaha ever built. That the resulting sound was genuinely ugly was a fact lost on almost everyone.)

These can be great pianos. If after reading all of the various opinions presented here you still want to proceed my only real caution would be that you do so with your eyes wide open. Make sure the price you pay for the piano is appropriate to the work that you know needs to be done as well as the work that may need to be done.

ddf
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#2025447 - 02/01/13 04:48 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
BoseEric Offline
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Hi Ed! I had forgotton about those Baldwin ... capo bar thingies. Now it makes more sense, but I still had never seen or heard of it. Thanks for the info.
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#2025513 - 02/01/13 06:19 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
beethoven986 Offline
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Now that I think about it, I only recall the old Baldwins having issues in the capo sections....
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#2026088 - 02/02/13 10:57 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: beethoven986]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
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Regarding "floating" soundboard splits a more natural woodworking type repair for the problem area Del describes would be to route a 3/8" channel directly above the rib ends of the area of the split all the way to the rim, setting the depth of cut to aprox 1/2 the board thickness and inlaying spruce tenons with the grain direction 90 degrees from the board itself. A type of inserted flush rib so to speak, that will reinforce the weak exposed portion of the board.

Mixing fiberglass cloth and spruce in just one area of the soundboard surface will leave the repair able to come loose due to differential movement between the fiberglass, (which will not move with humidity changes) and the board, (which will).

It would also look like heck and would devalue the piano.
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#2026114 - 02/03/13 12:30 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Del Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Regarding "floating" soundboard splits a more natural woodworking type repair for the problem area Del describes would be to route a 3/8" channel directly above the rib ends of the area of the split all the way to the rim, setting the depth of cut to aprox 1/2 the board thickness and inlaying spruce tenons with the grain direction 90 degrees from the board itself. A type of inserted flush rib so to speak, that will reinforce the weak exposed portion of the board.

Mixing fiberglass cloth and spruce in just one area of the soundboard surface will leave the repair able to come loose due to differential movement between the fiberglass, (which will not move with humidity changes) and the board, (which will).

It would also look like heck and would devalue the piano.

We're talking about a strip fiberglass about 1" wide—it has to be wide enough to bridge the area between the inner rim and the ends of the ribs—and, maybe, 4" to 6" long. It bridges the space between the inner rim and the end of the one rib that terminates in that area. There is all of about 1/2" of fiberglass extending over the free area of the board. With the fibers at 45° to the grain line—I’d hope biaxial cloth would be used—and a decent epoxy this cloth will follow any expansion and contraction that might occur. It is an effective and simple repair and it permanently stops any further cracking.

It does not "look like heck." Done with any kind of finesse it is a completely invisible and permanent repair. I fail to see how it could possibly devalue the piano.

ddf


Edited by Del (02/03/13 02:54 AM)
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#2026371 - 02/03/13 02:34 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Del]
Roy123 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Del

In their smaller grands the ribs were terminated some short distance from the inner rim; the ribs were not set into notches cut in the inner rim.


I've wondered why ribs were inset into the rim for a long time. I just seemed like a simple and natural thing to stop them a bit short in order to create an area with higher compliance. One could almost think of this as the surround used with speakers. The surround does most of the flexing, and the cone is then designed to be stiff to that it might ideally move as a single unit. Care to comment further?

Originally Posted By: Del
The only two design features that are significantly different from other pianos of similar type and size are the vertical hitchpins... (which are good things) and the treble section termination pieces (which are a good idea poorly executed). When I rebuilt these pianos I kept both features. I like the vertical hitchpin concept but I didn’t like the original roll pins so I replaced them with solid stainless steel pins similar to those I designed into the two Walter grands.


I've looked for the type of vertical hitchpins that your Walter grands use and haven't found them in any of the usual piano-supply catalogs. Are they, in fact, available, or do you have them made?

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#2026414 - 02/03/13 04:53 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Roy123]
Del Offline
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Originally Posted By: Roy123
I've wondered why ribs were inset into the rim for a long time. I just seemed like a simple and natural thing to stop them a bit short in order to create an area with higher compliance. One could almost think of this as the surround used with speakers. The surround does most of the flexing, and the cone is then designed to be stiff to that it might ideally move as a single unit. Care to comment further?

It is similar, but not quite the same. As you say, you don’t really want a speaker cone to bend or flex at all. It should act like a piston. Piano soundboard assemblies don’t quite act like this; when they are forced into motion by the vibrating strings they do—and should—bend very slightly.

