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#2023870 - 01/30/13 07:04 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1712
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
Max.
When you get the chance, translate the last few days of posting. There is a valuable discussion there that you should benefit from.
Do something for me. Forget your homespun philosophy and hold your lever just like the photograph that Dan has thoughtfully posted for you. You won't damage your piano.

rxd,I really try to do it primarily for themselves. However, it is very difficult to understand and take anything into service when I don't see little point of this topic. Yesterday I worked (a photo of Dan) 0 hour to 13, but I feeling that a pin to springs in the opposite direction and did not give me to fix the right tone. Perhaps it is because it is very old vertical "Ukraine" 1958 year......


Max. I hope I'm understanding you right. The pin springing in the opposite direction is what you should feel. Simply pull the string sharp by the same amount that it springs back. That way the pin spring back onto the pitch and will be better set. You may have to play the key a bit harder but not brutal to make sure the friction points of the string are dealt with. You will eventually begin to feel all this in the pin, You will develop a whole range of different types of manipulation of the pin. Confine yourself to the middle notes right now. I think they're easier.

When the pitch is about right, use this spring you are experiencing in a slight very small rocking motion above and below the pitch a couple of times until the spring gets less and the pitch is right. With practice you will make the spring go away entirely The pitch will stay there better. Make sure your thumb is on the side of the handle and certainly not on the front like the person in the blue shirt video.

The way you were doing it before, you were not feeling this spring and so were not in control. The spring was there and so was the effect of Flagpoling but the combined effect was that you were feeling neither. It may feel strange, even awkward for a while to do it like Dans photo. Please persevere. Feeling what you feel is progress With more thumb pressure at the side of the lever, the springiness will be less. With the right balance between the thumb pressure and the fingers pulling and the elbow high enough you will sometimes be able to turn the pin in very small increments without any spring. Practice practice practice.

"feel the spring"

" the spring is our friend" it tells us where we are.

Read what Johnkie says about this in his last two posts.

Anything to add or clarify, John? Im not sure I was very clear, ( too many words) perhaps you could put it another way or point out where I might be misconstrued.


Edited by rxd (01/30/13 07:21 AM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2023888 - 01/30/13 07:46 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7573
Loc: France
As say RXD you need that spring to move the string, and to set if firmly.

In fine the spring is not "gone" but it is counter acted by the spring of the wire.

To be sure of the correct equilibrium of tension between the tuning pin and the spring after having done those back and forth motions many tuners use a light Push and Pull test:

Just when you finish to set the pin and string, at this moment the wire is yet free enough, on many pianos, so you can change its pitch by a LIGHT BENDING (lightly) UP and DOWN.

You listen to the tone change :

The tone must raise more easily than it lowers (about 1/3 2/3)

That mean that the pin is not only set , but it actively participate to the locking of the wire.

If you choose for a neutral setting, you may be able to rock the pin with similar tone change up and down, that is how I was instructed.

That way the pin is neutral, that mean it is yet stressed by the wire but get back to its position at rest, so you don't feel the spring so much.
You can feel in in the bending motion.

If you move back and forth the hammer and the final pitch is too low or too high, the relation between the pin and the wire is incorrect.

I do not speak of bending a pin like that (it needed around 40-50 Kg pressure) but using the last springiness really perceptible in the pin

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#2023893 - 01/30/13 08:08 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7573
Loc: France
The pin is springing in a very light helical shape when you raise the pitch.

Then you may at last unstress that deformation or make it active the other direction, which is more difficult.

That helical motion allow the tuning pin to jump in the block by very small increments.

Tuning a piano is like manipulating a very long spring by an extremity . the spring is made in motion by the impacts of the hammer, and the torque you have allowed it is then released.


To experiment what level of springiness a tuning pin have, just install it in a vice and test with your tuning hammer.

IF you install it horizontal and put a 70-80Kg weight on the handle of the lever, you will see how much motion may happen.

