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Very interesting riverrun. In typical swing, the jazz pianist shoots for a sweet spot ahead of the last note in the triplet. Otherwise it sounds hokey and exaggerated. Of course this is tempo specific and I assume it would also for the drummer (simplified uptempo).

My theory of the way Mehldau plays is that by starting phrases right at some position near the offbeat, and subsequent notes are played as straight eighths, you get that offbeat quality you're talking about. Note the next eighth will sound slightly dragged.

Unfortunately, this is pretty hard to practice without a rhythm section. Nothing to play against.

Some of this I hear but I'm not technically able to execute yet...

This is really illuminating. I've never heard of finer subdivisions like quintiplets before. You'd probably have to play really slow to appreciate this.

Hi riverrun, you beat me to it. Have been busy somewhere else on the forum getting info on my next keyboard to buy. So now you guys have another jazz drummer here. I also play afrocuban-latin. Mainly congas. I played bebop in those long gone days when bop was the big thing, and blues march and Moanin was the latest news, and Elvin Jones was the latest sensation. Very interesting discussion here on Jazz drumming, but enough for now. I will be back.
cubop

Ok, I have some time and I'm listening to your Beatrice as I type this. Overall I like what I hear.
It's interesting how you gravitate towards triplet figures in this piece because I do the same for some reason, but I don't think there's anything in the melody that suggests triplets, is there?

I also hear standard voicings with no extentions either in the chords or the solos, is that correct? Not that that is a bad thing, but just an observation. I also hear some interesting chord on the first Dm of the progression, but its not Dm. Just wondering maybe you're subbing a Dsus there? In any case I like it. I do miss the Dmaj you had in the other version though.

What I'd suggest to think about would be (contrary what JW might like) would be more 16th note runs. You do it twice or three times, and I was wanting more of them. I also heard some quints in there which was quite cool. Also, I think this piece lends itself well to ostinato/hemiola/polyrhythmic type stuff that straddles the chord changes, and it seems that you think about going there, but don't.

I'll have a listen to your Don't know what love is in a bit. Keep up the great work, Chris!

Hi Scott,

Just listening to your takes as I type this.

Yes, I think I agree that the third take is the best of the three, only because it seems that you've worked out some solo ideas on this one. I noticed that your heads are identical in all three. Is this a common way for you to approach a tune in that you work out specific voicings and riffs/runs that you'll do each time you play the piece? I like what I hear, but I guess I take a different approach than you in this regard in that each time I play a piece it will be different each time, but may retain one or two chords or ideas that I like. In any case I really like your voicings and you use your massive reach quite well (Gb, Gb, Bb all in LH-- nice).

As for your solo ideas, I think you've got some great ideas happening. I hear that you, like Chris have a triplet feel to the piece as well.

What I hear in your playing is lots of patterned based playing and Monk-like syncopation. Very cool stuff. The patterns that are 5 notes in length were especially nice. That kind of playing is something I gravitate towards as well. As well, you have a nice sense of melody. One thing that struck me though was that your melodies often spanned an octave and a half. If you were soloing longer I think I'd like to hear 'small scale' stuff where you only play within a 5th or so, and see what choices are there.

It's interesting that you suggested your version is more up-beat than Chris's, but they are actually very close in tempo, at least if you listen to the head of yours compared to the end solos of his.

JW mentioned that your LH seemed heavy and perhaps getting in the way of the RH. I don't feel that at all. I tend to like more interplay between the hands, and I feel that what your LH does drives the RH, and compliments it.

On your third take during your solos I especially liked the sustained part where you're paying attention to joining the notes rather than using the LH as percussion. This was a good thing to throw in there, and it served you well at that point I think.

So, cool, cool, cool. I'll have to post my version soon after being inspired by you and Chris.

Just listening to your Don't Know what Love is. I think I know why your Beatrice and this tune are heavy with triplets--your bass player loves them! He's doing a great job btw! His timing, tuning and ideas are really nice.

So, you guys really seem pretty comfortable with each other. Some nice moments in this tune. I'm wondering though, were you trying to play more abstract ideas on this one? I ask because it seems that you're experimenting with things here rather than performing, especially when you get a chorus or two into the tune. What I'm hearing is your lines are outlining interesting intervals that don't seem conventional. Not to say that it is bad or anything, but just for some reason it seems that you are more comfortable with some other pieces I've heard you play. That being said, I think there is always merit in stretching while you play with others. Risks are always worth taking unless you're on a paid gig, no?

Some things that struck me too: you seem to use slightly different changes than I'm used to. Did you sub anything in the first four bars?

Overall, I like your playing, and listening to you always gives me some ideas that I'll probably try in my playing too. Nice stuff!

Please pass on your thoughts cubob. Glad to know another lurking jazzer.

As I said, it's a style thing and different people will have different opinions. I was just taught to make it clear which notes to bring out as primary and which are supportive.

So I strive to do that though often not successful.

I do believe though that in general, achieving dynamic layers in jazz creates another layer of interest and it's simple enough to achieve.

