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#1924044 - 07/08/12 01:09 AM What think technicians about of max's temperament?
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
What think technicians about of max's temperament?
Dear technicians, please write everything you hear. I'm ready for constructive criticism, I'm do not lose a hopes learn how to tuning the piano. Sincerely, Max
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeU5J55PN-E
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A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1924083 - 07/08/12 06:11 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Johnkie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 688
Loc: England
Temperament ? How could anyone possibly judge from this video. The temperament consists of the initial octave tuned, from which all the other notes link. You only show yourself trying to clean up a unison.

The piano sounds horrible, although perhaps a little better than on previous videos. If you want to be taken seriously, I would concentrate on tuning an acceptable temperament with clean unisons.

You should be well aware that there are others on this forum that would also like to better their tuning skills, and are making serious efforts to improve, by taking advantage of help and coaching. I see little evidence that you want anything more than notoriety, rather than improve your work.

On a positive note though .... you do use a hoover very well wink
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#1924093 - 07/08/12 06:49 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Johnkie]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Johnkie


On a positive note though .... you do use a hoover very well wink

Why you wasting your precious time when they wrote these lines,Johnkie?
Your opinion is absolutely indifferent to me. I ask you don't continue to put stupid jokes here. Sincerely, maxim_tuner
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1924097 - 07/08/12 06:59 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 565
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Max, can you please tell the young lady that she plays very very well, truly. She really deserves a good and well tuned piano.

As far as the temperament is concerned, it cannot be judged from this video. The temperament is best judged by listening to a chromatic sequence of intervals (major 3rds, and 5th) in the middle of the piano, not a complex piano piece, and the unisons have to be very clean. The temperament starts with an octave in the middle of the piano and establishes the relationship between each of the 12 notes. Normally they are tuned to equal semitones and is called equal temperament, or ET. You must first explain to us how you go about tuning these first 12 notes. You remember Alex from Russia began by tuning the temperament in the middle of the piano using 5th and other intervals. Is this what you do as well? If you can post a video of a slowly rising chromatic sequence of major 3rds and then 5ths in the middle of the piano, and explain how you tuned them, then somebody may be better able to judge you and begin to provide advice.

Also, good to see you using the new tuning lever. However, it looks very uncontrolled the way you are holding it. Many tuners point the handle more vertically and rest their elbow on the piano top for support.
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#1924102 - 07/08/12 07:29 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Chris Leslie]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Max, can you please tell the young lady that she plays very very well, truly. She really deserves a good and well tuned piano.

What you write,Chris Leslie I think understand and the unisons and fifths and fourths sequences. I'm trying to do the ET. And yet, this piano really sounds awful, like wrotе Mr Jonkey? Does a piano not sound in Chopin? I will definitely give a girl your good wishes. It is really very sensual play Chopin (Polish autumn woods after a rain). She flys in clouds far from a Earth . Thank you for your criticism
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A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1924103 - 07/08/12 07:30 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Johnkie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 688
Loc: England
Max:

With the greatest respect .... it was you that asked for comments on your temperament, and I gave my honest opinion - So don't get shirty .... try getting better at what you do !
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#1924104 - 07/08/12 07:31 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Chris Leslie]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Is this what you do as well? If you can post a video of a slowly rising chromatic sequence of major 3rds and then 5ths in the middle of the piano, and explain how you tuned them, then somebody may be better able to judge you and begin to provide advice.

I'll try to make this video
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1924110 - 07/08/12 07:46 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
pianolive Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 325
Loc: Europe
Hello Max,

Like said here, it is not possible to judge the temperament and tuning of the piano from the video. All we can hear is that the piano needs tuning - in both versions.
You should start training to set a temperament and stop picking the strings! As you have no teacher to sit by you and show step by step, this is what I think you could try:
Strip mute the piano from E3 - A4 so you tune only the middle strings. At the beginning this will make it easier for you to tune temperament intervals.
Follow this guide from Bill Bremmer(There are two ways):
http://www.billbremmer.com/articles/midrange_piano_tuning.pdf

Work concentraded on this and come back if you have questions on temperament tuning.
You have to learn this the right way Max and work hard. There are no short cuts.