There are 2 moves as said RXD, the twist (helical) because the tuning pin is inserted in the walls of the pinblock
And the bending (we control bending by putting the hammer in a position it is not favoured )

But the most twist and bends are allowed, the more springy your pin will be and this may be at our advantage , for instance on a piano with the strings that move too easily, we use more bending and twisting on the upper part of the tuning pin, and play hard enough so the wave coming from the string "unlock" the bottom of the pin . Then you hear a "crack" and you feel the motion, and you are sure the bottom of the pin have changed orientation.

It is there of the utmost importance that the pressure is not damaging the hole at the place the string will push the tuning pin in the end.

SO starters learn to manipulate the hammer first perfectly in the rotation plane of the pin.

All the job done without feeling the bottom moving is useless and will move as soon you leave the pin.
Even first grade tuners experiment very light motion of a wire sometime even with a very firm pin setting.

Playing often and strong enough the note allow to be sure of that.




Edited by Olek (01/30/13 08:10 AM)
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2023933 - 01/30/13 09:34 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7573
Loc: France
At 2:30 +- you see how the pin is worked (on a very new piano)



On older blocks you need to support more the lever an the pin is harder to feel, you feel more the force of the string than the one of the pin.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2023950 - 01/30/13 09:57 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1712
Loc: London, England
Update. We had piano competition Sunday. 4-5 Returning student now doin advanced degrees, under academic teachers. One or two of them broke strings. I finally repaired them this morning. Pleasantly gratified that the string breaking pianos were last tuned during my revisit with the T-hammer. Both pianos that had been played with string breaking vulgarity stayed in tune amazingly. they had done well for 2-3 weeks. Score the string breakers came in. Surprised myself, to be honest. I used only rotational movements, even though the handle on my T- hammer wrings slightly (some rotational lost motion) and used only very light flagpoling in order to locate the point of balance from that aspect. Finishing with a very slight clockwise and flagpole towards me if I felt I could "afford" it and I sensed drag in the rather steep capo and elsewhere. Mostly on the pins nearest me and near the breaks. The ones with good follow I could finish with a slight counter lock wise and forward motion. There were times that I wanted to simply turn the pin as I can with my lever but couldn't. Could be a lack of fully developed technique on
my part.

These are reasonably good quality pinblocks on pianos 15 yrs old one x top two restring. the other pianos were better pin blocks, same age. Same results. Probably less savage use.

The tuning operation went slightly faster too. I completed each unison as I progressed the way I normally do.

Just one persons experience, but there it is for anyone interested.


Edited by rxd (01/30/13 10:27 AM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2023959 - 01/30/13 10:11 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7573
Loc: France
Good idea, I will try , now that I use a "full twisting" technique I will possibly have a similar surprise.

What is difficult with a T hammer is to wave the pin to obtain the very little motion of the pin foot if the note really untuned.

Did you have to move the bottom of the pin on most notes when tuning with the T hammer ? on regularely tuned pianos, often only the equilibrium between speking lenght and front segment of pin is to be reinstalled. then the bottom of the pin have to be moved only if you leave a "neutral" setting.

Possibly overpull is larger with the T hammer, hence string fatigue, what do you think ?


When I tune , those days, I "tune with the playing hand" a lot, and I "listen to the pin" with the lever wink


Edited by Olek (01/30/13 10:18 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2024023 - 01/30/13 12:26 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
Max.
When you get the chance, translate the last few days of posting. There is a valuable discussion there that you should benefit from.
Do something for me. Forget your homespun philosophy and hold your lever just like the photograph that Dan has thoughtfully posted for you. You won't damage your piano.

rxd,I really try to do it primarily for themselves. However, it is very difficult to understand and take anything into service when I don't see little point of this topic. Yesterday I worked (a photo of Dan) 0 hour to 13, but I feeling that a pin to springs in the opposite direction and did not give me to fix the right tone. Perhaps it is because it is very old vertical "Ukraine" 1958 year......


Max. I hope I'm understanding you right. The pin springing in the opposite direction is what you should feel. Simply pull the string sharp by the same amount that it springs back. That way the pin spring back onto the pitch and will be better set. You may have to play the key a bit harder but not brutal to make sure the friction points of the string are dealt with. You will eventually begin to feel all this in the pin, You will develop a whole range of different types of manipulation of the pin. Confine yourself to the middle notes right now. I think they're easier.


