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#1844967 - 02/15/12 01:43 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Obviously the harmony I use in the minor blues doesn't focus on the main chord tones. I deliberately avoid the b3 of the chord. I wanted to show this example because it is intentional what I do and whether you like it or not, I happen to like it. I just want to focus on groove, phrasing and time.

I'm very happy it sounds different. If anything, my weakest point is I'm unsure of myself so I can't highlight the idea with intent. And when I played it front of my teacher he said 'good' that I was focusing on the 9/13. It's part of this style and my voice.

It's funny that the more we debate this the more firm I am about my intent.

I wouldn't do this on ATTYA. Doesn't fit. Aside from Footprints though, I'll do it on Invitation, Stolen Moments, Mr. PC, parts of Solar, parts of Stella, 500 Miles High...etc.

Ever since I started doing this, I've been getting this extended "talks" about vocabulary. Surely guys like Alan Pasqua and Bill Cunliffe can hear what I'm doing. Given how strict Alan is with harmonic outlining that we would stop me if he didn't buy what I was outlining.

The reason he doesn't is because whatever I'm doing, someone else has done. I just looked at the transcription of Oliver Nelson's solo on Stolen Moments. He's outlining the same tones I am. 9/11/13. It's my vocabulary.
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#1844973 - 02/15/12 01:49 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
BTW - I just wanted to comment on Pilc. As often as I post that, what I'm really trying to say is that, I can't hear what he plays there. those intervals are really strange.

But when he does it with so much intent, particularly when he sings with it, I start to buy it. I think my weakness is LACK OF INTENT. I think motif repetition will help build intent.

If I'm not sure what I want to hear, the listener will not be sure either.

On my the re-upload of the Footprints recording, the only thing different was more intent, though I felt it more at the beginning and started fading later on.

Anyway it's my theory.
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#1845052 - 02/15/12 07:35 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
This shows the difficulty with modal. It's really hard to shape the solo and get some tension and release going.

Anyway, there's some intervallic stuff going on here. I think there's too much stuff. In retrospect I'd simplify and maybe change rhythmically too as I progress. This is a first try though.

Footprints
http://www.box.com/s/pkenb17tu7cqqiugf4gu


I'm back to being bothered by the swing on this one.

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#1845148 - 02/15/12 09:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Knotty, that's because as it turns out, the Aebersold bass player plays behind the beat and I didn't adjust. It was a little unusual for me in a waltz because the iRealB plays on top and so does my real bass player. But I wasn't going to re-record it.

Listen to it. I couldn't even time my melody properly.

I wonder if the BIAB Bass Player behaves differently on a waltz? Perhaps Chris can answer me.
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#1845186 - 02/15/12 10:41 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1352
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I wonder if the BIAB Bass Player behaves differently on a waltz? Perhaps Chris can answer me.
The standard Jazzwaltz is pretty much on the "one". The Realtrack is also on "one" in the A section then it does a horrendous walking in the B section. I fired it.

However, I added a 4/4 bassline against the 3/4 drums and it comes out pretty interesting.
http://www.box.com/s/jn0uimv11d4y8xbxdnpm

I couldn't resist the temptation to add a Rhodes and a sop sax solo.
http://www.box.com/s/xov3n3b0fcx1s6xul4ad


Edited by chrisbell (02/15/12 10:41 AM)
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#1845212 - 02/15/12 11:18 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

You seem to think of vocabulary in different terms than I do. First, the notes are clearly from a harmonic base. There's no mystery to that. It doesn't take vocabulary to come up with notes to use for a good melody if you understand the harmonic structure.


Melody doesn't come from harmony. The basis for harmony is melody. I'm not talking about taking a melodic or harmonic approach to constructing lines. I mean that harmony is created by layering melodies over the top of each other that move in complimentary, functional ways. This is going back to tonal function as it's understood in classical music, particularly from the common practice period. The kind of stuff that is done in four-voice choral writing. While harmony can be treated as an isolated vertical occurance, it needs to be understood as a fluid connection of simulataneous melodies that each have a different "pull" against each other. An understanding of how the melodies within the harmony are functioning should be reflected in a melodic line, whether it's classical, bebop, modal, intervalic, or whatever. Obviously varying amounts of liberty can be taken with how strong or weak this relationship is, but this should be deliberate.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

The other aspect of this is phrasing the collection of notes. I was taught different phrasing. Clearly there's a lot of influence from whoever is teaching you and that affects the sound.

