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#2019730 - 01/23/13 04:07 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 719
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
Everyone can do the electronics and the embedded PC. And even though PC with Windows is not RTOS, I can still assemble one where it will boot and play for years without a problem wink Only the thought it uses Windows will bother people laugh Believe it or not ATM-machines in Bulgaria run Windows XP laugh

The real problem is key action. Nobody does it right except Kawai, Roland and Yamaha, that's why they do whatever they want to do. Nord obviously got it right with sample uploading but they don't have good actions.

So, let's kickstart the action-thing, not the computer stuff smile


Edited by CyberGene (01/23/13 04:09 PM)
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#2019755 - 01/23/13 04:44 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: CyberGene]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Originally Posted By: CyberGene
The real problem is key action. Nobody does it right except Kawai, Roland and Yamaha, that's why they do whatever they want to do.
I have sold now my CA51 and as a provisorium I have got an old Kurzweil with a Fatar keybed from a friend. This is a weighted one is not very good but still gives a very enjoyable experience to play. You can buy such a MIDI controller complete for around 400 EUR - this particular old one is even with aftertouch! (Not polyphonic). Production costs (with case) must be around or below 50% of it, perhaps some 200.

While not the best, I cannot see why a keybed with a better design should cost a multiple of that to manufacture - except perahps real wooden keys, I cannot judge, how much wood cost. But good actions exist without wooden keys...
Now Fatar belongs to Kurzweil...

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#2019778 - 01/23/13 05:10 PM Ecosystem pricing model? [Re: davinwv]
abitconfused Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/03/12
Posts: 14
Have you ever bought an ebook from Amazon? It might cost you almost as much as a 'real' book which is a bit strange when you consider the difference in production costs, but it works on that nice Kindle Ebook reader so you can carry it and several hundred similar books around with you easily to read almost anywhere anytime

But who owns it? Not you... you can't (legally) lend or give it to a friend, you can't resell it and you can't leave it to your children when you die - it certainly isn't your asset or your property: you just have a lifetime lease on being able to access it (or as long as Amazon stay in business or don't cancel your access to their site because of a 'contract violation' on your part)

When your Kindle's non-replaceble battery dies, or you drop and break that fragile E-ink screen what do you buy to replace it? Well, as you have spent several hundred dollars on Ebooks which are in Kindle format the choice is pretty much limited to another Kindle, and so you continue buying more books in that format to use on the new Kindle and therefore become ever more invested in that system. You don't even have the possibility to sell the Kindle with the books you bought loaded as the first system reset will remove all the books and the new user will not be able to recover them (legally) unless they download them again. Therefore if you want to get a Nook instead then you basically need to throw away all those hundreds/thousands of dollars you spent on Amazon books and start again - realistic?

Got an iPhone or an Android phone? Bought any apps for it? When it comes time to replace these with a new phone does the level of liking for the 'other' system or disliking of 'your' system outweigh the cost of junking the apps you bought as they won't work on the other system. If it doesn't then the result is that you carry on buying new phones and applications from the same ecosystem and the lock-in continues - and maybe even buy 'download' or 'app store' gift vouchers as presents to lock friends or other members of your family further into their phone ecosystems

In the world of cameras Sony have just introduced the concept of 'apps' into their latest models whereby the cameras are sold with basic functionality which you can extend by 'buying' new firmware functions. These new functions will transfer to new Sony camera bodies but not to any other brand, and again are not transferable or re-sellable to another user so you can't recover your investment if you want to change brands/systems

Is this new Kawai concept also going to follow the 'Ecosystem' pricing model whereby you buy those piano tones and that funky rhodes sound/sounds you want piecemeal and then find that your only option is to either lose that investment or buy another Kawai piano when the time comes to replace the piano?

Time will tell...

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#2019781 - 01/23/13 05:16 PM Re: Ecosystem pricing model? [Re: davinwv]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2223
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Speaking of Sony - I emailed them a few years ago, asking them to make digital pianos. I expect the first products to start appearing any day now. laugh

Greg.