I see.rxd,all true. If I understand you correctly, I'm need to increase the tension of the string, when I'm tuning the old pinblock of a piano. I'm doing "slightly restring" toward overestimation tone. Then the pressure of the string pin is set in his seat and gives the correct string of tone. All three strings in the chorus should sound without beats, so I spend some time watching the "behavior of the pins" that it's got in the last position. If it has a small frictions a pin with the wood hole.
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2024027 - 01/30/13 12:32 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
I used only rotational movements, even though the handle on my T- hammer wrings slightly (some rotational lost motion) and used only very light flagpoling in order to locate the point of balance from that aspect. Finishing with a very slight clockwise and flagpole towards me if I felt I could "afford" it and I sensed drag in the rather steep capo and elsewhere. Mostly on the pins nearest me and near the breaks.

What was the need to tuning this piano with T-hammer? Very tight pins?
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2024089 - 01/30/13 02:41 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1712
Loc: London, England
If what you wrote is from your experience and not merely repeating what you have read, then I think you are getting it. Some terms you use are not quite exact but, with the language difficulty, it sounds good enough to me. More practice unisons. If you want variety, try an octave getting 6 strings as beatless as you can.

I used the T- hammer for a few days so that everything I wrote about it here was from direct experience and I needed to refresh my memory. It also provides some variety for me. To many posters on here repeat what they think they have been told or what they imagine might happen with no practical experience.
I can only write from my own direct experience.

So a short, partial answer to why I tuned those pianos with a T- hammer would be, for you.

Now forget it for the time being because you have gone back to the lever. Stay with that and concentrate on it.

Practice.


Edited by rxd (01/30/13 02:47 PM)
Edit Reason: Rogue spellchecker
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2024098 - 01/30/13 03:00 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Johnkie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 718
Loc: England
As I understand things T hammers were more suited to tuning early pianos. Modern instruments have planks that are very much firmer generally. Although tuning can in theory still be completed using them, the reality is that it is much more difficult to obtain ease of wrestpin movement, and the wrist strength needed can be considerable.

I imagine RxD, like me, is so used to merely having to touch up instruments that he tunes on such a regular basis, that wrestpin movement is rarely needed. In such cases the use 5of the humble T hammer can easily achieve the tiny adjustments needed to bring any minor tuning issues back into line.

Once again this underlines the need to be able to read the wrestpin. Good quality tuners rarely need anything other than tiny wrestpin adjustments, more akin to settling it back into its own comfortable postion, as opposed to adding unequalised stress through inflicting actual movement within the plank.

I don't regard many posts here are helping Max in the slightest. They are far too advanced and complicated even for the more experienced members here who have a command of English.

He should start again from the basics .... concentrating on being able to demonstrate clean unisons and octaves, slowly progressing to temperament and intervals ... but only after grasping the concept and being able to demonstrate clean unisons and octaves. His attitude often comes across as confrontational rather than indicating a genuine wish to improve.

He has a long road to travel, and unless he can begin to demonstrate progress within a reasonable time frame, instead of arguing and confronting those prepared to offer their good advice, whilst at the same time, continuing to promote himself as a "Teacher" ... then perhaps we should waste no further time and save our breath for those more worthy.
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#2024129 - 01/30/13 03:45 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7573
Loc: France
YEs John I know, but that was the opportunity to discuss with more interesting people that pushed me to state my own present view and experience on the subject.