To me, simply presenting a scale is complete absence of vocabulary. But having a vocabulary recognizable to you is a completely different issue. Perhaps your teacher required that he hear specific copying of phrasing styles and phrasing hooks such as those common in bebop.

That's not what I was taught.


I don't think the issue is about bebop or modern vocabulary. I don't think it's necessarily about jazz at all. It's just about what makes music fit together and sound good. Of course, this is ultimately subjective, but all good musicians know how to work within the boundaries of common accepted harmonic, melodic, and rhythmic relationships. This must be understood and absorbed before anything new of lasting value can be created. I think if a musician wants to bypass this tradition to do their own thing and believes that whatever they are doing sounds good, that's fine. But anyone who does this is always going to be seen as inferior by the best musicians.

That said, my teacher in undergrad, who was also a top-notch player, never tried to stop me from playing whatever I wanted. He didn't try to push any "vocabulary" on me or make me transcribe. We just worked on analyzing tunes for ways to voice the chords, what scales could work over the changes, etc. But I was stuck when I left there. It wasn't his fault, but I later realized that I was missing out on the fundamentals. My teacher was sharing with me his passion for music and guiding me to understand all kinds of advanced concepts. But the thing is, I didn't really understand them, because I couldn't use any of it effectively. I think that teachers sometimes just don't really know how to reach back far enough to help students understand things that are so fundamental. So they just show us what they know, and hope we'll fill in the gaps on our own. But if we don't know the gaps are there, obviously that probably won't happen.


Originally Posted By: jazzwee

We were working once on Someday My Prince will come (new tune at the time for me), and I was just playing scales. Then he said "look at this" and played this wonderful unique melody just based on the chord tones. It doesn't sound like anything in standard jazz because for one, it wasn't based on eighth notes. So there's the bias.

I wish I had the ability to create the melody that he did. It didn't come from any vocabulary though. It was based on chord tones and just an ability to construct an alternate melody.

It was beautiful. That to me is the longer term goal. I'd like to have the ability to generate those ideas. It was like sitting down and composing.


It's just not possible for anything good to be void of any vocabulary. It doesn't have to be jazz vocabulary, but it has to come from some inherent understanding of fundamentals in music... not 9's and 13's, modes, triad pairs, altered scales, etc. Those things are definitely cool, but they don't work if you can't just play the basics first. It doesn't matter if you're composing, improvising, or arranging. If a melody is based on chord tones, it's based on an understanding of how those chord tones relate to each other melodically, from one chord to the next. And I'm talking about the fundamental chord tones... 1, 3, 5, and dominant 7's.

I think your teacher is really great, and plays some awesome stuff that's really advanced. But that might be why he's not telling you that you're missing the basics. Sometimes teachers just don't want to deal with that stuff, or they're used to teaching students who have already absorbed it so they don't really know how to teach it.

I know this is a hard pill to swallow, but I really just mean to help. I think it's really great how much you've learned and how passionate you are about jazz. And I know you would like to play with top-notch players some day. I would too! But I just don't think that's possible without being able to communicate in their language, which although advanced, is steeped in the basics.

The advanced stuff isn't going anywhere. It'll be there when you're ready, and it'll be much easier if you have mastered the basics first.

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#1845240 - 02/15/12 11:56 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
BTW - I just wanted to comment on Pilc. As often as I post that, what I'm really trying to say is that, I can't hear what he plays there. those intervals are really strange.

But when he does it with so much intent, particularly when he sings with it, I start to buy it. I think my weakness is LACK OF INTENT. I think motif repetition will help build intent.

