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#2023247 - 01/29/13 04:05 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Heroic polonaise? I love that song.




I actually really enjoy this little hommage à Chopin.

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#2023311 - 01/29/13 07:47 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Mark_C]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6101
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
I use the 4th and 5th fingers on the outer notes. How do you play that next chord?

You realize you're risking being told that your post wasn't as interesting as his.... grin


I live on the edge.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2023360 - 01/29/13 09:55 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Damon]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6274
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
I use the 4th and 5th fingers on the outer notes. How do you play that next chord?

You realize you're risking being told that your post wasn't as interesting as his.... grin

I live on the edge.

We admire risk takers. Go for it !! thumb
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#2023404 - 01/29/13 11:57 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: carey]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19263
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Dustin Spray
I was thinking about trying to learn this song. How brutal is it to learn? It may be beyond my league. I'm to the point of playing Prelude in C sharp minor by Rachmaninov and Prelude in D flat Major Chopin. I think it's about twice the difficulty of those pieces?

First of all, let me apologize in advance for anyone who gets on your case for calling it a "song"! (We have some snobs about that.)That said, anyone who calls this piece a song probably isn't advanced enough to play it. grin

Snobbery has nothing to do with it. It's just plain wrong. smile
I believe I'm correct in saying that usage eventually determines meaning. Anyone who is around people 25 years old or less knows that for virtually everyone in that group "song" means any musical composition whether sung or not. If it is already not defined that way in some dictionaries I have little doubt that within a few years it will be.


Edited by pianoloverus (01/29/13 11:57 AM)

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#2023427 - 01/29/13 12:37 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: pianoloverus]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4951
Maybe someone will correct me, but I believe 'song' as a generic word for any musical composition only came into general use when MP3 players (which can only record 'songs', even if you load it with a 90 minute Mahler Symphony) came into general use, replacing the Walkmans that preceded them, because that's what the LCD display says, and as we know, computers are never wrong.....

I certainly don't remember anyone around me (not even teenagers) calling non-vocal music 'songs' before then.

Not even for Für Elise......

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#2023462 - 01/29/13 01:38 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: pianoloverus]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19708
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I believe I'm correct in saying that usage eventually determines meaning. Anyone who is around people 25 years old or less knows that for virtually everyone in that group "song" means any musical composition whether sung or not. If it is already not defined that way in some dictionaries I have little doubt that within a few years it will be.

I can't help agreeing with you. ha

I agree totally. While I'm with those who would sort of like "song" to be reserved for how we use it, we're fighting a losing battle. And really, there isn't much point to the battle. I think if anything, we should be glad that more and more people, including those not more heavily immersed in classical music training, are interested in classical music, including to the point of participating in a forum such as this. And language evolves. I'm sure there are hundreds of words and phrases that all of us pedants use, without a second thought, which were originally 'misuses.'

Speaking of which, there's another current 'misuse' which I would bet 99% of us pedants now use without a second thought, which bothers me a lot more than this song thing. In fact, I might even be the only one who considers it a misuse ha but that's my story and I'm sticking to it:

"Shipping," when no boat is involved. grin
I cringe a little every time I see the term. I call it "delivery." How it got to be "shipping," I don't know. But it is what it is. smile

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#2023463 - 01/29/13 01:41 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: bennevis]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19708
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Maybe someone will correct me, but I believe 'song' as a generic word for any musical composition only came into general use when MP3 players (which can only record 'songs'....

I'm happy to correct you. grin

We called them "songs" when I was growing up, in the '50's, and I continued doing it into the early '60's.

In fact, my first teacher did it, even though she was a formal type -- probably not because that was her usual way of doing it but to use the same vocabulary that her kid students used. There did come a time when she started getting on my case for saying "song."

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#2023563 - 01/29/13 05:21 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Mark_C]
Derulux Offline
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Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5293
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Speaking of which, there's another current 'misuse' which I would bet 99% of us pedants now use without a second thought, which bothers me a lot more than this song thing. In fact, I might even be the only one who considers it a misuse ha but that's my story and I'm sticking to it:

"Shipping," when no boat is involved. grin
I cringe a little every time I see the term. I call it "delivery." How it got to be "shipping," I don't know. But it is what it is. smile

But "delivery" is wrong, too, because it refers only to the act of actually turning the product over to the recipient, and not the actual process of transporting the product. wink

(Logistics people hate the term "delivery" where it means "transportation". Almost as much as classical people hate the term "song" when it replaces "piece" or "work". Although technically, "piece" would be wrong, too, because it would indicate that the thing itself is part of a whole. And "work" would be wrong, because the physical labor has already been done. What you have is not the "work" but the "product". See how futile this all gets?)
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#2023570 - 01/29/13 05:35 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Mark_C]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3752
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Speaking of which, there's another current 'misuse' which I would bet 99% of us pedants now use without a second thought, which bothers me a lot more than this song thing. In fact, I might even be the only one who considers it a misuse ha but that's my story and I'm sticking to it:

"Shipping," when no boat is involved. grin
I cringe a little every time I see the term. I call it "delivery." How it got to be "shipping," I don't know. But it is what it is. smile


Then you'll love this use: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipping_(fandom)

This term is actually used, vigorously and passionately, by certain kinds of people.