We have no real clear demonstration of the forces acting when tuning, never find any concrete in books or discussions. Videos often show nothing or only a partial job done, or fancy things out of primal interest.

plus, we need imaginative words to describe what we are doing

I agree T lever is OK for soft enough pinblocks, agreable to avoid any bending, but not adapted to real tuning with lot of pin motion, today. (I have used mine for a few pianos some years ago)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2024570 - 01/31/13 10:44 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: pppat
Hi Max (and all others, too),

you are getting a lot of good suggestions from other posters here. I would like to contribute by showing the difference between a well-tuned unison and a unison that is 2 cents off. I recorded my piano tonight, and here are the sound files:

First, I tuned the left and right strings of D4 to the center string with an electronic tuning device. After that, the unison sounded like this:
L/R strings tuned to center string, Reyburn Cybertuner

There is a little bit of sizzling partials there, so I checked the single strings. They sounded like this:
D4, strings one-by-one

The left string was indeed a bit "busy" in itself. I tweaked the unison aurally, and this is what I came up with:
L/R to center string, aurally

Then I detuned the right string +1 cent and the left string -1 cent, giving a unison that is 2 cents wide in its frequency range:
Detuning the unison: L -1 cent, R +1 cent

Can you hear how that unison "moans"? It sounds like there's an effect on it, like a chorus or flanger pedal used for guitars.

I tuned them back, and I post that file, too. You can hear how I'm working with the tuning hammer and with the hand hitting the keys. When the strings fall into place, the sound is longer, clearer and more powerful than if the strings do not couple with each other:
re-tuning the unison

This is the kind of sound you should be looking for in your unison tuning. Start listening for that long, clear, and calm sound, and you will soon start to find it in your own tunings!

Hope this helps,
Patrick





Kudos to you Patrick for making the effort to post your recordings.

Is it just me, or did all those single unisons have false beats? The real demonstration in those recordings is how the cybertuner could not mask the FB but you did a wonderful job by ear.


smile I heard the same false beats, Mark, the strings were all kind of alive and kicking, one-by-one. The hammers on the piano are rather worn, too. I brushed them slightly before I did the recording. It got better, but I will have to replace them with a new hammer set soon.

And thank you for your endorsement of the aurally-tuned unisons vs. the CyberTuners dead-on lock - I certainly liked them better, too. Especially when it comes down to false beats, the ear can practice "flower arranging" and put together a quite nice bouqet in a way that I have a hard time seeing an ETD do.

Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Thank you for taking the time to do this Patrick. Very informative.

Roger Kirk published a 1959 study in the Journal of the Acoustical Society, where hid did essentially what you've done with your recordings, and then asked a number of trained and untrained listeners which 'flavor' unison they preferred. I had a hard time believing the conclusion he came to - that people could prefer a unison that could be as much as 1 cent or 2 cents out.

The wide unison you produced with -1 cent in the left string and +1 cent in the right string is 2 cents out/wide. And it gives an indication of one of the types of unisons Kirk's subjects were listening to. One which they said they liked! Hard to believe, but there it is.

Chris S.

Abstract of his paper:
"Unison strings of a concert grand piano were tuned to five “unison” conditions. The conditions were “zero‐beat” tuning and the upper string of three string unison groups tuned sharp and the lower string tuned flat by ½, 1, 2, and 3 cents relative to the center string. Magnetic tape recordings were made of the piano tuned under these conditions. These recordings in the form of a paired comparison preference test were presented to musically trained and untrained subjects. The most preferred tuning conditions for three string unison groups as recorded and reproduced from magnetic tape, are 1 and 2 cents maximum deviation among strings. Musically trained subjects prefer less deviation in tuning among unison strings than do untrained subjects. Close agreement was found between the subject′s tuning preferences and the way artist tuners actually tune piano unison strings."


Thank's Chris, this is certainly interesting! I know of quite a few people preferring twangy unisons, too. I think they get accustomed to "the warmth" of slightly out-of-tune unisons.

Even though one might suspect that I'd be heavily biased since taking up tuning, I always liked very pure unisons on the piano, even as a child. Aah, the sound of those big, silvery raindrops. Many movie soundtracks feature that sound, and there is nothing quite like it.


Edited by pppat (01/31/13 10:45 AM)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#2024625 - 01/31/13 12:20 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Some terms you use are not quite exact but, with the language difficulty, it sounds good enough to me.
I can only write from my own direct experience.

So a short, partial answer to why I tuned those pianos with a T- hammer would be, for you.
you have gone back to the lever. Stay with that and concentrate on it.

Practice.

