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#1499853 - 08/20/10 11:39 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> Mehldau
I had a hint you'd say that... But Brad was just a teenager when this album came out.

This is a pianist that really came out late 70s, in the midst of everyone switching to electronic music, he just kept going with straight jazz, blowing super modern sounding lines.

I have a feeling there are a few of his albums that you might enjoy...

I feel like him and Tyner are the strongest influences on younger pianists.

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#1499861 - 08/20/10 11:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Loc: So. California
Very educational and humbling. I'll have to listen again.
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#1499884 - 08/20/10 12:36 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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the side effect of this little game is that I just ended up buying another 2 albums from this mystery artist, and one Bill Charlap (who, on the cover, looks a hell of a lot like Mehldau). I'll give a hint in an hour or 2 ...

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#1499913 - 08/20/10 01:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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The buying of albums seems to be a big effect for sure. I'm sure I will buy more than Charlap/Rosnes in the end. BTW - upon listening to the whole album, the two pianos can get awfully busy. I actually ended up liking the ones with more space which was very few.
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#1499935 - 08/20/10 02:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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I give up. It really is close to Mehldau's style although the signature endings aren't there. It isn't one of Mehldau's teachers (Werner, Hersch). Whoever it is, it is someone I need to listen to.

All the players with a similar style that I know are younger.
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#1499936 - 08/20/10 02:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
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Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Kenny Barron.

This is on an album called 'What if?' (1986). The tune is Phantoms. I haven't worked out the changes or anything, but that sounds pretty wild.
http://www.emusic.com/album/Kenny-Barron-What-If-MP3-Download/11319570.html

Great Albums. Green Chimneys in the same era is also great.
I just bought 'Canta Brasil' and 'The Traveler' that are more recent. I have yet to really listen ...

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#1499949 - 08/20/10 02:39 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Wow - that did not sound like Kenny Barron. He's more versatile than I ever imagined. I just saw him live around spring and he has such a beautiful piano touch. I think I mentioned it here because he was actually playing my teacher's tune.

You know he played with Mehldau and together you can see the contrast in styles. But yet here he and Mehldau sound similar. I was listening to some Mehldau last night and there's a lot of similarity here with this clip. I haven't heard anything from Barron that sounds like this before.
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#1500085 - 08/20/10 07:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Interesting. I initially thought it could be Brad, something about the understated feel of the swing, the articulation of the notes. But then I thought it was too harmonically safe, and there is that lick at the end of the clip that is a bit McCoy or Herbie-esque. It's pretty hard to tell with such a short clip, maybe if we had the whole solo to work with. I probably wouldn't have got it anyway though.
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#1500086 - 08/20/10 07:06 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
beeboss Offline
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JW, good job with giant steps. It sounds much more comfortable and your time is more solid as well. You are getting better at a fast rate.
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#1500125 - 08/20/10 08:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
knotty Offline
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Well Wizzie,

I bought one Bill Charlap, now how I am supposed to not buy all of the others ??

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#1500706 - 08/21/10 11:23 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Originally Posted By: beeboss
JW, good job with giant steps. It sounds much more comfortable and your time is more solid as well. You are getting better at a fast rate.


Hey Beeboss, thanks for the nice words. I was just realizing that even articulation issues are all tied to having good time (at the microscopic level). I wish there are shortcuts.

It also seems that working on something as hard as GS seems to cause more improvement than playing something simpler over and over. So this may be a regular development platform then for me.

Next recording to post is Falling Grace. What a complete difference in style. smile
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#1500829 - 08/22/10 06:48 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Hey Beeboss, thanks for the nice words. I was just realizing that even articulation issues are all tied to having good time (at the microscopic level). I wish there are shortcuts.


Well the realization that the timing of the release of the notes is just as important os the moment when they are struck at least. Playing the left hand chord quietly and staccato can give the illusion of a crisp swing when playing the chords too long and loud gives the opposite effect for instance.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee


It also seems that working on something as hard as GS seems to cause more improvement than playing something simpler over and over. So this may be a regular development platform then for me.


We will have to disagree on this one. My view is that if one wants to improve say timing then all of the brain needs to be concentrated on just that, so this is best done on a very very simple form or just one chord. Then again one needs to stretch different aspects of our playing as well so I guess it is just about having a balanced schedule.

Look forward to falling grace.
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#1500900 - 08/22/10 11:14 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Beeboss, LOL. You're being too gentle. No need to mince words. I'll rephrase it for you
"Play that left chord softly and staccato so it gives you a crisp swing..."

This is a perennial weakness of mine and things for bringing it up. It just means, I keep neglecting LH practice on doing exactly this. But it was worse before because my LH was so underdeveloped.

As far as playing complex vs. simple, the issue I find is that when I do something simple, it sounds fine. The lapses in articulation happen during transitions and if I am too aware of what will follow next, the problem (the one I'm aware of) doesn't happen.