If you have a laptop, you could download a trial version of the Tune-Lab software and use it to set a temperament, which you could use as a "teacher" or guide. Use it to set the temperament in the octave E3 -> E4. In that octave it is easy to hear the beats of the intervals.

You must learn it right Max. There are no other ways!
When you can produce a tempered octave, you finish the tuning by tuning chromatically up and down.


Edited by pianolive (07/08/12 01:03 PM)

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#1924119 - 07/08/12 08:10 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: pianolive]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: pianolive
All we can hear is that the piano needs tuning - in both versions.

I'm very sorry that temperament not turned out again...
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1924191 - 07/08/12 11:57 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
pianolive Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 325
Loc: Europe
Don´t be sorry Max! To set an ET temperament of high quality is not easy, it does take time to become experienced. Some people learn faster and some need a little more time. A musical ear is not the most important thing in learning, though it can be helpfull. The most important thing is concentration and listening to hear and set the temp interval beats.
You must follow a systematical procedure when you learn to set a temperament. If you do that, you will learn it! The temperament is the base for the the whole tuning.
Try to do as I wrote in the other post, and when you get into problems and have questions about things in your temperament exercise, put your questions here on the board. If you are working in the systematic way on the temperament, your problems or questions will probably be more specific. That will make it more easy to understand your problems and give you specific answers. I am sure a lot of good people on the board will try to help you out!
Ignore people who just try to make fun of you or call you names, it is just a sign of low self-esteem.


Edited by pianolive (07/08/12 01:17 PM)

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#1924895 - 07/10/12 12:57 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: pianolive]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: pianolive

Ignore people who just try to make fun of you or call you names, it is just a sign of low self-esteem.

Thank you,pianolive for your words of support. I hope that if I shall regularly work over temperament to get a positive end result. "The road by walking"
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1926172 - 07/13/12 06:52 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Adept maxim_tuner’s from Russia (My first tuning. maxim_tuner's method)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsrI7TvxwnM&feature=plcp
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1926365 - 07/13/12 04:27 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Maxim, see if you can find a really old, cheap, laptop computer and download the free version of TuneLab on it to help coach you with your tunings. Here in Canada a person can get one of these old laptops for $50. Sometimes people give them away for free when they get a new computer.

Either way, while you are still improving your tuning skills, I suggest you label your temperaments "Unequal Temperaments". After 1 day, you can technically call it a "Historic Temperament" if you wish, since it now resides in the past. With the thousands of temperaments in existance, there is an extremely high likelyhood that it matches one of them anyways. This will help keep techs from making stupid comments about it.

Either way, if you miss an interval, or end up with some 5th's that beats like a subway train, mention to the customer that these are unavoidable "wolf tones". Apparantly, pianists don't mind this too much once they learn how to play around them.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1928799 - 07/18/12 11:14 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Emmery

Either way, while you are still improving your tuning skills, I suggest you label your temperaments "Unequal Temperaments". After 1 day, you can technically call it a "Historic Temperament" if you wish, since it now resides in the past. With the thousands of temperaments in existance, there is an extremely high likelyhood that it matches one of them anyways. This will help keep techs from making stupid comments about it.


Emmery,thank you for your appreciation of my temperament. If it is "unequal& historic" that is, a vector for me to correct the situation in future.
How I do it now:
1 I get a note to tune in A = 440 in the choir to all gave a sound. Camerton (guitar tuner) fixes it
I build up from ( A = 440)
2 A quart of up (D), and also check it's choir
3 From (Re) get a fifth down (G)
4 When I made only one octave this method so checking at intervals (octave, fifth, fourth, major and minor third), the entire range of 88 keys
5 Diskant check only hears octave
When I made this, I play a mixture of 88 (large and small thirds) through the octave. If something I do not like looking at the testimony of a digital tuner.
Here is a medieval primitive technology with a drops digital . My clients are people do not have large pritenzy for me .

