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#2028358 - 02/06/13 08:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy


I did go to a concert last year with this group though. I, er, can't say I really enjoyed as much as I thought I would. I guess I was hoping for more of 'something' and less of what I heard. Amazing players, all, but for me it bordered into the 'free jazz' territory too much. (yes, yes, I know, I don't need a lecture...haha)


scept! check out what happened to this guy for saying the "wrong" thing about wayne shorter! smile

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Alex-Hoffman/137654883177

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#2028368 - 02/06/13 08:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: printer1
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy


I did go to a concert last year with this group though. I, er, can't say I really enjoyed as much as I thought I would. I guess I was hoping for more of 'something' and less of what I heard. Amazing players, all, but for me it bordered into the 'free jazz' territory too much. (yes, yes, I know, I don't need a lecture...haha)


scept! check out what happened to this guy for saying the "wrong" thing about wayne shorter! smile

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Alex-Hoffman/137654883177


I don't get it. Didn't find anything there.

I watched Wayne and Herbie last year and have tickets again for May. Clearly they're in Free Jazz territory when I saw it. The only thing fixed was a melodic motif. Key, rhythm, etc. was all out the window. Even the motif was returned to only ever so often. It probably surprised me when I saw it the first time because I was expecting the usual standards from Herbie. But now I'm going to be more receptive. I actually haven't heard any recordings that are similar to what they played.

Wayne just showed up at Disney hall with a few melodic fragments from the night before. That was the basis of the concert. Nothing planned whatsoever. It was pretty clearly just a work of the moment. No "heads". Drummer and bass were free.
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#2028486 - 02/07/13 01:19 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: jazzwee


I watched Wayne and Herbie last year and have tickets again for May. Clearly they're in Free Jazz territory when I saw it. The only thing fixed was a melodic motif. Key, rhythm, etc. was all out the window. Even the motif was returned to only ever so often.



So what held Herbie's solo together, like how did his solo develop ?
Printer has got me listening to Paul Bley who returns to the changes at times, plus his patterns melodically hang together.

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#2028500 - 02/07/13 02:19 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: custard apple

So what held Herbie's solo together, like how did his solo develop ?
Printer has got me listening to Paul Bley who returns to the changes at times, plus his patterns melodically hang together.


He would start with the motif. Repeat many times. Then change the harmony underneath. Until the harmony was completely unrelated. Then move the motif to shifting keys. Kept it recognizable somewhat.

Then abandoned the motif completely. Then when you thought the motif was forgotten, he starts playing it again a little bit. Then abandons it again. Then finishes off with the motif being very strong.

Other than the motif, there was NOTHING else constant. Not the rhythm. Not the harmony. Not the bass line. NOTHING. You couldn't even tell what meter they were playing.

Wayne particularly used LOTS OF SPACE. LOTS AND LOTS. No fear of space. He would purposely put his hand on the piano, away from the sax for many measures (whatever a measure was).

Underneath this motif, the drums was changing rhythms. The bass player following along but the harmony wasn't connected. I had no idea if they had chords.

The only tune that was 'known' all night was Cantaloupe Island. And even that was hardly recognizable.

This is the new experimental Quartet. Like a generation past what they did with Miles Davis.

It taught me something about music. The melodic motif was so repeated and ingrained, modified, rearranged but it was still there. That was the only glue. Nothing else showed the form. Interesting concept.

BTW - I don't think they knew where they were going either. Some of these tunes were 20 minutes long. Everything was about the moment.

So because there was some minimal structure (motif), this isn't completely free jazz. There's a shape to what they were doing. A buildup of tension/release. But it was close to free. Actually, when there was no motif (like in the middle), it was pretty much free jazz.