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#2019784 - 01/23/13 05:18 PM Re: Ecosystem pricing model? [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 719
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
OK, then I'll email Samsung for some healthy competition laugh
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#2019799 - 01/23/13 05:33 PM Re: Ecosystem pricing model? [Re: abitconfused]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
Originally Posted By: abitconfused
...Is this new Kawai concept also going to follow the 'Ecosystem' pricing model whereby you buy those piano tones and that funky rhodes sound/sounds you want piecemeal and then find that your only option is to either lose that investment or buy another Kawai piano when the time comes to replace the piano?

Time will tell...

A MIDI controller is not a new concept. We don't know yet how the affiliation with the 4 products is knitted together but the board is still a MIDI controller that plays a lot of things outside of the packaged deal. Aliens might land and eat us all too. I would worry about that before not being able to use the VPC more than a couple years before it joins the ranks of the VCR.

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#2019802 - 01/23/13 05:40 PM Re: Ecosystem pricing model? [Re: o0Ampy0o]
abitconfused Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/03/12
Posts: 14
A bookshelf isn't a new concept either, but although a Kindle similarly stores books, it is something different where the storage and the product are integrated and inseperable

It might be that this new Kawai product is something more than just a MIDI controller

Incidentally, I'm not worrying about anything, and may even buy one of these new keyboards myself (as I did with the Sony camera mentioned in my first post - and I also own, and like very much, a Kindle), but I if I do buy one then I want to do so with my eyes open: I guess many people who bought Kindles/iPhones/Android phones still haven't clocked how the pricing model really works on those items


Edited by abitconfused (01/23/13 05:54 PM)

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#2019815 - 01/23/13 05:56 PM Re: Ecosystem pricing model? [Re: abitconfused]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: abitconfused
I guess many people who bought Kindles/iPhones/Android phones still haven't clocked how the pricing model really works on those items


Or we have stuck with one brand like Apple and have been able to transfer our purchases with each generation of product we buy. I have 5 Apple devices in the house and since they are all under the same account I also don't have to buy multiple copies of Apps. I pay for one App and all the devices can use it.


Edited by Hideki Matsui (01/23/13 05:58 PM)
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#2019820 - 01/23/13 06:05 PM Re: Ecosystem pricing model? [Re: davinwv]
abitconfused Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/03/12
Posts: 14
But you bought those 5 Apple devices and you will continue to replace them with more Apple devices in the future because of your investment in the Apple Ecosystem Apps you have bought... QED

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#2019822 - 01/23/13 06:08 PM Re: Ecosystem pricing model? [Re: o0Ampy0o]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: o0Ampy0o
I would worry about that before not being able to use the VPC more than a couple years before it joins the ranks of the VCR.

I have a ~20 year old VCR that still works pretty good. If it had to be hooked up to a 286 to adjust some vital feature it would have hit the scrap bin / landfill long ago.

A really nice controller could easily last that long, and Kawai / MS / Apple / USB might not even exist at that point. So thanks, but no thanks, not until we get a computing platform and interfaces that have a bit more staying power. Until then I'll do my best to avoid buying anything that doesn't have all parameters adjustable via the front panel.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#2019823 - 01/23/13 06:08 PM Re: Ecosystem pricing model? [Re: abitconfused]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3328
Aren't the books you buy on a Kindle equally downloadable into the Kindle app on an iPad?

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#2019826 - 01/23/13 06:16 PM Re: Ecosystem pricing model? [Re: davinwv]
abitconfused Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/03/12
Posts: 14
Yes, but the App is still the property of, and therefore under the control of Amazon

We could also start talking about Calibre and all the other cross platform format conversion apps, but my post wasn't about Kindles, iPhones, Android Phones etc... it was about illustrating a relatively new marketing model which consumer electronics and content providers are adopting to establish 'locked-in' relationships with their customers

I have no idea if this new Kawai product follows that model and I am not 'dissing' the product in any way as it seems very exciting... I'm just wondering if it is indicative of Kawai being the first manufacturer to try to bring this particular type of marketing model to the home musical instrument market


Edited by abitconfused (01/23/13 06:17 PM)