So now, I've approached it by causing the problem to occur by playing in the context of complexity. I record it. I hear an articulation issue. Typically it's a hesitation or indecision which then causes some fingering issue or unevenness. Then I go back and now repeat the line until it's solved. Thus in a way, I'm simplifying it in that context. It's tedious though since obviously the number of permutations and combinations of this approach is horrenduously large.

I've just started doing this recently because I'm not liking what I hear.

I wish there were shortcuts were someone can just tell me to do somethng like "Hanon #2 and #3 and the problem will be solved". smile If there is, let me know.



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#1500953 - 08/22/10 01:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Beeboss, LOL. You're being too gentle. No need to mince words. I'll rephrase it for you
"Play that left chord softly and staccato so it gives you a crisp swing..."




JW, sorry I didn't mean YOU needed to make your left hand soft and staccato, only that I had noticed that when I play it like that it sounds better.


Originally Posted By: jazzwee

As far as playing complex vs. simple, the issue I find is that when I do something simple, it sounds fine.



Maybe that means you are not paying close enough attention. I feel it is very very difficult even to play extremely simple things absolutely perfectly. Try it, play the simplest piece of Mozart perfectly - it is far from easy. Or a mid tempo blues in F could be the jazz equivalent.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee


I wish there were shortcuts were someone can just tell me to do somethng like "Hanon #2 and #3 and the problem will be solved". If there is, let me know.



There is no shortcut but more technique can help. Doing more rhythm exercises can help as well.
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#1501099 - 08/22/10 05:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Beeboss, I think you misunderstand me. I like you to be BRUTAL. I'm not going to learn when everyone says "nice job". I can hear for myself that it's not a nice job. Although yes, I know I get better each time. So no need to sugarcoat with me.

As far as "simple" and "paying attention", I understand what you're saying. But it's a matter, I suppose of what I'm working on. If I'm working on picking notes for a solo, it will probably be started slow as you say.

GS as you know is more of a problem of keeping up with the changes, so I guess it's a different exercise. It's not really a good platform for technique development.

I'm having more comfort as time goes by with the note picking part of the equation so it appears that most of the development is needed more on technique and rhythm.

What rhythm exercises do you mean? For technique, I guess my staple is still scales.
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#1501165 - 08/22/10 07:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee


What rhythm exercises do you mean? For technique, I guess my staple is still scales.


I try to do different ones all the time. Sometimes some slow pulse things, sometimes playing tunes in 5 and 7, sometimes tapping out cross rhythms, sometimes hand independence, soloing over an ostinato pattern maybe, or running different groupings of triplets over a sequence etc etc
I try to do some Hanon everyday for technique and lots of other different exercises, different ones, thirds, octaves, trills, strengthening for the weak fingers. etc Just the usual stuff. It's all good.
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#1501180 - 08/22/10 08:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Well your technique is finely honed like a sharp knife. I'm just wondering which has the best payback in time. My teacher has me doing an exercise with two stretched hands and alternating two fingers play legato. I hear it's a jazzy modification of something called a Rachmaninoff exercise, which I've never actually found anywhere. So this has helped me with the legato side.

The only rhythmic practice I've done aside from actual improvising is playing counter rhythms is scale practice. 1:2, 1:3, 1:4.

When I listened to the Charlap/Rosnes track, it really drew my attention to how far I sound from that. And how precise their rhythm is with every note and how precise they control their swing. I realize that a lot of jazz players play for decades and they still don't sound like that. Then it reminded me of the young Israeli boy that was swinging like a pro and so I realized it must be possible to learn. I'm just having to search for it by trial and error and that boy could hear it already.

Sometimes I hear I can do it for brief moments so it tells me that I just have to learn to keep it up. That's why I was working on articulation for a bit.
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#1501290 - 08/23/10 12:29 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Riddler Offline
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Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 628
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
...My teacher has me doing an exercise with two stretched hands and alternating two fingers play legato. I hear it's a jazzy modification of something called a Rachmaninoff exercise, which I've never actually found anywhere. So this has helped me with the legato side.


Jazzwee, FYI, Scot Ranney's book (Jazz Piano Notebook) includes a stretching excercise called the Rachmaninoff exercise. He says George Cables taught it to him. There was some discussion of it on LJP some time ago.

Ed
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My fingers are slow, but easily keep pace with my thoughts.


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#1501299 - 08/23/10 12:52 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
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Registered: 12/11/09
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Loc: Sydney
ha everything Beeboss writes must be brutalized, he is extra polite because he’s from Southern England – whereas Americans and ozzies tend to be more direct !
Beeboss, I found it interesting when you said that playing the left hand staccato helps contribute towards a swing-like sound. Does that mean that you play a LH chord ever so slightly shorter than the value of a whole note ?

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#1501308 - 08/23/10 01:14 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: knotty
Well Wizzie,

I bought one Bill Charlap, now how I am supposed to not buy all of the others ??



haha, I'd buy more Renee Rosnes albums, she's the better player!