It was pretty deep even for hardcore jazz aficionados like me. At times, I thought of the "Emperor's New Clothes". It probably took me a day to appreciate what I just heard.
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#2028535 - 02/07/13 04:14 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: custard apple
Printer has got me listening to Paul Bley who returns to the changes at times, plus his patterns melodically hang together.
Paul Bley, yeah! Listen to the solo piano album "Open to Love", it was recorded around the same time as "Facing you" - same piano, same studio.
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#2028536 - 02/07/13 04:16 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
How is it that you can hear this in (where are you again? Stockholm?) and I can't hear it in Canada!?!?
Stockholm it is. Sorry to hear that. Do you have Spotify? The album is there. But I can really recommend it, it's on iTunes.
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#2028551 - 02/07/13 05:24 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Thanks jazzwee and Chris for your insight.
I've just had the pleasure of listening to Paul Bley play Ida Lupino on you-tube.
I was intrigued by his use of space and the linking of his motifs.
I plan to listen to more later.

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#2028614 - 02/07/13 08:55 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 625
Loc: Chicago
I listened to Shorter's new CD, and also heard the group in concert a couple of years ago. While I admire what they are doing, in all honestly, it's a chore to listen to. I can do without melody and harmony if there is a good groove, or without a good groove if there are great melodies and harmonies, but throw away all three, and I find nothing of interest. I've tried to like free jazz for years, and here in Chicago, with the AACM, we've got plenty of it. It just doesn't appeal to me at all. This is consistent with my taste in all the art forms. In classical music, for example, I love Shostakovich and Prokofiev, but can't really listen to Schoenberg, Webern or Berg.

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#2028644 - 02/07/13 09:50 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
this is going to a good thread!

cAPPLE & cBELL

http://quentintschofen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/PaulBleyClosersmaller.pdf

transcription of bley on the the first track of "open to love."

jazzwee .. that link to the facebook page a couple of posts back ... the page belongs to a very (VERY) talented young sax guy in NYC. he posted about Wayne Shorter using very crude language ... about as crude as cab be in english ... consequently, his facebook page has 400+ comments, maybe now 500+ comments most of which question his sanity, judgement, etc.

some of the comments are from top-level jazz musicians. anyway, it's a very interesting page with all those comments about all kinds of things.

... most people come into the world w/out love 4 Schoeberg, Berg, Webern, etc. Only some leave the world w/acquired love for those composers .. and cecil taylor, etc.

then there's open to love which kind of isn't this or that ...

has anyone looked at a piano transcription of the rite of spring?.

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#2028666 - 02/07/13 10:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: printer1
Thanks for the transcription!

Originally Posted By: printer1
... most people come into the world w/out love 4 Schoeberg, Berg, Webern, etc. Only some leave the world w/acquired love for those composers .. and cecil taylor, etc.
Well I grew up with the music of Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Boulez, Dallapiccola, et consortes (my mother was a concert-singer, 20th century contemporary music was her forte) so you could say I came into this world with a love for the sound of different harmonies, then again my dad played jazz in bands in Soho; so I have one foot in each tradition . . .

Originally Posted By: printer1
then there's open to love which kind of isn't this or that ...
Amen to that.

Originally Posted By: printer1
has anyone looked at a piano transcription of the rite of spring?.
Yes. Both the solo piano version as well as the original piano a quatre mains version (the one that Stravinsky did and performed together with Debussy a year before the orchestral version made it's first performance.
The music is great and as awesome as the quatre mains is, it's pretty noisy. I do prefer the orchestral version. But maybe this is because I've recorded and produced an album with the four-handed version. So I'm a tad bit tired of the banging . .
smile
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#2028717 - 02/07/13 12:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
cb ... VERY NICE life experiences! thanx for sharing ....

.. for the rite was thinking actually of solo (rather than duo) piano transcriptions as a great source of stuff for pianists ... melody, harmony, rhythm , etc ...