-J
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#2023571 - 01/29/13 05:38 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: bennevis]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6101
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Maybe someone will correct me, but I believe 'song' as a generic word for any musical composition only came into general use when MP3 players came into general use......


Allow me. You're wrong. People, kids in particular, have been doing it all my life which unfortunately predates mp3s.
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#2023596 - 01/29/13 06:25 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Damon]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4951
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Maybe someone will correct me, but I believe 'song' as a generic word for any musical composition only came into general use when MP3 players came into general use......


Allow me. You're wrong. People, kids in particular, have been doing it all my life which unfortunately predates mp3s.


Ah, I'd always suspected I live on a different planet.

My suspicions are happily confirmed..... grin

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#2023600 - 01/29/13 06:33 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Derulux]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19708
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Derulux
But "delivery" is wrong, too, because it refers only to the act of actually turning the product over to the recipient, and not the actual process of transporting the product. wink

"Delivery" doesn't exactly also mean transporting??

Huh......I guess you're right!
(Nice get!!)

That's one that I had gotten so used-to that it never occurred to me that it didn't mean literally what I thought.

So, from now on I'm going to insist on "transporting." ha

Until Derulux points out that it's not "transporting" unless PORTS are involved. grin

Originally Posted By: beet31425

Ha!!
(Didn't know that one!)

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#2023635 - 01/29/13 07:54 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: bennevis]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17917
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: bennevis
[...]
Ah, I'd always suspected I live on a different planet.

My suspicions are happily confirmed..... grin


It must be the same planet that I live on, because I had never heard "song" used in the context we are discussing until only a few years ago. None of the students I studied with over the years ever said "song" unless they meant "song."

Before you rush to remind me what a backward country Canada is when it comes to "hip" culture, let me remind you that I lived in the US from 1969 to 2005, and only began hearing "song" for "composition" (et al.) in the late 90's.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
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Estonia 190

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#2023641 - 01/29/13 07:58 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: BruceD]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4951
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: bennevis
[...]
Ah, I'd always suspected I live on a different planet.

My suspicions are happily confirmed..... grin


It must be the same planet that I live on, because I had never heard "song" used in the context we are discussing until only a few years ago. None of the students I studied with over the years ever said "song" unless they meant "song."

Regards,


We must both be living on Alpha Centauri Bb (or is that B flat?). Great to meet a fellow Centaurian....... wink

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#2023651 - 01/29/13 08:16 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Mark_C]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5293
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Derulux
But "delivery" is wrong, too, because it refers only to the act of actually turning the product over to the recipient, and not the actual process of transporting the product. wink

"Delivery" doesn't exactly also mean transporting??

Huh......I guess you're right!
(Nice get!!)

That's one that I had gotten so used-to that it never occurred to me that it didn't mean literally what I thought.

So, from now on I'm going to insist on "transporting." ha

Until Derulux points out that it's not "transporting" unless PORTS are involved. grin

Originally Posted By: beet31425

Ha!!
(Didn't know that one!)

Hahaha you got to "ports" faster than I did, actually. If you hadn't said it, I might not have even made the connection. wink

To the wiki link.. that is both hilarious and disturbing at the same time.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2023678 - 01/29/13 09:20 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Derulux]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6101
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
After years of study experimentation and consultation I have found that the opening octave of this piece is best played using 1-5 in both hands. (This is at least as important/interesting as many of the recent posts on this thread.)


I use the 4th and 5th fingers on the outer notes. How do you play that next chord?

If you mean the rising 16ths, I've done it two ways: with one hand (the right), and split. When I split, I actually play the top two notes of each chord with my right hand, and the bottom chromatic note with my left.


Yes the rising 16ths. The very first chord I play with 4-1 in the left hand and 2 in the right, then play the rest with single notes in the left and double in the right.

Originally Posted By: Derulux

And I apologize if I missed a joke. Sometimes I don't quite catch the subtlety when it's written out. smile


I was being waggish, but hey, why not take it apart note by note? shocked
_________________________
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#2023694 - 01/29/13 09:53 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: JoelW]
Scordatura Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 76
Loc: Suffolk, UK
Originally Posted By: JoelW
If in fact you do mean the octaves with the trills at the top, there is a really neat trick that Stanisalv Bunin does. Instead of playing the octave after each trill with the right hand only (which is where the difficulty comes from), ADD the bottom half of the octave to the left hand's chords. That way you free the right up while the left hand feels virtually the same.