Thanks jazzwee! My approach has a little more "kick" than Chris's I guess. I agree that the left hand is a little heavy. The rhythms though, are intentional to set the groove as you said. This kind of approach is still relatively new for me. Plus, I'm just still not very comfortable with the tune, so I get a little heavy handed


The two handed run on the Bb major is just a pattern based on 5ths and 4ths. The LH plays Bb-F-Bb then the RH plays G-D-G, and then the same thing again higher.

Thanks scep! I guess the tempo is about the same as Chris's. I was thinking of a little more of a rhythmic approach, with punches and syncopation, etc.

I do usually work out a specific arrangement for the head of a tune. I used to play heads differently each time, but I found that I would lose the melody too often trying to execute unfamiliar stuff. Of course I used to think you had to play it different each time, but then I realized alot of players don't, at least not for the most part anyway.

Your comment about my lines being in the span of an octave and a half is interesting. Hadn't noticed that! Guess I'll try to get some more variety in there.

Looking forward to hearing what you've got!

Scep, your comments about the distribution of a phrase is very interesting.

Something that I'm becoming conscious of (but forget frequently) is to plan when I stay in place or move around a lot like tension and release.

An exercise I've been trying to do is to stay in place to raise tension, and then on the last phrase, use a very long multioctave line. I hear a lot of players do it and it sounds good.

Gives the solo a shape profile. When I listen to my playing, I think I'm all over the place and it gets monotonous.

Remind me if I forget to do this.

I did get my jam session recordings and they sound awful to my ears. It is obvious that my performance with my iRealBook app is much better than in a live scenario where my fingers direct where I go. I hear cliche movements that indicate I wasn't using my ear (it's hard for me to hear over the guitar but that's another story).

And my swing is lost and I don't know if it's the nature of the drumming style that impacts on my lines or just the tempo. Overall, I'm so disappointed in myself that I'm in retrench mode right now.

I wouldn't blame the drummer per se, but rather the situation wherein you are unable to be comfortable with what he and the bass player are doing (or not doing). With the app you're guaranteed a certain groove, whether it is likable or not, and you are accustomed to playing in it. There IS a groove with your band, but it may be hard to figure out. Sometimes the groove is so big or inconsistent that what may be needed is another player (you) to bring it tighter.
I've had that problem a lot when I audition new bassists or drummers because it feels like I can't do anything interesting, and for some reason I'll push the beat to compensate for the lack of solidity between the bass and drums. This of course only makes things worse and the tempo speeds up to catch up to me.

What would be really worthwhile would be to find strategies to play your best while in less than optimal situations. It's a very difficult task.

Does anyone have any particular ideas on how to achieve this?

Jazzwee, don't be discouraged . I've often felt this way, especially when I'm trying too hard to listen. I get distracted and can't find the groove. I find that just listening only enough to stay in the game works best. Although when doing this it often feels like I'm not really connecting, I've listened back to recordings during such instances and been surprised that things were more connected than I thought. Of course this may have had more to do with the other players... not really sure. Speaking of which, do you think any of the other players might have been distracted or trying to do something different than their usual approach, cause that'll throw everything off too. I'd still like to hear the recording from your jam session if you can stand to share it!

I'm still trying to get a better recording of My Favorite Things. I think this one is pretty good. I'm pretty happy with the direction in the improv (for me at this stage anyway), and I think the timing and control are about the best I can do. What do you guys think? I've probably recorded it about a dozen times over the last week or so! Probably being too picky

http://www.box.net/shared/3uv5sxfren

Just a thought-- I like your arrangement for the most part, except that the rhythm in the melody for the 1st 16 bars of the head sounds like you aren't considering the words of the original tune. Now this may not matter if you suggest that it's not meant to be sung, but sometimes its good to keep in consideration that certain aspects of a melody may want to be retained, or at least considered before venturing off. What I mean is that if you sung the words with your rhythm it would sound like someone trying to speak English as a second language in that the cadences and natural rhythms of the words are not accurate. So, to my ears it sounds a bit funny with the 1 + 3 as the melodic riff. This is just mimicking the LH, no? Have you experimented with having the melody independent of the LH rhythm?

All that being said, your soloing sounds solid. You're leaving nice spaces between your lines and you're executing some nice patterned stuff too. Your tempo stays pretty good too, but as you probably know it does speed up a bit and then stays there. I wish I knew how not to speed up myself so as to suggest something to you, but, alas, it's a problem for me too.

This is a piece that I may also post as well because I had some similar thoughts of ostinato (well, sort of). And for some reason I like playing this piece in 5/4. This of course abandons the word structure all together so it makes what I said above seemingly contradictory, but, well, it's not, but I'm pretty lazy when it comes to explaining things so...

Scep, all good points and all well taken. I've always felt that speeding up is an issue with anxiety and lack of control. It seems that when I'm not struggling with those problems, I can hold the time steady. The more uncomfortable I am, the more I tend to rush.

Crikey! Amazing how this topic is starting to cook.

I really appreciate everyone's comments and inputs.

Interesting, I've no idea why I gravitate towards triplets here, I just do. Maybe it's because I hear a folk-tune quality and not a jazz-tune . . .