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#2028826 - 02/07/13 03:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Originally Posted By: printer1
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy


I did go to a concert last year with this group though. I, er, can't say I really enjoyed as much as I thought I would. I guess I was hoping for more of 'something' and less of what I heard. Amazing players, all, but for me it bordered into the 'free jazz' territory too much. (yes, yes, I know, I don't need a lecture...haha)


scept! check out what happened to this guy for saying the "wrong" thing about wayne shorter! smile

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Alex-Hoffman/137654883177


I don't get it. Didn't find anything there.


Go to the 'recent posts' section, then click 'see all'


And printer1, yes, the guy said something a bit harsh, and the responses were equally as harsh.

I think when people haven't heard an artist live before, and are expecting to hear something similar to what they've become accustomed to through older recordings there is going to a bit of cognitive dissonance probably resulting in anger or disappointment at the musicians if they are not playing in the same style as on the recordings.

Maybe in Alex's case he just doesn't like what Wayne is doing anymore and has seen him taking this direction for the past 10 years. I don't really know. But, for my tastes and current listening tolerances, what Wayne is doing is too far removed for me.

I'm sure that if I went to hear Beethoven and he started playing like Schoenberg I'd feel the same.
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Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#2028830 - 02/07/13 03:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 672
I've always thought Wayne Shorter's playing sounded like garbage)
Great composer!

DF

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#2028885 - 02/07/13 05:23 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1194
Loc: uk south
I guess we must all hear music very differently

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDfg63F2I2Q

sounds amazing to me
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#2028954 - 02/07/13 07:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Very nice Beeboss! Enjoyed that.

As I said some pages back, I'm intending on adding Night Dreamer to my set list. Awesome tune and awesome solo. Kurt Elling took his solo here and actually made it the melody of his lyrics. Can you imagine the entire solo being immortalized as the actual melody? That shows the awesomeness of it. Wayne Shorter is amazing.

I do wish to hear some of these older tunes when I watch him but I guess he's hearing things differently nowadays.

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#2028960 - 02/07/13 07:25 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
here's another "old" wayne shorter ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGoFjl_8Pbw

Gil Evans, Elvin Jones, Kenny Burrell, Gary Peacock, Phil Woods and more.

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#2028965 - 02/07/13 07:39 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1194
Loc: uk south
That is a great tune Printer, I especially love the version on 'etcetera' as Herbie is on fire on his solo. The Gil Evans arrangement is amazing though.

Here is the etcetera version ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cpchZchDhw
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#2028971 - 02/07/13 07:53 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1194
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee


I do wish to hear some of these older tunes when I watch him but I guess he's hearing things differently nowadays.



He has been revisiting al lot of the old tunes in the last years although with a fresh new approach. Orbits and Plaza real are both on the new cd and footprints (live) is virtually a retrospective with tunes from every part of his long career. They always sound like new imaginings though becasue the band have the freedom to take the tunes to new places every time they play them.
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#2029092 - 02/08/13 01:01 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: printer1
here's another "old" wayne shorter ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGoFjl_8Pbw

Gil Evans, Elvin Jones, Kenny Burrell, Gary Peacock, Phil Woods and more.



Very Nice! Love that kind of modal sound.
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#2029115 - 02/08/13 02:39 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
beboss, etc is a great recording. thanx for adding it to the discussion.

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#2029148 - 02/08/13 04:27 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Hey Prints
I've just listened to Paul Bley play Closer. Thanks for the transcription, now that was an extremely difficult one to notate, being so free.

Hey Chris
You have some very nice heritage, useful too !

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#2029866 - 02/09/13 12:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Talking about Wayne Shorter....Apparently I have a ticket to tonight's show. Wayne Shorter, Esperanza Spalding and the LA Philharmonic.

It just popped up on my Calendar on my computer. I had no idea...LOL.

So this is a little different.
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#2029907 - 02/09/13 01:51 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Talking about Wayne Shorter....Apparently I have a ticket to tonight's show. Wayne Shorter, Esperanza Spalding and the LA Philharmonic.

It just popped up on my Calendar on my computer. I had no idea...LOL.

