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Joined: Aug 2009
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I think I'm glad to see that you think math doesn't come into it -because though I'm not great in math, (and not a brilliant musician) I've never thought of music as being a mathmatical exercise. Sure we have notes which are fractions of other notes, but my brain doesn't look at them that way.
In my previous post I was perhaps not articulate enough in expressing that I was wondering about that connection - does it exist for most people or not? I feel not, for myself, and you don't feel it. Edward does.
Do, in fact, a large number of people feel that their math abilities are reflected in their piano efforts? Or is there a large number who feel strongly that there is no correlation. I don't think that I look at note lengths as fractions. For example, in a measure with 3/4 time, which might have [sixteenth-note, sixteenth, eighth, quarter, quarter, eighth, eighth] I wouldn't think [1/16, 1/16, 1/8, 1/4, 1/4, 1/8, 1/8]. Rather, I would just count [(1) (e) (&a) (2e&a) (3e&a) (4e) (&a)]. Edwardian, maybe your could try not even thinking about fractions. Just think about each type of note as how many syllables you count for each it. Another approach that I use for difficult rhythms, is that I like to visualize where they fall in time. So I might draw out a timeline of a measure, and sketch out where notes come in, and how long they last. Here's an example from a Haydn piece in 3/4 time that I was working on last year. This shows four measures from the piece. Each row is one measure, with RH rhythm on top and LH on the bottom. X represents a rest, a dot is the start of a note, and the line indicates how long to hold it. Probably doesn't make sense to anyone except me, but maybe you get the general idea. ![[Linked Image]](http:/Uploads/files/counting_rhythms2.gif)
Mary Bee Current mantra: Play outside the box.![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/moyd14/MOYD_01234.gif) ![[Linked Image]](https://pianoworld.com/ABF_Medals/medal_c_2.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](https://pianoworld.com/ABF_Medals/20xmedals.jpg) XVI-XXXVI
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MaryBee - Your sketch is brilliant. I don't know the piece, but I see what you are getting at.
I think it would take a long time to work this out - but as you do it, you really "set" what is going on into your brain cells.
At the moment I haven't anything complicated enough to warrant using this technique, but I can see that I might borrow your strategy sometime in the future!
Thanks for sharing this!
![[Linked Image]](https://forum.pianoworld.com//gallery/42/medium/12291.png) 18 ABF Recitals, Order of the Red Dot European Piano Parties - Brussels, Lisbon, Lucern, Milan, Malaga, St. Goar Themed recitals: Grieg and Great American Songbook
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I became mentally paralyzed if asked to calculate anything at all. Oh yes, know that one- that is my problem. Math and music go hand in hand, true.......and yet I rarely had (or have) problems with the beats in a bar....
So I wonder about this. Is it because I played for five years in high school in the band? Were the note values simply engraved in my brain at that time, in such a way that I never really considered them as fractions? Was it because I worked in that group and even when I couldn't keep up, I could read the music and hear what the others were doing? It could well be Cas. I think a penny might have dropped for me just before. Had my lesson this afternoon and my violin playing friend came over after for awhile and I was discussing beats and my probs etc and she and I were talking about pop being much easier music than pop and she mentioned drums...could it be cos there are no drums banging out a beat in Classical it makes it harder? I mean think of a Chopin Ballade compared with playing Imagine!! I have nothing to help me play along a beat with piano music do I? Even the simpllified versions. Edward, I too was reading pretty heavy duty texts at an early age, but with the band, I was also reading pretty complicated music within 4 years too.
Must be cos you started as a child then. In some ways reading text is harder than reading music --- in English at least. Think about it ..... when you see a note, the value of the note is what it is. At the most, you have to remember the key signature to make it sharp or flat. If there are changes mid-stream,they are flagged with a symbol. Reading English, you have to read not just a word, but the words around it to get the context so that you know what the word is.