Dear rxd, I carefully study all that you write about that topic. I'm sorry that you had to hard to translate my gibberish. Now I'm a lot of practice with the lever. Octaves, fifths, fourths, and major third.
I am honored that you have worked with a T-bar for me.
Now , few days I concentrated on the lever, I hope I can do it.
Regards Your student extra-mural Max
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2024948 - 01/31/13 11:32 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Johnkie]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Johnkie


I don't regard many posts here are helping Max in the slightest. They are far too advanced and complicated even for the more experienced members here who have a command of English.
He has a long road to travel, and unless he can begin to demonstrate progress within a reasonable time frame, instead of arguing and confronting those prepared to offer their good advice, whilst at the same time, continuing to promote himself as a "Teacher" ... then perhaps we should waste no further time and save our breath for those more worthy.

Johnkie,you are mistaken. Max is not "a teacher" but a "perpetual student". Theme is created not for Max. It is for anyone interested in understanding their own temperament in practice and a test understand of others. Max realizes not all, but he tries. That it is helped him messages of members our forum
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2024964 - 02/01/13 12:05 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2378
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
I hate to say this, but if you tuned unisons with strings 2 cents apart for some of my customers, they would be inclined to ask you to return when your feeling better. I've been called to tune/touch up pianos where they were better than that to begin with.

There are many tooners who try and get a perfectly clear unison and are convinced they have it and its really out by a few cents...why would any professional want to take two steps backwards and try and emulate that which another person comes up short on?
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2025060 - 02/01/13 04:37 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7573
Loc: France
The fact is that the tone of strings is too much instable to the ETD to really appreciate clearly the levels I noticed , which are 0.1 to 0.4 cts (far from 1ct I admit, and it was in mediums on a low level iH scale)

But this will probably depend of the kind of scale and the condition the strings a piano have.

As none of us take some time (once the piano is tuned) to pluck the strings and listen attentively to them one by one trying to hear which one is perfctly coupling with another and which one is there to regulate the dynamic of the unison, those effect most of us use without knowing (as soon they understood how a nice sounding unison speaks)

We dont ascertain how things really go on in the pianos, in the end.

To obtain that very clear and , more important, manageable attack, the pitch of the strings have some slight difference.
If not your tuning can stand for one hour playing maximum.

MAny pianists hate any moaning in unisons, it must be crisp, clear and with amanageable aftertone (meaning the attack allow to enflate the aftertone in a clear sustained tone without any perceptible beat)

Too much concentration of justness immediately use most of the energy for the attack then the aftersound is short and , strangely the dynamic even the one of the attack, is reduced)

I suppose that good tuners shape the tone, stop thinking beats or ETD display, and then the problem is to have enough distance with the tone produced, to hear it as if it is a few meters apart. (what I call having quiet ears)

concentrating on beats in the partials helps to be attentive, but give no controal on the final dynamic quality of the tone.


Edited by Olek (02/01/13 04:51 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2025209 - 02/01/13 10:42 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek

But this will probably depend of the kind of scale and the condition the strings a piano have.

Once I tuning a unison F4. There was some extra beat in the strings. The average string is the usual that is 0.7 mm. On each side of the string were looking more big diametr. I made specifically remeasure is 0.73 mm. Unison I built, but the upper harmonics added additional overtones. Note F4 and E4 respectively had a rich sound. The pianist, who tested the setting wrinkled his brow when the chords come across these sounds. Three hundredths not misrepresented the location is the problem
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#2025264 - 02/01/13 11:57 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1712
Loc: London, England
Max.
It is likely that you will come across unusual repairs in some of the pianos you see. Often the correct size wire may not be a available. It is possible to tune differing sizes of wire into a presentable unison but what is most likely to happen is that the larger diameter wire is hit first by the hammer makIng the unison out of phase.

What your " musician" is hearing is the poor tone quality that results from out of phase strings. The best repair is to replace the string with the correct size but this may not be an option for you. You can massage a slight backward curve in the string by pressing along it with a piece of wood or other soft material (brass) so that the hammer hits all three strings as close to the same moment as possible . Doing this rarely solves the problem completely and there are other things you can do but it is best for us not to advise doing anything else in case somebody wants to repair it properly at a later date. Adjusting it further involves loss of felt and you could easily make the problem worse only to lose more felt when the correct string is fitted. ( you could also massage a reverse(outward) curve in the thinner strings with a stringing hook. Yo u can make one from a steel crochet hook bent to take a handle. Better than some of the clumsy affairs currently being sold.