They seem to work best when they bend smoothly across the span of the assembly. Almost, but not quite, like a hinged-edge vibrating panel. The only analogy that comes to mind at the moment—and it’s not a particularly good one—is that of a trampoline panel that has been stiffened in the middle and becomes more flexible as you move away from the middle. It something of a compromise between a clamped-edge vibrating panel and a hinged-edge vibrating panel; it is not a true hinged-edge system but it is also some removed from a clamped edge system. It is a system that works most efficiently when the feathering is made less abrupt and is carried further in toward the middle of the board.

I haven’t done enough direct A-B testing of the two systems to be able to prove categorically that either is acoustically superior although intuitively it would seem that terminating the ribs at a slight distance from the rim—“floating” the ribs—should have a slight edge. (Assuming the ribs are designed correctly.)

Insetting the ribs to the inner rim seems to have been at least in part a protective measure used when animal hide was the only adhesive choice around. The argument is made that animal hide glue is a very strong adhesive and it would not have been necessary to reinforce it in this way. But manufacturers were not always careful in preparing and using the stuff. Temperatures were not always well-controlled and it was used long after it should have been discarded and replaced.

As well, the process of putting a compression-forced crown into a soundboard assembly creates a lot of stress on the glue joint all by itself. Insetting them protects the integrity of the glue joint.

This is a non-issue, of course, with laminated soundboard panels.



Quote:
I've looked for the type of vertical hitchpins that your Walter grands use and haven't found them in any of the usual piano-supply catalogs. Are they, in fact, available, or do you have them made?

Those pins are made by both Driv-Loc (Type G) and Groov-Pin (Type 67). There are probably others but those are the two I’ve used in the past. For my own work I used either Driv-Loc Type H or Groov-Pin Type 24. Both of these are solid pins. They look similar but do not have the annular groove around the top. The strings can be moved up or down on the pin by a millimeter or so; I prefer that they not be more than 5 mm above the plate surface in the bass nor more than 3 mm above the plate in the treble.

ddf
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#2026558 - 02/03/13 10:39 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
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I think the operative assumption about the value of a specific repair to a soundboard is-would a manufacturer do a warranty repair of the nature planned. If it is inconceivable that a manufacturer would execute a specific repair procedure- for a technician to do this for a client puts them in a less than professional light.

Also if the repair is of such unorthodoxy as to be incompatible with the overall engineering of the structure-when the piano goes on the market this will affect the value.

When pianos are of such age as to be largely devalued-different repair protocols can be appropriate.
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#2026965 - 02/04/13 02:56 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Del Offline
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Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I think the operative assumption about the value of a specific repair to a soundboard is-would a manufacturer do a warranty repair of the nature planned. If it is inconceivable that a manufacturer would execute a specific repair procedure- for a technician to do this for a client puts them in a less than professional light.

Also if the repair is of such unorthodoxy as to be incompatible with the overall engineering of the structure-when the piano goes on the market this will affect the value.

When pianos are of such age as to be largely devalued-different repair protocols can be appropriate.

Well, now the whole tone of your response is even more puzzling.

Baldwin’s typical response to this problem (on the rare occasions that it was discovered in a piano still under warrantee) was for the technician to shove some glue in there from the bottom—to keep it from getting worse—and forget about it. The specific crack under discussion can neither be seen nor accessed from the top unless the plate is removed from the piano. Indeed, it is fairly difficult to see even from the bottom of the piano unless you know specifically where to look and what to look for.

ddf
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#2026972 - 02/04/13 03:13 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
kpembrook Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I think the operative assumption about the value of a specific repair to a soundboard is-would a manufacturer do a warranty repair of the nature planned. If it is inconceivable that a manufacturer would execute a specific repair procedure- for a technician to do this for a client puts them in a less than professional light.

Also if the repair is of such unorthodoxy as to be incompatible with the overall engineering of the structure-when the piano goes on the market this will affect the value.

When pianos are of such age as to be largely devalued-different repair protocols can be appropriate.


Hmm, I certainly wouldn't limit myself to the options the factory has. Given the wide range of approaches and failures coming out of factories, to define factory approaches as a standard -- much less the be all and end all of valid technical responses -- is more than a bit limiting in my opinion.
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#2027234 - 02/05/13 01:29 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
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Part of our responsibilities as technicians is as a fiduciary. We protect the value of our clients pianos. We must be knowledgable of how value is determined in the piano market to do this.