If I write "He was a mean man." Your first thought is he was cruel. If I then right "He wouldn't give a penny to a beggar" then you might think "miserly" rather than "cruel". Or if you see the word LIVE.... is it live=he lives here, or live= live music? Or how about "I read the book" Is it the past pronounced "red" or present pronounced "reed"? There is a huge amount of interpretating going on as we read text, to which we are, for the most part, oblivious. I see what you mean but reading a text is still easy peasy for me. Even if we are just reading the word red and not adding any meaning to it it is easier than working out a note - it's name and value on a stave. For those who really have difficulty sorting out the value of the notes, what about trying to read your scores while listening to the pieces being played?
This would work for your own pieces (so many can be found on youtube!) --- or for more sophisticated classical ensemble pieces. It is pretty easy to get musical scores from the internet and just sit and listen, and read. Maybe that could be an extra training idea? A good idea- I've done that for pop music and looking at chords. I can only imagine how frustrating it is to struggle with this part of learning your music. I truly don't remember going through this phase. Maybe children don't struggle with it then? Thanks for the encouragement with the rest of the post!
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Joined: Jul 2011
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The point on comparing how we learn reading (english) to reading (music) that I was trying to make is that before we even begin learning to read we have to learn to speak. It takes an infant years just to get to the point where she can formulate words and sentences well enough to begin learning to read. I believe the beginning years of trying to learn to play an instrument are analagous....though obviously we are also simultaneously trying to learn to read music. As you say, Cheryl, there is a lot we decipher automatically in reading...and I think much of that we develop in "studying" how to speak and understand the language in those early childhood years. Anyways, my point was it seems to take a human infant four or five years (at best) to go from goo-goo, gaaa-gaaa to being able to read and speak somewhat fluently. I don't see why I should be able to pick up a first instrument (piano) at 56 and expect to be fluent before 60 or 61 (at best). And math doesn't enter in to it in any way at all. BWDIK, I can't even play any of my pieces at lesson. Arrrrrgggh.  Definitely feeling quite goo goo gaa gaa - ish these days. Thanks Jim- I am for sure goo goo on Piano!!
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Joined: Jul 2011
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Maybe Edward - maybe you've sort of "set yourself up" to feel that the math problem carries over into piano? I don't mean to downplay your frustration - but I wonder if you are working with a self-fulfilling prophesy here? "I'm not good at math, notes are fractions of each other, I'm going to have trouble with them." No because I found it mathematical from the start- timing, beats, note values- no getting away from it! Anyway told my teacher again today about my maths problem and said I wanted to do chords more- I was working on chords when he arrived so we did chords and scales mostly today- was very helpful- can play some of Imagine now. I am not getting off the hook with note reading though as he gave me more pages from Alfred's to work through- it's still the simple enough stuff for now. He didn't seem to mind the Brahms was taken by the recycling bin men LOL. I'm going to draw another parallel idea here....
a lot of my students crave grammar rules. They feel a deep need to know all the grammar rules, all the exceptions, to analyze structures and make schematics.....other students tend to want an explanation and then they want to play with the concept, to run with the idea, to put it into practice.
As a student of Italian, I'm in the second category. As a teacher of English, I'm more comfortable with teaching the second type of student. I find that those who need such indepth structure and crave the analysis are generally building up road blocks for themselves - they end up not being able to speak because they're too focused on the rules and too afraid of making mistakes.
Is it possible that this sort of over-analysis is the root of the frustration rather than a math issue?
I follow what you are saying because I too am an EFL teacher and some students I taught liked the rules etc- I did used to explain the rules anyway. No, I'm not too analytical with music except working out chords, key signatures etc- cos one must understand that. I just don't understand how long a beat is supposed to last- one second ten seconds? I cannot relate one note to another cos I don't understand how long they should be played for. I know a crotchet is one beat, a minim, two beats, semi breve three beats etc- but how long is a
beat??? You get me? I do not get this. And while I'm doing so much wondering --- I wonder too, if this could be an interesting thread on its own? As much as we love this thread, not everyone stops to read it and this topic might have a wide appeal Certainly- maybe the thread mod can make it into an other thread. p.s. I had to look up BWDIK lol!!!! The acroynm is lost on me too!