If I'm not sure what I want to hear, the listener will not be sure either.

On my the re-upload of the Footprints recording, the only thing different was more intent, though I felt it more at the beginning and started fading later on.

Anyway it's my theory.


The stuff that Pilc plays that sounds strange to you isn't strange to him at all. That's how he can play it with intent. But it isn't familiar to him because he has become accustomed to the sound of something "outside". It's because he understands it and hears it in relation to the fundamental underlying harmonic/melodic relationships, or even more specifically, the key center at the time. The underlying more stable stuff is so strong in his ear that he is pulled towards it even when he gets far away and even stays far away for awhile. But at some point or points, there is always a return to the basics... the foundation that supports the "outside" stuff.

So I think you're right that you're missing intent. But I don't think you can get that intent without having basic intent first.

I'm curious... how's you're relative pitch? Have you ever tried Bruce Arnold's One Note Ear Training?

Here's the advanced level from the complete method. I'll only leave this up until you've tried it. You should be able to do this with no problem at all if you have the basics in your ear. Here's how it works... a chord progression is played to set your ear in the key of C, then it's followed by a random note for you to identify, and quickly (it's the advanced level!) followed with the answer. The ability to do this comes from having a firm grasp on the gravity of a key center and how notes "feel" against it. It's not based on intervals like many traditional ear training methods. That doesn't work.

http://www.box.com/s/2lnvayu5gb4yt63h5lhn

When I started doing this a few years ago, I worked with the basic level, which is the same stuff, just alot slower to give you time to absorb it more. I was about 50% on it then. Now I can do the advanced level at about 99%, mind wanders sometimes smile. I'm also now working with his "Key-Note Recognition" method. This one moves the key center around playing progressions in different keys, but always following the progression with a middle C. So here you have to be able to tell what the middle C is in each new key center.


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#1845243 - 02/15/12 12:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Extended talks about vocabulary from me will now, and forever more, be directed towards others, JW. You obviously have a firm belief in what you are doing, so carry on. Post more recordings when you want to share your progress.
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#1845253 - 02/15/12 12:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>>as it turns out, the Aebersold bass player plays behind the beat
Something for me to learn here. Where's the beat?

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#1845259 - 02/15/12 12:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Is this from Vol 54 - Tyrone Wheeler?

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#1845264 - 02/15/12 12:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Knotty, you can hear the hi-hat.

Chris, it's frustrating with Jazz Waltzes. There is never a good option.

Can you layer a 2/4 rhythm on top?

The Aebersold is definitely better. I just caught off guard as that was the first time I played with that track.
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#1845265 - 02/15/12 12:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty
Is this from Vol 54 - Tyrone Wheeler?

Vol 54 Maiden Voyage
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#1845272 - 02/15/12 12:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 630
Loc: Chicago
On a completely different note, my favorite jazz website, Marc Meyer's Jazzwax, is currently running a terrific 5 part interview with Rudy Van Gelder. He's putting up a new part each day. If you want to read it, I recommend scrolling down and reading part I and then part II so you get the flow.

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#1845276 - 02/15/12 12:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Scott and Scep, I wish this talk was really about vocabulary. But it's not.

I just transcribed KJ on BBBB recently. I even played with the record. There's nothing he's doing that doesn't follow my understanding of vocabulary. His twists, turns and chromatic movements are decidedly bebop (at least the portions I transcribed).

So this isn't really about that. It's because I have chosen to follow my ears that you've heard something different sounding. And somehow to you, it obliterates everything I already knew.

For 3 years with Pasqua, I had played nothing but "Chord tones on downbeats". Very strict. He had perfect pitch. He would remember every phrase I did and all the 'wrong notes'. That's how we started.

The last 2 we did more of this stuff I'm doing here. He is a modern jazz player after all. So there it is. Let's not assume I'm not doing it deliberately or I don't understand the basis.