Damn! I thought I was the only person ever to discover and use that trick (well,okay, doubtless it didn't escape the likes of Busoni and Friedman!). Cat's out of the bag now, well and true. No more gasps of admiration over my apparent faultless ease here... will just have to find something else to fake equally impressively.

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#2023705 - 01/29/13 10:20 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Damon]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5293
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
After years of study experimentation and consultation I have found that the opening octave of this piece is best played using 1-5 in both hands. (This is at least as important/interesting as many of the recent posts on this thread.)


I use the 4th and 5th fingers on the outer notes. How do you play that next chord?

If you mean the rising 16ths, I've done it two ways: with one hand (the right), and split. When I split, I actually play the top two notes of each chord with my right hand, and the bottom chromatic note with my left.


Yes the rising 16ths. The very first chord I play with 4-1 in the left hand and 2 in the right, then play the rest with single notes in the left and double in the right.

Originally Posted By: Derulux

And I apologize if I missed a joke. Sometimes I don't quite catch the subtlety when it's written out. smile


I was being waggish, but hey, why not take it apart note by note? shocked

Thank you for being so jocular, and for letting me down easy. smile

I tried to follow the progression of your fingering. LH, assuming 14-3 2132 1? RH, same as me (below), except for the distribution of the "E" on the first chord? This is what I use:

LH: standard chromatic (31 3213 1)
RH: 12-13 24-15-24-15 24


EDIT: And thank you. Because of this question, I went back and read through the piece in its entirety. Haven't touched it in at least four years, but it was manageable and enjoyable. smile


Edited by Derulux (01/29/13 10:54 PM)
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Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2023726 - 01/29/13 11:01 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Derulux]
Scordatura Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 76
Loc: Suffolk, UK
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Speaking of which, there's another current 'misuse' which I would bet 99% of us pedants now use without a second thought, which bothers me a lot more than this song thing. In fact, I might even be the only one who considers it a misuse ha but that's my story and I'm sticking to it:

"Shipping," when no boat is involved. grin
I cringe a little every time I see the term. I call it "delivery." How it got to be "shipping," I don't know. But it is what it is. smile

But "delivery" is wrong, too, because it refers only to the act of actually turning the product over to the recipient, and not the actual process of transporting the product. wink


Well, "delivery" suits me just fine. Believe it or not, the idea of someone handing over a product I've ordered and taken it for granted would be transported to me, is exactly what I anticipate and intend to transpire on ordering it. And, moreover, I seriously believe my delivery address to be the place where that is most likely to transpire. Call me nuts or what?

What's the point of giving a shipping address, I ask. How the heck do I know what the ship's address is (er, "no fixed abode", "moved away", perhaps?)?

Likewise "transportation" address, except that would be even vaguer. At least your ship's address is likely to be somewhere on the seven seas. No such clues where the latter term is concerned.

Call me cranky, but I genuinely maintain it's helpful to use words that convey to others exactly what's meant, especially when they're trying to do something on my behalf.

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#2023732 - 01/29/13 11:11 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Derulux]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6101
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Derulux

I tried to follow the progression of your fingering. LH, assuming 14-3 2132 1? RH, same as me (below), except for the distribution of the "E" on the first chord? This is what I use:

LH: standard chromatic (31 3213 1)
RH: 12-13 24-15-24-15 24


Exactly!

RH: 2---13---24---15---24---15---24
LH: 41----3----2----1----3----2----1
_________________________
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#2023757 - 01/30/13 12:23 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Scordatura]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5293
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Scordatura
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Speaking of which, there's another current 'misuse' which I would bet 99% of us pedants now use without a second thought, which bothers me a lot more than this song thing. In fact, I might even be the only one who considers it a misuse ha but that's my story and I'm sticking to it:

"Shipping," when no boat is involved. grin
I cringe a little every time I see the term. I call it "delivery." How it got to be "shipping," I don't know. But it is what it is. smile

But "delivery" is wrong, too, because it refers only to the act of actually turning the product over to the recipient, and not the actual process of transporting the product. wink


Well, "delivery" suits me just fine. Believe it or not, the idea of someone handing over a product I've ordered and taken it for granted would be transported to me, is exactly what I anticipate and intend to transpire on ordering it. And, moreover, I seriously believe my delivery address to be the place where that is most likely to transpire. Call me nuts or what?

What's the point of giving a shipping address, I ask. How the heck do I know what the ship's address is (er, "no fixed abode", "moved away", perhaps?)?