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#1501313 - 08/23/10 01:20 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873

New thing I'm working on, playing inner voice leadings, ala Keith Jarrett! I notice he does it on ballads and slower songs. He doesn't play the entire chord at once, but plays the left bass note and right melody, then fills in the rest a split second later.

Listen to Over the Rainbow, Danny Boy, or any of his solo ballads.


I'm trying to figure out what he's doing on the intro to the Wind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1KPg8otfgE

First 20 secs, it's like staccato chords, alternating left and right hand. Very cool sound, anyone have ideas?

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#1501363 - 08/23/10 05:40 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
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Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: custard apple
ha everything Beeboss writes must be brutalized, he is extra polite because he’s from Southern England – whereas Americans and ozzies tend to be more direct !
Beeboss, I found it interesting when you said that playing the left hand staccato helps contribute towards a swing-like sound. Does that mean that you play a LH chord ever so slightly shorter than the value of a whole note ?



Custard.

I do try to be polite, but directness has a place as well ;-)

I have noticed that many people play the left hand too loud, too sustained and too often on the first beat of the bar, so I watch out for that and stop myself when I find myself doing it.
If its a medium up swing tune the LH can be very quiet and staccato so it just adds a bit of punctuation between the RH phrases. The shorter the chord the better it often sounds.
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#1501364 - 08/23/10 05:41 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
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Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee


The only rhythmic practice I've done aside from actual improvising is playing counter rhythms is scale practice. 1:2, 1:3, 1:4.




JW, I would strongly recommend you get familiar with tapping out out 2:3 and 3:4 crossrythms at different tempos. These are very important and it is impossible to play them on the piano if you can't tap them out first.
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#1501367 - 08/23/10 05:43 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
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Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz


I'm trying to figure out what he's doing on the intro to the Wind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1KPg8otfgE

First 20 secs, it's like staccato chords, alternating left and right hand. Very cool sound, anyone have ideas?


Wiz, yes its alternating LH and RH stuff. I practise lots of that stuff, paradiddles between the hands and other drumming ideas.The piano is a percussion instrument so treating it as one can be very rewarding.
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#1501397 - 08/23/10 07:18 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
custard apple Offline
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Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Hi Dave B
Where for you are the interesting places to come in on the LH e.g. on the 2nd/3rd beat of the measure ?
In general, would you say LH shorter sounding and RH legato ?

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#1501424 - 08/23/10 08:22 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: uk south
Hi Custard,
The articulation you use depends on how you want it to sound, probably you are going to use a more legato touch on a ballad than on an up tempo swinger.
Practice playing the left hand chord on each quaver of the bar, then when actually playing you can bring it in wherever you want. Often on swing tunes the LH is best on the off beats.
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#1501461 - 08/23/10 10:03 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: beeboss


Wiz, yes its alternating LH and RH stuff. I practise lots of that stuff, paradiddles between the hands and other drumming ideas.The piano is a percussion instrument so treating it as one can be very rewarding.



I never even heard of the word "paradiddles" before! How would you go about practicing this?

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#1501487 - 08/23/10 10:49 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: jazzwee


The only rhythmic practice I've done aside from actual improvising is playing counter rhythms is scale practice. 1:2, 1:3, 1:4.




JW, I would strongly recommend you get familiar with tapping out out 2:3 and 3:4 crossrythms at different tempos. These are very important and it is impossible to play them on the piano if you can't tap them out first.



Luckily, I am very well practiced on 2:3 Beeboss. I don't practice it as a scale though. If I played Windows, I'd have to use it frequently. When I played Very Early, I recall my LH was stuck on 2 (dotted quarters). Yeah I do remember learning this by tapping it out.

3:4 or 4:3 is still difficult. I can see how it's important. My difficulty with it is in changing rhythm and coming back to it. Especially in ballads.

I really love this specific advice. Also your advice on LH comping was so specific that it gives me something precise to practice.

Thanks!
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#1501491 - 08/23/10 10:56 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Loc: So. California
Beeboss, on LH comping, typically I would play the LH staccatto on quiet moments, but I noticed that if it doesn't land exactly on the downbeat/offbeat it sounds really awful. This is really my particular problem with the LH. Harder to practice since I have to be so conscious of it with the RH doing something so complex. This is often why I just simplify and play footballs on the LH.

So based on your approach, it would have to practice comping in precise time while simplifying the RH. So it get's to be in the subconscious first.
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#1501496 - 08/23/10 11:02 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz

I never even heard of the word "paradiddles" before! How would you go about practicing this?


Paradiddle is a drummers rhythm, it goes L R L L R L R R

or in reverse - R L R R L R L L.
The piano is a percussion instrument so just imagine that each hand is a drumstick and go
L R L L R L R R.
Any notes or chord will do.
There are lots of different rhythms to try, but getting used to the approach is the most important thing, the idea of alternating the hands.
Also try L R R and R L L
This fits easiest over a straight 1/8 groove but you can do it in triplets over a swing rhythm if you like.
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