My harmonic understanding is changing and it's affecting what my view of things. And that also affects my note choices. How it translates has to develop further but I've allowed it now to come out. It is advanced and it requires more work. But that's where it is. You will hear more of it on some types of tunes.
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#1845279 - 02/15/12 01:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1352
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Can you layer a 2/4 rhythm on top?
Hmm that would mean having Dixieland style . . . no have.
Here's another rendition, slighy better.
http://www.box.com/s/9n84si5yroi7ag4iogx7

As a trio - pno solo:
http://www.box.com/s/codgabgdx0z9xa3rb0bo
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#1845281 - 02/15/12 01:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1352
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jjo
On a completely different note, my favorite jazz website, Marc Meyer's Jazzwax, is currently running a terrific 5 part interview with Rudy Van Gelder. He's putting up a new part each day. If you want to read it, I recommend scrolling down and reading part I and then part II so you get the flow.
Very cool tip, thanks
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#1845286 - 02/15/12 01:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Can you layer a 2/4 rhythm on top?
Hmm that would mean having Dixieland style . . . no have.
Here's another rendition, slighy better.
http://www.box.com/s/9n84si5yroi7ag4iogx7

As a trio - pno solo:
http://www.box.com/s/codgabgdx0z9xa3rb0bo


Do you hear the piano? The machine is comping in dotted quarters which I would expect in Waltz. So when the bass is not walking I would expect dotted quarters too. We were trying to fake iRealB to do that by putting 2/4 on it. But the drums has to stick to 3/4.

iRealB does switch to dotted quarters but it's random. I would have expected it to do it for 'x' bars of a style so it's more realistic.

Noticed too that the machine soloing is heck bent on a traditional approach with the harmony. LOL. After all this discussion...
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#1845297 - 02/15/12 01:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1352
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
The solo style is based on Vancouver based Miles Black's playing.
http://www.milesblack.com
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#1845299 - 02/15/12 01:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Scott and Scep, I wish this talk was really about vocabulary. But it's not...

All you have to do is post recordings, JW. From there you can glean whatever support or advice, or whatever it is you may be looking for by doing so. Debate about note choices should never enter the conversation if what people hear sounds good. Period. The idea about sharing recordings was to grow, no?

Originally Posted By: JW

So this isn't really about that. It's because I have chosen to follow my ears that you've heard something different sounding. And somehow to you, it obliterates everything I already knew.

The thing is, you've not yet shown that you've known those things you say you knew, otherwise they'd be present in your current recordings, no? One doesn't need to be a pro player to demonstrate understanding of making music.
Originally Posted By: JW

For 3 years with Pasqua, I had played nothing but "Chord tones on downbeats". Very strict. He had perfect pitch. He would remember every phrase I did and all the 'wrong notes'. That's how we started.

Yes, I clearly remember that, and how adamant you were at that time that nothing else was really valid. I believe you're doing the same now, but in reverse. Somehow you're saying that all the earlier lessons are not valid, or at least not worth playing because it is somehow of less importance than exploring new territories.
Originally Posted By: JW

The last 2 we did more of this stuff I'm doing here. He is a modern jazz player after all. So there it is. Let's not assume I'm not doing it deliberately or I don't understand the basis.

I'm not assuming anything. All I can do is respond to what I hear. Perhaps your teachers have a better chance to hear what you are doing because you spend an hour with them, and there is a chance to have a dialogue about your intent and direction. However, that still doesn't equate to me agreeing with them. Kind of like me trying to convince you how great looking I am, but posting a somewhat less than pretty picture of myself.

Originally Posted By: JW

My harmonic understanding is changing and it's affecting what my view of things. And that also affects my note choices. How it translates has to develop further but I've allowed it now to come out. It is advanced and it requires more work. But that's where it is. You will hear more of it on some types of tunes.

Advanced understanding is fine. I hope you don't believe you're the first person to arrive there and that nobody else here can have any idea about where this place is. As well, like I've said by PM in the past, any advanced playing should be self-evident, not needing explanation.

I don't care to argue with you JW, but like Scott, I guess the teacher in me wants to at least ensure that you've been told that you may be missing some important stuff, despite what your current teachers are telling you.