Still study the correct classical temperament is necessary. I will try to
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1928884 - 07/19/12 05:02 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Max, do you have a long length of felt that you can use? Like this



This will mute the outer strings so only the middle string will sound. Without it you cannot learn to tune the temperament properly, as the unisons (the 'choir' I think you have called it) mask the sound of the intervals.
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

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#1928906 - 07/19/12 06:44 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7264
Loc: France
Nice color ! always raise the dampers when inserting the mute where the felts are W or V shaped.

Nice picture !

Plucking the string gioves a differnt pitch than playing, because it makes more partials ring, the final pitch heard is different.

So one must play the notes while tuning
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1928916 - 07/19/12 07:21 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Phil D]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Phil D
Max, do you have a long length of felt that you can use? Like this
This will mute the outer strings so only the middle string will sound. Without it you cannot learn to tune the temperament properly, as the unisons (the 'choir' I think you have called it) mask the sound of the intervals.

Phil D,I know and understand it how use the mute tape to tuning . Perhaps it is convenient and correct. Unison (chorus) better listening and this is probably saves time. As I digress to the plucking and listening to the harmonic intervals. However, the "habit is second nature," I am now very hard to give up plucking. I put in a felt stub between the strings, when I work with ( pianolive's) hammer . Currently, the main task, which I put to myself is to achieve the correct unisons and compliance pure harmony intervals between them. So far is not very good I have
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1928919 - 07/19/12 07:27 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7264
Loc: France
Yes it is difficult to stop plucking, but necessary.

You will discover that the hand that play the note is participating to the tuning, it move the string, also you feel the hammer impacting the string with the hand that play .

strip mute is really good,

you also can make individual mutes with leather (an old belt, cut in 18 mmx 180 mm, moistened and hammered to make it thin on the ends)

the tuners I worked with did not use rubber mutes or felt strips 35 years ago, but mutes made of hammer felt or those leather strips.



Edited by Kamin (07/19/12 07:31 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1928924 - 07/19/12 07:39 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Plucking the string gioves a differnt pitch than playing, because it makes more partials ring, the final pitch heard is different.

Kamin, you are right "because it makes more partials ring, the final pitch heard is different.." In the end tuning, I play on the forte with a strong blow the finger on a keys. Plucking, I had use only for the initial tuning the right tone (when 3 string had between itself sound a pour). I had try killed accordeon's sound. Sometimes this technique and apply now
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1928941 - 07/19/12 08:11 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7264
Loc: France
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually , then when they have a little habit with the hammer they begin to earn to tune with the keys.

in the factory they are 'chipping' pianos with new strings to put them at pitch
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Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1928953 - 07/19/12 08:44 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually

Max wants to forget and throw away his life "a plectrum with rope". Now he beginning tuner-student yet
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1928998 - 07/19/12 10:28 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]
Gregor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 433
Loc: Münster, Germany
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.
_________________________
piano tech - tuner - dealer
Münster, Germany
www.weldert.de

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#1929002 - 07/19/12 10:36 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7264
Loc: France
Gregor, first lessons with chipping, and chippers in factory before learning tuning, just to get some feel with the hammer.