Do not rely on the opinion of 'musicians' at this point. The one you mentioned could only make judgemental faces and could not help you. What use Is that? With all due respect to them, Some 'musicians' might just guide you astray right now.

Well spotted on the different diameters.

You will sometimes find false strings in that area. You can make even those sound still in a unison if you are really good.

Do your best.

R


Edited by rxd (02/02/13 12:22 AM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2025651 - 02/01/13 11:25 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
( you could also massage a reverse(outward) curve in the thinner strings with a stringing hook. Yo u can make one from a steel crochet hook bent to form a handle.

Dear rxd, thanks for your response about the regime works in choirs of strings different diameters. But I do not understand the mechanism of "the crochet hook". How to do this? If you are not hard, maybe there is a photos?
Regards,Max
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2025668 - 02/02/13 12:38 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1712
Loc: London, England
Max.
Google 'crochet hook'. The Wikipedia entry in English has
some pictures.

Any sewing shop or hobby shop has them in different sizes.
Most are plastic some are metal. Choose the strongest and a medium size that looks like it would work.

Be careful not to kink or bend the string, just massage a curve into it.

It is non invasive and reversible.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2025784 - 02/02/13 08:51 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7573
Loc: France
Excellent tip RXD, very good spring hooks ?

I use a thick wire (21 ?) installed on a long dowel, make a fulcrum on the capo or on the felt in front of the pins, it is easy to use but care must be taken not to install a kink.

I like massaging, but older wire does not move easily
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2025832 - 02/02/13 10:43 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1712
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Olek
Excellent tip RXD, very good spring hooks ?

I use a thick wire (21 ?) installed on a long dowel, make a fulcrum on the capo or on the felt in front of the pins, it is easy to use but care must be taken not to install a kink.

I like massaging, but older wire does not move easily



Upright damper springs, perhaps. For grand butterfly springs I would want to grind off the tip and file a groove in it for pushing the spring out. The American tool with the tiny grooved disc at the end and the last couple of cm. bent at a slight angle is excellent for grand repetition springs. It was originally privately made and marketed but now most supply houses carry it.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2026124 - 02/03/13 12:55 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Dear rxd,I use a thick crochet hook, but in order to remove rust from the strings. I release a pin half a turn, and treated with a place in the capo (bar plate). I have not understand out how to reduce the diameter when we are just massage a curve into it hook on the back side of string?

I'm intensively and seriously working to make a temperament. I use the lever and a mute. While the results are negative unfortunately


Edited by Maximillyan (02/03/13 01:03 AM)
_________________________
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http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2026150 - 02/03/13 02:25 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1712
Loc: London, England
Yes. Use the hook on the back side of the string. A gentle massage from the damper upwards while the string is at tension.
This does not reduce the diameter of the string but simply raises the level of the string so that the hammer hits all three strings at the same time. The diameter remains the same.

By lowering the tension of the string, you have reduced the stability of that string a lot. It will take some time and tunings to regain that stability so don't expect too much from that note right now. The presence of rust and replacement string in that area of the piano would tell me to be careful. The best cure, as I said, is to replace the wire.

You will need strings and parts to be a successful tuner. With today's communications, surely you could contact the technicians at a music school and ask them where they get their parts. Don't start arguing with them or trying to teach them as you do with us or they will simply ignore you and they won't want to help you. They have to get parts somehow. Are there Internet sites you can use? Google your words for " piano wire". See what you come up with.

I got the idea of the crochet hook from a student while unsuccessfully looking for a halfway decent stringing hook at the supply houses. She worked as a Saturday girl at a hobby store and saw potential piano tools everywhere. One of the handiest combination heavy duty wirecutters and parallel pliers i ever had came from a hobby store.