And as I've also said, discussing these things is far less effective than posting recordings of the ideas at hand.
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#1845314 - 02/15/12 01:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1352
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Noticed too that the machine soloing is heck bent on a traditional approach with the harmony. LOL. After all this discussion...
Well, there's "endless" possibilites, I could generate two files: one with the comp, the other with a solo based on reharms. Everything is editable. The files I've been uploading take approx 10 mins to do.
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#1845315 - 02/15/12 02:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Scep, harmonic outlining is still VERY VALID. It is still the foundation of my thoughts. But I'm starting to think of harmonic movement beyond the original chords.

Obviously, I post the music where I'm trying this out. So no. I still play Autumn Leaves with harmonic outlining. In fact, that's 90% of what I play.

So yes, just react to what you hear, positively or negatively and if we avoid the "historical" context of how it got there then I'll take that reaction accordingly.

If I can't try out these advanced ideas here and potentially fail, I don't have any other forum. I can't experiment at a gig first.
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#1845326 - 02/15/12 02:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I never understood the "chord tone on downbeat" thingie.

It's as if the music was made of notes rather than ideas.

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#1845327 - 02/15/12 02:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Scep, Alan Pasqua is the head of the Jazz program at University of Southern California. Bill Cunliffe is at Cal State Fullerton. Both are Grammy nominated/Grammy winning artists aside from being monster world-class players in their own right.

I think they won't lead me to the wrong path.

There are things and what you guys play that I don't like too. Sometimes I state it. Sometimes I don't. I'm happy to listen to all critique because I'm early in my journey. So please feel free to continue to critique actual playing.

I agree that talking about 'talk' isn't as clear.
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#1845334 - 02/15/12 02:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty
I never understood the "chord tone on downbeat" thingie.

It's as if the music was made of notes rather than ideas.



It can really be summarized in a simple term of "outlining harmony". That's clearly what Bebop does and it's embedded in the style.

It's an excellent framework for understanding what makes a good solo. The contrasting approach is "chord vs. Scale" which is broader and can lead to fingers making the choices.

The next step is overlaying alternate harmony over the original changes (which apparently is a big source of debate).
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#1845352 - 02/15/12 02:42 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Scott and Scep, I wish this talk was really about vocabulary. But it's not.


I apologize if it seems that I'm being condescending or something. I really am only talking about vocabulary and how it contributes to music that reflects and understanding of the basics. I do, though, agree with Scep that I don't hear that understanding in your playing. Maybe you do understand the basics and you're just searching for your sound in advanced concepts now. If so, I am looking forward to hearing it start to come out.

You often say that you are on a different path, which to me, comes across as if you are saying that what you are doing is somehow beyond what any of us are understanding... that our paths are limited by a lack of ability to hear the things you hear. None of us are in any position to say that isn't true, and if you do hear something unique, that's great! I hope you're able to find it. Music is art and has a different meaning for everyone. I'll be the first to admit that. And you can play whatever makes you happy and there will always be people that will appreciate whatever you do.

I am reminded of something one of my professors in grad school said, "You can't fart in a microphone and call it jazz." Please don't take that personally. It's only meant to point out that the true masters of jazz know who's playing jazz and who isn't. And the only way to know if you are playing jazz in the true sense, is if you are being invited to play with the masters. Obviously, that's not happening for any of us, so what do we know? laugh

But at any rate, all I can say is that to me, the basics are missing from your playing. And in my experience, advanced concepts have to keep their roots in the basics, which means you can always hear a traceable path back through all the advanced ideas. I can't hear that in your playing yet, so it leads me to believe that you're not understanding that. Just my viewpoint though. And as I said when starting this discussion, I only want to offer that viewpoint because we're here to support each other. smile

Oh, by the way, did you try the ear training I posted?

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#1845354 - 02/15/12 02:42 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1352
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Ok. final BiaB posting. Promise.
This has a pseudo YellowJackets vibe, but what interests me is how does the programming work for creating space in the solos.
http://www.box.com/s/rn3er39bjko4hx3zzplf
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#1845364 - 02/15/12 03:06 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
I appreciate comments on my playing along specific lines, like, I don't like your note choices on 1:15. Or the idea didn't flow or I don't like the leap at 2:32.