A piano soundboard of a 5 to 40 year old artist quality grand repaired with fiberglass cloth epoxied to the surface over a crack would be a material fault that any buyer would want to be aware of. Competing sellers would use information like that to create uncertainty in the mind of any prospective purchaser of a piano like that. Anything that creates doubt reduces marketability. Those are the hard facts of business.

An SF-10 piano aspires to fit in the market as artist quality. I think any particular repair must be planned to take that into account. Others can have their opinion-I have stated mine. Good luck to you all!
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#2027472 - 02/05/13 01:57 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Del Offline
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Registered: 09/04/03
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Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Part of our responsibilities as technicians is as a fiduciary. We protect the value of our clients pianos. We must be knowledgable of how value is determined in the piano market to do this.

A piano soundboard of a 5 to 40 year old artist quality grand repaired with fiberglass cloth epoxied to the surface over a crack would be a material fault that any buyer would want to be aware of. Competing sellers would use information like that to create uncertainty in the mind of any prospective purchaser of a piano like that. Anything that creates doubt reduces marketability. Those are the hard facts of business.

An SF-10 piano aspires to fit in the market as artist quality. I think any particular repair must be planned to take that into account. Others can have their opinion-I have stated mine. Good luck to you all!

I agree with you about the fiduciary part. And I agree that the SF-10 aspires to be an artist-quality piano. But I disagree with most everything else.

Given what I know about the specific problem being discussed—one that is probably not even an issue in SF-10 or SD-10 models—the repair I described is the better repair. You can denigrate the use of relatively modern materials (or me, for that) all you want but that doesn’t change reality and it ignores the fact that epoxy and fiberglass reinforcements have been successfully used with wood assemblies and structures more than 70 years.

The material and method I described permanently solves all of the issues related to the specific problem that occasionally shows up for a specific reason in a specific area of the soundboard in specific pianos: namely the Model M, Model R and Model L; i.e., those models using “floating” ribs that terminate at specific spots on the inside curve of the rim. (Unless it’s confirmed by the technician actually looking at the piano I don’t believe this was ever an issue with the SF-10.)

I believe the best repair is the one designed to solve all aspects of a given problem; in this case one caused by a localized design defect. It should be unobtrusive, effective and permanent. It should use the best and most appropriate materials available. And it should not add to the original problem. It should not be arbitrarily limited to traditional materials especially if there is reason to believe that using traditional materials results in a repair that will not perform as well. The process I have suggested meets these criteria and I’m not at all convinced that the repair you have suggested will perform as well. The method you’ve suggested does use wood but wood, while “traditional,” is not always the best choice.

ddf
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#2031531 - 02/11/13 11:11 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
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Del; whether wood is or is not the "best" choice to repair a soundboard defect -that you have perfectly described-wood IS what the soundboard is engineered to be made from. Departing from that creates a "known, un-known" future. Using cross-ply, wood, to restrain splitting is part of the original engineering of the soundboard. Just like a rib does. If you read anything into my words implying that I seek to "denigrate you", please accept my apologies. Don't we know each-other well enough to stay calm? Sincerely, Ed
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#2031579 - 02/12/13 12:32 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
kpembrook Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
whether wood is or is not the "best" choice to repair a soundboard defect -that you have perfectly described-wood IS what the soundboard is engineered to be made from.


To me, this is not compelling logic. Wood is indeed what the soundboard was made from (not because it is the ideal material but because it has been the best available material). And wood is what failed. It may be that the design or execution failed to account for the weakness of wood, but wood is what failed, is it not?

If, then, wood is what failed, is it not legitimate to consider alternative materials?

Quote:

Departing from that creates a "known, un-known" future. Using cross-ply, wood, to restrain splitting is part of the original engineering of the soundboard.


I'm not buying this at all. Those of us who know wood (certainly including any experienced piano technician) know that any given piece of wood is an "unknown". Nobody on the planet can predict the response of any given piece of wood. Not even if they have access to MRI and x-ray equipment. So, using wood in a repair --or new construction, for that matter-- always contains an element of the unknown, just because it's wood.

And, lamination of fiberglas/epoxy type materials to wood is very much of a "known" process. Individual piano technicians may not know, but the boat industry has been doing it for years -- both in brand new construction and in repairs of classic wooden boats.