So this is a little different.


They're all together? Interesting. I'm seeing Esperanza in June.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#2029923 - 02/09/13 02:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
It will be a different kind of music from what we've been talking about for sure. I have no idea what to expect.

So this means I'm seeing Wayne twice. I have tickets for May (with Herbie). That will be more of the free jazz thing I'm sure.

Tonight will likely be compositions. Obviously since there's the LA Phil playing with him. Disney Hall is an awesome venue for listening to music. Every time I watch/listen, it makes me want to throw all my MP3 players away, like I'm only hearing HALF.

I've got season tix for Jazz.
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#2030833 - 02/10/13 10:52 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Great fun at the Wayne Shorter concert.

It was Wayne's Quartet (Perez, Patittuci, Blade) + Spalding as a guest vocalist for a couple of tunes and then backed by the LA Philharmonic Orchestra.

Now it's not completely jazz but it showed off Shorter's composing talent and I have to say it was quite impressive. I believe the LAPhil Foundation funded Shorter to compose this performance tonight. Except for 2 tunes done by the quartet for the first 10 minutes (Myrrh followed by Orbits -- which were done exactly like the latest Album), the rest of the show as composed and played with the orchestra. Everything was written out including the drum hits by Brian Blade. It was weird seeing a jazz drummer read music to determine a hit on the tom, snare, bass drum or ride. Spalding's role was a vocal instrument. On the first long piece, she was saying some words that weren't understood anyway. The next time she came up, she was singing tones without words (not scat) like a solo instrument.

Shorter hardly played. It was more about watching his vision being performed. Since there's minimal improvisation and most everything is written out, it's not really jazz (although this is billed as part of the LA Phil Jazz program). The compositions themselves floated in the region of being classical to something with a groove. Most of the time, the orchestra was in strict time like jazz. So that's different from a classical symphony. But that was it was: a symphony. It was unique from the rhythmic point of view. We don't normally associate a groove with symphonic music but many a time, the pulse was strong with Brian Blade's drumming.

I was amazed at the quality of the symphony. His composition skills are outstanding. This is not some Schoenberg 12 tone thing. You can see the roots in his other compositions like Orbit. His melodic creations are atypical of regular western music. But totally memorable. Large intervals. Resolving in a different key. That kind of thing.

Again, this wasn't jazz per se past the first 10 minutes.

I'm seeing him again in May as I said, with Herbie. Apparently, this year, the theme is a Miles Tribute so that will be more traditional I expect. I had to pull out my Miles Smiles CD and listen to their version of Orbits on that.

Brad Mehldau did the symphony thing with jazz and his was more jazz since the rhythm section played constantly. This was different and Shorter's compositions are much more sonically complex. This attempt to bridge jazz and written symphonic music sounds like a continuation of the Gil Evans days. And there's obvious similarities between what Shorter did and Gil Evans, though it seemed to be taken to a more serious symphonic level.
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#2030872 - 02/11/13 12:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Thanks for the review JW.
Didn't know Spalding was a vocalist too.
Do you mean the orchestra played with a swing feel ?

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#2030890 - 02/11/13 01:14 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: custard apple
Thanks for the review JW.
Didn't know Spalding was a vocalist too.
Do you mean the orchestra played with a swing feel ?


No swing. Even eighths feel.

I don't think he has any swing on his new album either. And no swing at all when I watched him with Herbie last year.
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#2031543 - 02/11/13 11:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Just a random recording made this week.

Stella by Starlight (with BIAB)
https://www.box.com/s/0l1ic1o49nc7uk4lbc16


BTW I have 3 gigs this week and I'm planning on playing Con Alma for the first time. Hopefully, by the 3rd gig, I would have figured it out.
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#2031597 - 02/12/13 01:27 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
jazzwee - very very nice playing .... !!

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#2031818 - 02/12/13 12:40 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
So nice of you printer1! Thanks!
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