Likewise "transportation" address, except that would be even vaguer. At least your ship's address is likely to be somewhere on the seven seas. No such clues where the latter term is concerned.

Call me cranky, but I genuinely maintain it's helpful to use words that convey to others exactly what's meant, especially when they're trying to do something on my behalf.


So, you'll hand a package to someone and say, "Delivery this for me"?

The term, "shipper" is extremely accurate. It means, "a person who ships goods or makes shipments."

However, the legal terms usually applied are "consignor" and "consignee". The logistics industry uses these terms interchangeably with "shipper" and "receiver". (I actually happen to have about a decade of experience in this particular industry.) smile
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2023759 - 01/30/13 12:29 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Derulux]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19708
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Derulux
....The logistics industry uses these terms interchangeably with "shipper" and "receiver". (I actually happen to have about a decade of experience in this particular industry.) smile

No, not unless you used a boat.
(And perhaps a radio.) grin

But seriously folks....that's interesting. smile

Although I'm sure there's someone who's sitting there disagreeing and still not getting a word of it. ha

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#2024451 - 01/31/13 05:15 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: Mark_C]
SlatterFan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 783
Loc: Brighton, UK
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Speaking of which, there's another current 'misuse' which I would bet 99% of us pedants now use without a second thought, which bothers me a lot more than this song thing. In fact, I might even be the only one who considers it a misuse ha but that's my story and I'm sticking to it:

"Shipping," when no boat is involved. grin
I cringe a little every time I see the term. I call it "delivery." How it got to be "shipping," I don't know. But it is what it is. smile

I find this digression interesting too! I will read Jason's Wiki link later today.

My view is that "ship" is seen by some as a generic term for "transportation vessel". Thus what is casually called a ship could be described more specifically as a seaship; hot-air balloons, zeppelins, and planes are different forms of airship; Armstrong et al traveled in a rocket ship (or rocketship) in 1969, which could also reasonably be called a moonship; and in science fiction it is natural to travel to the stars in a starship. In short, if we view ships as not limited to vessels that travel across the sea, the modern usage is logical and sensible.
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#2024460 - 01/31/13 06:11 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: bennevis]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7780
Originally Posted By: bennevis


I certainly don't remember anyone around me (not even teenagers) calling non-vocal music 'songs' before then.



I do remember it being used that way, prior to the age of iTunes, for very small children and others who might not be expected to be able make the distinction, or didn't have the working vocabulary to express it.

Actually, I first ran into the current form of misuse quite a while before it was popularized, way back in the 1980s. It turned up as part of the verbiage used to describe MIDI, maybe because the nerds responsible for creating that protocol didn't really care all that much about the linguistic aspect of what they were doing (but I don't know that for a fact). My old Yamaha SY77 synth even calls its MIDI recording mode "song mode".

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#2024465 - 01/31/13 06:35 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: wr]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4951
Originally Posted By: wr
My old Yamaha SY77 synth even calls its MIDI recording mode "song mode".





I don't know how long synths and digitals have been around for (I never took any notice of them until three years ago, when I, er, bought one....), but maybe they started the rot, rather than iPods and the like mad.

It annoys me no end that when I record myself on my digital, it insists on calling it a 'Song' - though there's no way I can record myself singing Schubert while playing the piano part. Though my digital is the most customizable on the (current) planet, that doesn't extend to allowing its user to correct its inappropriate use of English..... cry.

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#2024477 - 01/31/13 07:35 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: bennevis]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6101
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: wr
My old Yamaha SY77 synth even calls its MIDI recording mode "song mode".





I don't know how long synths and digitals have been around for (I never took any notice of them until three years ago, when I, er, bought one....), but maybe they started the rot, rather than iPods and the like mad.


We must find the culprit and make them pay!
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#2047777 - 03/13/13 05:26 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 53... [Re: JordanS.]
kapelli Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 380
Loc: Poland
I know that this topic is old, but laugh

Having listened dozens of renditions, live, from CD's and on youtube I must say that:
- technically this is very demanding piece, and there are many of horrible places like octaves in the middle section
- there's dozens of recording on youtube, when people play it and you clearly can hear that this STATE OF THE ART PIANO MUSIC PIECE is immensly hard to play, both technically and musically even worse.

It's based on polish dance calles polonaise as you know, with the base rythm.

just listen to Blechacz - this is how this piece should be played smile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0olrJAmX60

Perfect tone, style and tempo.
Non plus ultra? Perhaps.

I can also play the firt and second pages. They are easy compared to rest smile

Edit few hours later:
SAMSON FRANCOIS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ylB7TORrH4 - how is he doing this? It's immense.


Edited by kapelli (03/13/13 06:23 PM)

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