I just don't see that the case is made not to use the repair Del described -- even as a first option.
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#2031598 - 02/12/13 01:29 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
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Mr. Adkins,
Thank you for your prompt response. It shows your passion regarding piano service.

The wood "failed" because of an engineering defect. The engineering of successful, durable, modern soundboards is a well established procedure at least 150 years old.
The fact that fiberglass over wood boats have been made for some 60 years does not make it a known piano application. That makes it a known, un-known. The uncertainty is obvious. It is a piano-not a boat. Respectfully yours, Ed
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#2031631 - 02/12/13 04:12 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
Olek Offline
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x (sorry, no interest)


Edited by Olek (02/12/13 05:40 AM)
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#2031686 - 02/12/13 07:26 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
kpembrook Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Mr. Adkins,
Thank you for your prompt response. It shows your passion regarding piano service.

The wood "failed" because of an engineering defect. The engineering of successful, durable, modern soundboards is a well established procedure at least 150 years old.


I dunno . . . Soundboard failure is not a novel event. I see soundboards all the time that have failed . . .

And, I believe I have a fair grasp of those techniques since I have been replacing 'em since the '70s.

Quote:

The fact that fiberglass over wood boats have been made for some 60 years does not make it a known piano application. That makes it a known, un-known. The uncertainty is obvious. It is a piano-not a boat. Respectfully yours, Ed


Again, most of the soundboard failures I see are because soundboards are made of wood . . .


But the idea you present is similar to some of what is being said about non-wood action components -- based on the assumption that the laws of chemistry and physics are not uniformly applicable across the spectrum of substances and events but that they are somehow suspended at the border of "piano work". The scientific approach makes the assumption that phenomena are repeatable and applicable in different parts of the world and in different applications.

Simply put, wood and fiberglas construction is wood and fiberglas construction. Period. And, they are known and understood. The properties of that kind of construction can be expected to manifest the same performance characteristics regardless of its application.

Certainly, being exposed in other applications to stresses greater than what would be normal for a soundboard would be encouraging to the idea that application in soundboard construction is a valid consideration.
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#2031849 - 02/12/13 01:18 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Del Offline
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Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5065
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
The wood "failed" because of an engineering defect. The engineering of successful, durable, modern soundboards is a well established procedure at least 150 years old.

And the repair I outlined is designed to both repair the damage resulting from that engineering defect and protect the soundboard from further damage.


Quote:
The fact that fiberglass over wood boats have been made for some 60 years does not make it a known piano application. That makes it a known, un-known. The uncertainty is obvious. It is a piano-not a boat.

Uncertainty disappears with knowledge, understanding and experience.

ddf
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#2032174 - 02/12/13 10:53 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
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Mr Akin;
Again thank you for your interest and I must say I am flattered by you using the reference to the "constancy" rule of Physics. I have used that in many of my lectures to Technicians. Perhaps you attended one?

The particular failure described in this thread is rooted in a wood engineering fault.

I use W,N,&G composite shanks on most of my action rebuilds so I am not new material adverse.

Del and Mr Akins;
You both return to the "boat" theory of soundboard construction. You both make new soundboards for pianos. Have you ever made one for a retail client that had fiberglass coated to the top surface?

I can confidently predict that a soundboard made of solid spruce with ribs on the bottom, (with the usual dimensions), and fiberglass on the top would not function well. It would be too heavy. I know of no fiberglass cloth available with fine enough fiber size and weave to attempt such a construction. I don't think that carbon fiber is light enough either.

Using this technique on a portion of the top for a spot repair would carry the uncertainty of whether the reaction of the board to humidity changes might lead to separation between the glass and board. It would also look out of place and this is no small matter when evaluating a pianos marketability.

My repair technique is consistent with the engineering of piano soundboards thus it carries no risk beyond the workmanship.

I remember the beaches of the area of Puget Sound where I grew up as having been littered at times with plywood boats that were glassed on the outer surface only. The moisture caused the glass to separate from the wood in only a few years.


Neither of you has made a case for glassing over a cracked soundboard. The application of new methods to pianos is something I am always on the lookout for. But I am also very conservative on how I test these. Thats the responsible way. Thanks for listening and good luck!



Edited by Ed McMorrow, RPT (02/12/13 11:24 PM)
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#2032247 - 02/13/13 02:36 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Del Offline
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Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5065
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
You both return to the "boat" theory of soundboard construction. You both make new soundboards for pianos. Have you ever made one for a retail client that had fiberglass coated to the top surface?