Sort of standard vocicings, I do tend to cluster chords, ex: Dm: LH: fgade (5 on f, 4 on g, 3 on a, 1 on d and e


More 16ths . . ? Ok, next time, promise It depends on how I get "going" as I never plan (or want to plan) how I'm going to either play the head or do the solo. I want to let the music inspire in the moment, so that what comes out is true to the moment. Which is why I don't like rehearsing, rather "let's play" - which is not easy, and you need to know your instrument as well as the chord structure of the tunes.

Nice Scott! Really nice. I also dig that Bb-thinge. I like your orchestral approach, there's some great voicings in your playing.

Thanks, I'll tell him, he's only been playing the acoustic for 4 months.

Triplets again . . . oh well.
Maybe it's my 6-over-4 from playing a coule of years in an African band (2 Swedes, 1 Scottish (ahh triplets, my Scottish heritage! bring on the reels . . ) and 5 from different African countries).

Yes we are, and that is definitely a key, one thing is that it's important to allow each other to make mistakes, instead of bitchin and moanin, back each other up.

Great observation, I haven't thought of that.
Well, the idea is to play risks AND get paid.


No that I know of, I play the chords: Fm7, Db7sus C7alt, Fm C7alt, Db7sus

Cubop, Great to meet you, and glad you decided to post. I saw Elvin many times at the Jazz Cafe in London, always a great show!

I've been thinking about ways of introducing some rhythmic concepts. I felt the best place to start was with what I call the Rhythm Scale. Since time feel fundamentally comes from how we internally subdivide, I think it's useful to understand this 'scale'. Below our two PDF's I made via Sibelius to describe the fundamentals.

Rhythm scale over one beat:

http://www.box.net/shared/stdko7mzbx

Rhythm scale over two beats:

http://www.box.net/shared/muymgx0bkq

The second one is what you would hear if you played every other beat of the first one (a drummer might play through this scale using the sticking of a single stroke roll: RLRLRL. If they accented only the RIGHTS you would get the subdivision of the second scale).

It is really useful to be able to clap, sing, play through this whilst accent the quarter. One way of practicing this that is really effective is to move between two adjacent lines: So from eights to triplets and back over one bar.

The quintuplets and sevens are probably the least common, but with practice you can slip between sixteenths and quintuplets very easily. I found this very useful as a means of developing my sense of time.

Once you have some comfort playing a bar of each subdivision, preferably with a metronome (try 40 BPM or slower). Then you can try half bars.

Example: Two groups of triplets, then two groups of sixteenths.

Once comfortable with that try changing every quarter note:

Example: A group of sixteenths(4)sixteenths, then a single quintuplet. Always accenting the quarter, and keeping the subdivisions controlled and accurate.

The next stage will be taking what I call partials through this Rhythm Scale. This is when the music starts.

If you take a four note pattern you can take it through each level of subdivision. I am going to prepare some .pdfs to describe this process. It's an excellent way of practicing things. Not dissimilar to taking something through every key, but this is in time.

From this fundamental place we can look at odd groupings.

A simple quick example for now:

If we take one bar of triplets it can be subdivided in different ways:

For example
4 groups of 3
or 3 groups of 4

However it can also be subdivided as one group of 5 and one group of 7 (5+7=12).

If we extend this to two bars, we can create really interesting over-the bar line groupings:

5757
5577
7755
5775
7557 for example.

or

55554 (4 groups of 5=20, plus 4 at the end = 24)
45555 (an inversion of the idea)

Of course the key to doing this is being able to feel the pulse (the quarter) whilst accenting in odd groupings.

A common approach with five is to accent the 1 and 3 of each group. You can roll that phrase over two bars as 4 groups of five (in triplet time)[20 beats], and one group of four:




(I will describe this in more detail with a proper score when I get it finished).

Hope this is some interest to you guys!

riverrun, I'm sure I will learn a lot from this. But may need multiple readings to understand.

The over the barline stuff is intriguing. Very Brad Mehldau-ish if applied on the piano.

I worked on some of this for short moments (a lesson here and there) but it's really tough to apply. It has to be worked out in advance.

You write very well BTW. This is like a book. Please continue with it and don't mind my slowness in comprehending.

If I just master rhythm in a deeper way, it will solve my rhythmic feel problem at the jams.

I got a DVD recently from Mike Longo whih talked about exercises to implement these kind of rhythms. It was fantastic demoed in the DVD. However - THE ACTUAL EXERCISES WERE TO COME IN A NEW DVD! This just pissed me off. Basically DVD 1 was a teaser.

I still don't know how to apply it. But I know it's connected to what your are saying. If rhythms are built in our phrases, it apparently will be true Bebop. Mike Longo learned this from Dizzy Gillespie. And yes the DVD talked about thinking in Fives, Sevens, etc. Beyond the usual thinking of just quarters, 8ths, 16ths and triplet 16ths.

Maybe you'll substitute for Mike Longo! If you google his teasers on Youtube (or maybe I'll find it later), you can tell us how we can think rhythmically in our playing based on what he's doing.