I realise that it is difficult to translate the books you were sent because each word has to be entered into the computer unless you have a special scanner.

There are articles already on the Internet that are translator ready. They will be of good use to you.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2026156 - 02/03/13 02:47 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Use the hook on the back side of the string. A gentle massage from the damper upwards while the string is at tension.
This does not reduce the diameter of the string but simply raises the level of the string so that the hammer hits all three strings at the same time. The diameter remains the same.

By lowering the tension of the string, you have reduced the stability of that string a lot. It will take some time and tunings to regain that stability so don't expect too much from that note right now. The presence of rust and replacement string in that area of the piano would tell me to be careful. The best cure, as I said, is to replace the wire.

I see,rxd
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2026195 - 02/03/13 06:21 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7573
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Dear rxd,I use a thick crochet hook, but in order to remove rust from the strings. I release a pin half a turn, and treated with a place in the capo (bar plate). I have not understand out how to reduce the diameter when we are just massage a curve into it hook on the back side of string?

I'm intensively and seriously working to make a temperament. I use the lever and a mute. While the results are negative unfortunately


Can you make a video when you tune an unison ? for the temperament you have to be sure your string will not move first



Edited by Olek (02/03/13 06:22 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2026374 - 02/03/13 02:49 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Mark R.]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Pat,

Many thanks for your recordings. I found it very useful to hear the de-tuned unison (-1, 0, +1).

(Frankly, I can't believe that anyone would prefer such a unison over a beatless one, as Kirk's paper would have us believe. The mind boggles!)


Your welcome, Mark! Sorry, I missed this post earlier.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#2026563 - 02/03/13 10:52 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Dear rxd,I use a thick crochet hook, but in order to remove rust from the strings. I release a pin half a turn, and treated with a place in the capo (bar plate). I have not understand out how to reduce the diameter when we are just massage a curve into it hook on the back side of string?

I'm intensively and seriously working to make a temperament. I use the lever and a mute. While the results are negative unfortunately


Can you make a video when you tune an unison ?

I can't make "tune an unison video" now because I have not own camera,sorry
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2026569 - 02/03/13 11:00 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Johnkie]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
As I understand things T hammers were more suited to tuning early pianos. Modern instruments have planks that are very much firmer generally.

Why? Have that pianos weak pinblocks?
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2026706 - 02/04/13 04:50 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1712
Loc: London, England
Good question, Max.

Habit, really. The T- hammer was used exusively for early instruments. A lever was probably not even considered. the string diameters were thinner, made of brass and smaller pins. Much easier to turn.

As wire diameters became thicker in pianos and higher tensions were beginning to be used, a T-hammer was still sufficient. It's use was taught into the 1960's and first year students of tuning at one school had to use it exclusively for the first year. Most likely on the older pianos. Students taught in factories and rebuilding shops were trained with the lever to the best of my knowledge.

I have just quickly checked 45 very heavily played pianos here that have been tuned with a T- hammer on their last tuning. I had no tuning to do. For me, the speed is marginally faster than anything else I use.

I did this so that I could talk with some authority about my experience.

There is an awful lot of stuff on this forum that really should be prefaced with the words "I would think" or "I imagine".

I am a 6'1 medium build person and perhaps a little stronger than most but by absolutely no means the bodybuilder type. I find that turning a T hammer clockwise takes no more thumb pressure (RH) than it takes on a lever in order to turn a springy pin without springing it. The reverse is usually just to set the pin so doesn't take much.

I use pure pin setting and let the students do my test blows so I don't beat them in. I feel the string instead.

The last time I wrote on this tool, I mentioned that I couldn't make pure turning motions with it. After 10 days of two hours with it every morning, I find that I can turn a pin in smaller and smaller increments without springing it. (eliminating the "marshmallow zone").
I don't really know what I'm doing different. More thumb pressure, perhaps?

Note to Max.

The way you use your T-bar hammer frightens me. The tool you have lends itself to abuse too easily and there are too many bad habits to eradicate. Please stay with the lever for me. I know it is like starting all over again and that is the best thing, right here, right now.


Edited by rxd (02/04/13 04:57 AM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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