I can confidently predict that a soundboard made of solid spruce with ribs on the bottom, (with the usual dimensions), and fiberglass on the top would not function well. It would be too heavy. I know of no fiberglass cloth available with fine enough fiber size and weave to attempt such a construction. I don't think that carbon fiber is light enough either.

Using this technique on a portion of the top for a spot repair would carry the uncertainty of whether the reaction of the board to humidity changes might lead to separation between the glass and board. It would also look out of place and this is no small matter when evaluating a pianos marketability.

My repair technique is consistent with the engineering of piano soundboards thus it carries no risk beyond the workmanship.

I remember the beaches of the area of Puget Sound where I grew up as having been littered at times with plywood boats that were glassed on the outer surface only. The moisture caused the glass to separate from the wood in only a few years.

Neither of you has made a case for glassing over a cracked soundboard. The application of new methods to pianos is something I am always on the lookout for. But I am also very conservative on how I test these. Thats the responsible way. Thanks for listening and good luck!

And you have not made a convincing argument for rejecting this repair.

You are stretching the nature of the repair I described beyond all recognition. The key words in the above are “spot repair.” This is a spot repair to a specific area and type of damage. Typically this is a shear crack immediately adjacent to inside treble curve of the inner rim—in some cases the crack may actually overlap the inner rim slightly—and is between 100 and 200 mm long. The strip of fiberglass cloth used for the repair would be approximately 25 mm wide and extend beyond the ends of the crack by about 10 to 15 mm. Much of this strip will overlap the inner rim. The rest will extend into the working area of the soundboard panel by (maybe) 30 to 40 mm at the ends. If that far. I fail to see how a strip of e-glass this size is going to weigh down the soundboard panel no matter how thick it is. Or stiffen it, for that.

You keep bringing up appearance as an issue; have you ever actually worked with this stuff? I have—although not for this specific application—and the repair, done with reasonable skill, will be virtually invisible. Sanded and finished along with the rest of the soundboard panel even your critical eye would have a very difficult time picking it out. If fact, I’m reasonably confident that if you were not told it was there and where to look you would not see it at all. Can you say the same for the repair you’ve recommended? No, I thought not.

I too have seen wood boats with fiberglass sheathing that has failed. Without exception the fiberglass was bonded to the wood hull using polyester resins, not epoxy. Polyester resins work well to bind fiberglass fibers together in all fiberglass hulls but it is not a good adhesive. So, yes, it fails when used this way. Contrast these with the many hulls I’ve looked at—we were thinking of having it done to our old wooden boat (we ended up selling the boat instead)—that were properly prepared and then sheathed with fiberglass cloth embedded in suitable epoxy resins.

I realize this forum is primarily about pianos but for those interested a good overview of the proper technique for fiberglassing a wooden boat hull can be found here: http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/use...st+System+Epoxy

When done properly this technique improves the performance of the boat, extends its useful life while reducing its periodic maintenance requirements. All materials have to be applied in a manner appropriate to the intended use.

ddf


Edited by Del (02/13/13 12:18 PM)
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#2032276 - 02/13/13 05:16 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Del]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1866
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Del,

You wrote earlier,

Originally Posted By: Del
The specific crack under discussion can neither be seen nor accessed from the top unless the plate is removed from the piano. Indeed, it is fairly difficult to see even from the bottom of the piano unless you know specifically where to look and what to look for.


and then, later,

Originally Posted By: Del
Typically this is a shear crack immediately adjacent to inside treble curve of the inner rim—in some cases the crack may actually overlap the inner rim slightly—and is between 100 and 200 mm long. The strip of fiberglass cloth used for the repair would be approximately 25 mm wide and extend beyond the ends of the crack by about 10 to 15 mm. Much of this strip will overlap the inner rim. The rest will extend into the working area of the soundboard panel by (maybe) 30 to 40 mm at the ends.


Do I understand correctly that your proposed repair is done to the top surface of the soundboard? (How else would it overlap the inner rim?) Do I therefore also understand correctly, by the part I quoted first, that when the plate is back in the piano, the repair is invisible anyway?
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#2032440 - 02/13/13 11:59 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Mark R.]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5065
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Do I understand correctly that your proposed repair is done to the top surface of the soundboard? (How else would it overlap the inner rim?) Do I therefore also understand correctly...that when the plate is back in the piano, the repair is invisible anyway?