In fact, I have had my teacher(s) listen to recordings I post here and so I get multiple reactions. But a teacher hasn't come to me and said "you don't understand the basics. You need to go back to square 1. You need to go study classical harmony". Perhaps they know where I've been or maybe understand where I'm going.

The list of flaws are huge as expected. But it's just interesting that the things I am told are completely different.

Now some do match, like "quoting myself", "let the idea stand out", "highlight the idea", "don't overplay", "give it more space".

But only here do I get comments that pertain to my understanding. Maybe I'm at a particular phase for this. But I seriously don't think my teachers are dumb. Nor am I the only student they've taught.

So it's probably best to critique my recordings and be as brutal and specific as you want. But I will probably ask a second opinion if your perception of something is inconsistent with what I hear.

I had one teacher listen to some version of Stella I posted which you guys said was "outside the harmony". And I got the answer: "they're wrong -- you're outlining the harmony". Now don't be upset when I believe the teacher in that case.
_________________________
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My Blog

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#1845378 - 02/15/12 03:32 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Scep, Alan Pasqua is the head of the Jazz program at University of Southern California. Bill Cunliffe is at Cal State Fullerton. Both are Grammy nominated/Grammy winning artists aside from being monster world-class players in their own right.

I think they won't lead me to the wrong path.

Ya, just make sure you're well prepared for the path because sometimes teachers of that level will make assumptions about your abilities, especially if you are able to talk about the theory.

On another note, since I haven't followed your other thread, I missed all of your ATTYA and AL recordings. Why not post some of your past and recent playing on those tunes here on this thread. I'm also playing those tunes now, and I still get stumped when I lose concentration.
Originally Posted By: JW

There are things and what you guys play that I don't like too. Sometimes I state it. Sometimes I don't.

Fair enough, but what makes me believe what you have to say is valid is whether or not you're able to actually play things that you're talking about. As for swing, or playing in the pocket, that is something else altogether, but I have to say it is hard to believe what you write when you're talking about melody or harmony when I don't hear the equivalent in your playing. Does that make sense?
And of course we all have our individual tastes, so I'm sure that not everything everyone plays is going to appeal to everyone else. But, I do tend to listen closely to those that have demonstrated good musical ideas and try to understand what they mean when they offer advice.
Originally Posted By: JW

I'm happy to listen to all critique because I'm early in my journey. So please feel free to continue to critique actual playing.

We'll see. I just don't like having to go through pages of defense of what I've said, so it makes me question whether a comment is then even necessary. So, I guess the point is you either post stuff that speaks for itself, or you receive the advice given that you may have missed the mark.

I remember another member on this forum stating that he tends to avoid giving advice because he feels that everyone should know what they have to work on. Maybe he was right?
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1845383 - 02/15/12 03:40 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
I'm a glutton for punishment so here's a set of Stella excerpts I posted somewhere else to show the different Nord Piano samples. This was a couple of months ago.

Stella Excerpts
http://www.box.com/s/3uc0ayheil0hprny1tnb

This is solo piano and not in time. And you see me create 4 variances and notice harmonically they sound the same. Like I'm always making the same harmonic choices (which someone will disagree with). But it just indicates that I approached it a particular way that's consistent.

Fire away.

I probably like the last one best. It was played in time so maybe that gave me some structure to hold on to.


Edited by jazzwee (02/15/12 03:43 PM)
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

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#1845395 - 02/15/12 03:52 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1352
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
I preferred the first one.
I think your issue is rhythm. Not tones, scales, note choices . . . but rhythm.
I feel that you have a tendency to push your inner rhythm to hard; sometimes it's the LH sometimes its the RH. By overemphasising the beat, you loose a relaxedness. But sometimes it's there.
Also, I think you could use repetition much more, no need to play new stuff all the time, but stay within the pocket.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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