It is not the same actually probably.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1929059 - 07/19/12 01:03 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Gregor]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Gregor,thank you for a attention and your replic. My problem is that the part it may seem that I do not want and can not build the unisons so I have bad ears. But I work with very oldest upright piano. Pins refuse to keep the desired position in a bush and a hole of pinblock. And I have need little to overstate the desired tone in unison. So in my final temperament a human can to feel some accordion's sounding in unison (incoordination). I can assure you that after one or two visits and fix it's sound better
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1929063 - 07/19/12 01:08 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Gregor]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


chipping after restringing,

in Russian, this operation is called "tsvikovschik" (цвиковщик)
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1929117 - 07/19/12 02:27 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Gregor]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Sometimes us tuners need to resort to plucking and I carry a guitar pick for such occasions. Don't resort to it too often I might add. If a hammer misses a string and the customer refuses to repair it, I will still pluck tune it to get the string up to tension and in reasonable tune. On some old pianos the highest notes can get so faint, a pluck can produce a louder tone in noisy environments or a longer sustain for tuning purposes.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1929134 - 07/19/12 02:55 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Sometimes us tuners need to resort to plucking and I carry a guitar pick for such occasions. Don't resort to it too often I might add. If a hammer misses a string and the customer refuses to repair it, I will still pluck tune it to get the string up to tension and in reasonable tune. On some old pianos the highest notes can get so faint, a pluck can produce a louder tone in noisy environments or a longer sustain for tuning purposes.

This is very true. This could have written only a practicing piano's tuner. Sometimes in practice, when the use of a plectrum is inevitable. Bravo, you have explained them very clearly.
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1929136 - 07/19/12 03:07 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7264
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Gregor, My problem is that the part it may seem that I do not want and can not build the unisons so I have bad ears. But I work with very oldest upright piano. Pins refuse to keep the desired position in a bush and a hole of pinblock.


Max I dont believe you have bad ears, but they are twisted, you are not used to listen for the good part of tone.

FOr the pins that dont stay put, try to work with the hammer very very slowly on those notes, if the pin does not grip when pushed back a little, go back and do again,
once, twice, 3, 4 times, after 3 or 4 times the grip will raise.

Think that the string have to hold the pin in its position, you don't need to push on the pin really, try to turn exactly in rotational plane, but with the real tuning hammer (you cannot turn slowly enough with the T hammer)

THere you need the energy provided by the playing hand to send strokes to the pin so it find its bed. The only necessity is that the bottom of the pin have yet a little grip.

On an old piano with no pin hold, you make the pin "float " in the hole while you fight the string tension with the hammer, the pin is just in the middle, when you release the tension it tend to go to its place naturally.

That is why it is very important to learn to respect the rotational plane of the pin, so not to add wear or compress the hole.

Learn to do that at any pitch (but with enough torque coming from the wire, then focus on tuning 2 strings together.)

To me a piano at 415 Hz is less easy to set the pin than one at 435.
The wire force is pushing the pin out of its rotational plane, it can compensate for a lot of wear.

Manipulating the pin again an again with the method I give you is providing some grip, that is what I noticed anyway (the opposite of what we think generally )




Edited by Kamin (07/19/12 03:18 PM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1929140 - 07/19/12 03:15 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7264
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Sometimes us tuners need to resort to plucking and I carry a guitar pick for such occasions. Don't resort to it too often I might add. If a hammer misses a string and the customer refuses to repair it, I will still pluck tune it to get the string up to tension and in reasonable tune. On some old pianos the highest notes can get so faint, a pluck can produce a louder tone in noisy environments or a longer sustain for tuning purposes.


Sure, I also carry some finger nails for that use wink
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1929141 - 07/19/12 03:23 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Gregor, My problem is that the part it may seem that I do not want and can not build the unisons so I have bad ears. But I work with very oldest upright piano. Pins refuse to keep the desired position in a bush and a hole of pinblock.



On an old piano with no pin hold, you make the pin "float " in the hole while you fight the string tension with the hammer, the pin is just in the middle, when you release the tension it tend to go to its place naturally.

That is why it is very important to learn to respect the rotational plane of the pin, so not to add wear or compress the hole.

Learn to do that at any pitch (but with enough torque coming from the wire, then focus on tuning 2 strings together.)

Thank Isaac,it's very need words for me
Regards


Edited by Maximillyan (07/19/12 03:24 PM)
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A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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