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#2019908 - 01/23/13 08:28 PM Re: Ecosystem pricing model? [Re: abitconfused]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: abitconfused
But you bought those 5 Apple devices and you will continue to replace them with more Apple devices in the future because of your investment in the Apple Ecosystem Apps you have bought... QED


Yes. I'm trapped. I don't deny that.
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#2019915 - 01/23/13 08:52 PM Re: Ecosystem pricing model? [Re: abitconfused]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1786
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted By: abitconfused
Have you ever bought an ebook from Amazon? It might cost you almost as much as a 'real' book which is a bit strange when you consider the difference in production costs, but it works on that nice Kindle Ebook reader so you can carry it and several hundred similar books around with you easily to read almost anywhere anytime

But who owns it? Not you... you can't (legally) lend or give it to a friend, you can't resell it and you can't leave it to your children when you die - it certainly isn't your asset or your property: you just have a lifetime lease on being able to access it (or as long as Amazon stay in business or don't cancel your access to their site because of a 'contract violation' on your part)

When your Kindle's non-replaceble battery dies, or you drop and break that fragile E-ink screen what do you buy to replace it? Well, as you have spent several hundred dollars on Ebooks which are in Kindle format the choice is pretty much limited to another Kindle, and so you continue buying more books in that format to use on the new Kindle and therefore become ever more invested in that system. You don't even have the possibility to sell the Kindle with the books you bought loaded as the first system reset will remove all the books and the new user will not be able to recover them (legally) unless they download them again. Therefore if you want to get a Nook instead then you basically need to throw away all those hundreds/thousands of dollars you spent on Amazon books and start again - realistic?

Got an iPhone or an Android phone? Bought any apps for it? When it comes time to replace these with a new phone does the level of liking for the 'other' system or disliking of 'your' system outweigh the cost of junking the apps you bought as they won't work on the other system. If it doesn't then the result is that you carry on buying new phones and applications from the same ecosystem and the lock-in continues - and maybe even buy 'download' or 'app store' gift vouchers as presents to lock friends or other members of your family further into their phone ecosystems

In the world of cameras Sony have just introduced the concept of 'apps' into their latest models whereby the cameras are sold with basic functionality which you can extend by 'buying' new firmware functions. These new functions will transfer to new Sony camera bodies but not to any other brand, and again are not transferable or re-sellable to another user so you can't recover your investment if you want to change brands/systems

Is this new Kawai concept also going to follow the 'Ecosystem' pricing model whereby you buy those piano tones and that funky rhodes sound/sounds you want piecemeal and then find that your only option is to either lose that investment or buy another Kawai piano when the time comes to replace the piano?

Time will tell...


I got one of the first Kindles to come out and have a substantial Amazon e-library, but I almost NEVER use a *Kindle* device to access my library. Kindle apps are available for free for iPads, other tablets, Macs, PCs, and smartphones.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#2020004 - 01/23/13 11:45 PM Re: Ecosystem pricing model? [Re: davinwv]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
Originally Posted By: abitconfused
A bookshelf isn't a new concept either, but although a Kindle similarly stores books, it is something different where the storage and the product are integrated and inseperable

It might be that this new Kawai product is something more than just a MIDI controller


"It might be that this new Kawai product is something more than just a MIDI controller"

Where is any evidence that this is a reality? Its full description has not been released as of this time. Why worry about something you are only imagining might be?

I have not seen anything in the VPC suggesting we are going to be chained to a Cloud account that streams the piano samples to the VPC.

What is so different about the VPC that you actually see and are not imagining?

Many digital keyboards can use software sounds. This one is not exclusively locked into any one of them. If it catches on it might even spark more software options. There is a degree of security (peace of mind) in the software as it comes from a variety of sources rather than one which could fail and disappear.

Really the only thing significantly different is focusing on premium action in a MIDI controller.

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#2020125 - 01/24/13 06:20 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: CyberGene]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 719
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
Guys, I don't want to be mean, but it seems I am the only one who qualifies for a keyring laugh

Originally Posted By: CyberGene
Here's my answer for the 4th icon and VPC1 keyring competition:

Alicia's Keys wink


Check out the latest update and the 4th icon.
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#2020126 - 01/24/13 06:20 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: CyberGene]
Nigeth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 108
Originally Posted By: CyberGene
Here's my answer for the 4th icon and VPC1 keyring competition:

Alicia's Keys wink


Congratulations, you win (no seriously they updated the picture with the fourth element and it's indeed Alicia's keys).