That is correct. It is completely covered by the string frame. And that explains why this specific crack can be present for years—decades—and not be noticed. That, and the fact that there is rarely any audible clue drawing our attention to it.

Still, if we're going to repair something it should be done in a neat, workmanlike manner and be as unobtrusive as is practical. By being essentially invisible the repair I suggested fulfills that requirement nicely.

ddf
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#2032798 - 02/13/13 11:58 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1471
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Del;
I am convinced that most piano soundboards are made of wood. I am also convinced that the owner of such a piano wants any repairs due to engineering defects-to be engineered to work with the wood structure in a way that solves the defective design. I am also convinced that said repair should not carry any added uncertainty by introducing unknown factors into evaluating the future utility of the piano.

You are not convinced that repairing an engineering defect, that is due to the lack of an area of a soundboard having adequate cross grain restraint, with a proven piano woodworking technique is better than treating the repair area like a nautical vehicle.

So there we stand. It would be interesting to see what piano dealers think of the comparison.
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#2032801 - 02/14/13 12:09 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5065
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Del;
I am convinced that most piano soundboards are made of wood. I am also convinced that the owner of such a piano wants any repairs due to engineering defects-to be engineered to work with the wood structure in a way that solves the defective design. I am also convinced that said repair should not carry any added uncertainty by introducing unknown factors into evaluating the future utility of the piano.

You are not convinced that repairing an engineering defect, that is due to the lack of an area of a soundboard having adequate cross grain restraint, with a proven piano woodworking technique is better than treating the repair area like a nautical vehicle.

So there we stand. It would be interesting to see what piano dealers think of the comparison.

I doubt many, if any, dealers have ever encountered the problem since most of these cracks go undetected until—and for some other reason entirely—the string frame is removed from the piano. And then I suspect that most of them will want it repaired in the fastest and cheapest method possible. And that won’t be either of those we’ve been discussing.

ddf
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#2032973 - 02/14/13 11:14 AM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Del]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1471
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Del;
If the boat people promised "better" performance after glassing your old wood boat hull-they must have also planned to put in a more powerful motor-glassing will increase the weight.
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#2033023 - 02/14/13 12:29 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5065
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Del;
If the boat people promised "better" performance after glassing your old wood boat hull-they must have also planned to put in a more powerful motor-glassing will increase the weight.

You need to bring yourself up to date, Ed. Times—and materials—have changed since the bad old days. We would actually have been able to cut back on power requirements. For a quick look at how this should be done, go to:
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/use...st+System+Epoxy

ddf
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ddfandrich@gmail.com
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Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#2033323 - 02/14/13 09:09 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Del]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1471
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Thanks Del;
I'm so old fashioned that I still live by the old adage about a boat being a hole in the water into which you pour money! So I don't own one!
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#2033337 - 02/14/13 09:25 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5065
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Thanks Del;
I'm so old fashioned that I still live by the old adage about a boat being a hole in the water into which you pour money! So I don't own one!

That, ultimately, was the conclusion we came to also so we sold it. It was a lot of fun while we had it, though.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#2033424 - 02/14/13 10:34 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: Del]
kpembrook Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1253
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Del
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Thanks Del;
I'm so old fashioned that I still live by the old adage about a boat being a hole in the water into which you pour money! So I don't own one!

That, ultimately, was the conclusion we came to also so we sold it. It was a lot of fun while we had it, though.

ddf


There used to be an America's Cup winner in our marina here in town. I understand that when someone asked the owner what it was like to own an Americ's Cup winner, he replied, " Imagine standing in a cold shower tearing up hundred dollar bills".

I enjoy sailing -- on other people's boats. smirk
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#2033883 - 02/15/13 06:08 PM Re: Continuous Bridge Crack Baldwin SF10 [Re: nwpiano]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1471
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
The epoxy glassing of a boat hull only reduces the weight by stopping the water from soaking into the wood. So it is heavier in dry-dock but lighter on the water. Thats what counts though.

Just because glassing wood is a proven boatbuilding protocol does not mean it is proven in pianos. Introducing new materials into a piano is fraught with difficulties. Piano owners expect a long service life to a well maintained piano. 50 to 100 years is easily attainable. the new composite action parts are nearly indestructible compared to wood parts. Of course the cushioning materials will still wear and distort.

I don't know of any technician who has repaired a soundboard split with glass/epoxy overlay.

My typical client is someone with an engineering/science/technology professional-they would not find a soundboard repair with epoxy/glass to be proper.
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