Synthogy Ivory II, Pianoteq 4, Galaxy D, Alicia's keys

one of those things is not like the others...

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#2020127 - 01/24/13 06:20 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Nigeth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 108
Damn only seconds too slow wink

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#2020128 - 01/24/13 06:21 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 719
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
:P
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#2020129 - 01/24/13 06:25 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2408
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
I don't see much love around here for Alicia's Keys.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#2020131 - 01/24/13 06:29 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Nigeth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 108
My first thought was 'Alicia's Keys, really?'

After a little bit of elaboration though it definitely makes sense.

For one getting Native Instruments to be on board with the VPC seemed like a smart thing to do.

Secondly though, the previous three are all about the best replication of an acoustic either by means of sampling or modeling. You'd want at least one set though thats great in a band context and has 'the punch' to compete against the other instruments live on stage.

While it might not be the best sample set out there it does seem to be the only one that's optimized for stage performance. At least that's what the reviews seem to agree on.

This pushes the VPC from being solely for home or studio duties or 'enthusiasts' to a viable stage presence 'out of the box'.


Edited by Nigeth (01/24/13 06:33 AM)

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#2020132 - 01/24/13 06:30 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 719
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
Well, yes and not. My answer was entirely statistical. I've seen icons are following the natural order of most preferred software pianos: Ivory, Pianoteq, Vintage D... and I think Alicia's keys sits next to them.
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#2020140 - 01/24/13 06:40 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Has NAMM already started ?! Just to put all speculation out of its misery. Is there an official Kawai press event scheduled , if so...when ?

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#2020142 - 01/24/13 06:40 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: CyberGene]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU

I thought it must have been an informed guess, so outlandish it sounded to me at first.

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#2020164 - 01/24/13 07:31 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3837
Loc: North Carolina
I'm a bit confused about what exactly this product is.

On this page it says:

"We found the Kawaivpc.com website where Kawai announce a true piano that will be able to control virtual pianos on your computer."

"... Kawai has partenered with the virtual instruments editor Pianoteq, Synthogy and Galaxy Instruments to announce a true and full piano able to control virtual instrument through a USB connection."

Well, lots of us already have pianos/keyboards that control Pianoteq, Synthogy, and Galaxy pianos through a USB (or MIDI) connection.

So, what exactly does this new Kawai instrument do differently?

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#2020182 - 01/24/13 08:15 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 719
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
By the way, there's one more reason why Alicia's Keys is among the other three pianos. These are probably the only four software pianos which support half-pedalling, string resonance, damper resonance, repedalling (not sure about Alicia's keys though) and other mandatory pianistic features.


Edited by CyberGene (01/24/13 08:15 AM)
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#2020195 - 01/24/13 08:41 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3837
Loc: North Carolina
I think AK is in there to provide a pop-music piano, a very different sound from the other, classically-oriented pianos in the list.

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#2020202 - 01/24/13 08:51 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Nigeth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 108
I agree.

I've read a lot of reviews about sample sets and virtual instruments while deciding on which package to buy.

Most reviews of AK mention that the pianos don't sound very great at first when played in a studio context but most mention that the piano sound really shines on stage.

It's also the only true pop piano of the bunch.

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#2020203 - 01/24/13 08:54 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
TubularBills Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/28/12
Posts: 9
Loc: France
Does anyone know when this is going to hit the market ? Anytime soon in Europe ?

Thanks

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#2020214 - 01/24/13 09:18 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: TubularBills]
Kos Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/29/11
Posts: 77
Originally Posted By: TubularBills
Does anyone know when this is going to hit the market ? Anytime soon in Europe ?

I guess we'll know in a couple of days.
_________________________
"There is nothing to piano playing besides producing the appropriate velocities on the appropriate keys at the appropriate time" (c) qvfarns

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