Last edited by EdwardianPiano; 10/19/12 02:28 PM.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 808
500 Post Club Member
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Hi all,
Last two weeks I didn't practise much, because I had two problems.
First I almost accidently cut my fingertop off with a knive. Well, it went half way through. It has to heal first. The finger gets a rough time at work, but the wound is quite nice now.
Secondly I had some problems with my body clocks. Sleepy, tired and no hunger when coming home from work. Hunger late at night. Awake when bedtime. Very bad sleeping. Not awake in the morning before second cup of coffee. And no concentration overall.
Eating and drinking in a 12 hour period at daytime helps setting my digesting clock to my biological one. I have more energy and concentration for playing piano in the evening and I sleep better now.
I'm very happy, because when my internal clocks are ticking right, it's such a difference in enjoying practise.
I wish your finger speedy healing Chris- do you work shifts?
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 808
500 Post Club Member
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I think I'm glad to see that you think math doesn't come into it -because though I'm not great in math, (and not a brilliant musician) I've never thought of music as being a mathmatical exercise. Sure we have notes which are fractions of other notes, but my brain doesn't look at them that way.
In my previous post I was perhaps not articulate enough in expressing that I was wondering about that connection - does it exist for most people or not? I feel not, for myself, and you don't feel it. Edward does.
Do, in fact, a large number of people feel that their math abilities are reflected in their piano efforts? Or is there a large number who feel strongly that there is no correlation. I don't think that I look at note lengths as fractions. For example, in a measure with 3/4 time, which might have [sixteenth-note, sixteenth, eighth, quarter, quarter, eighth, eighth] I wouldn't think [1/16, 1/16, 1/8, 1/4, 1/4, 1/8, 1/8]. Rather, I would just count [(1) (e) (&a) (2e&a) (3e&a) (4e) (&a)]. Edwardian, maybe your could try not even thinking about fractions. Just think about each type of note as how many syllables you count for each it. Another approach that I use for difficult rhythms, is that I like to visualize where they fall in time. So I might draw out a timeline of a measure, and sketch out where notes come in, and how long they last. Here's an example from a Haydn piece in 3/4 time that I was working on last year. This shows four measures from the piece. Each row is one measure, with RH rhythm on top and LH on the bottom. X represents a rest, a dot is the start of a note, and the line indicates how long to hold it. Probably doesn't make sense to anyone except me, but maybe you get the general idea. That sketch is very good- makes sense to me that does!
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 210
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TOMORROW!!!!!!!!!!!!
TOMORROW is when I go to buy my piano!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can barely stay still
Complete Beginner August 2012
'Play Piano' Book 1 - finished
'Play Piano' Book 2 - finished
Grade 1 Sight Reading - finished
Grade 1 Exam Pieces
Grade 1 Scales
The Easy Piano Collection Classical Gold
Yamaha U3
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 210
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*sitting on hands*
*dancing around a bit*
*trying to read a book*
*trying to practice on keyboard*
*pacing the floor*
*laughing like a maniac*
*trying not to cry*
*sitting on hands*
Someone distract me please. So sick with excitement I can't even think straight.
Complete Beginner August 2012
'Play Piano' Book 1 - finished
'Play Piano' Book 2 - finished
Grade 1 Sight Reading - finished
Grade 1 Exam Pieces
Grade 1 Scales
The Easy Piano Collection Classical Gold
Yamaha U3
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 210
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Full Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 210 |
Mad woman here again! This time tomorrow I will have bought one. And it will be mine. *faint*
Just need to chatter mindlessly somewhere sorry as I'm not making any sense to anyone else. I can't really have a sensible conversation right now. Boyfriend tried to tell me something serious about work and I stood there smiling and staring.
Clearly I need to be locked up.
TOMORROW! Piano!!!!!! Of my own!!!
Complete Beginner August 2012
'Play Piano' Book 1 - finished
'Play Piano' Book 2 - finished
Grade 1 Sight Reading - finished
Grade 1 Exam Pieces
Grade 1 Scales
The Easy Piano Collection Classical Gold
Yamaha U3
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 210
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I've even made up a little song.
It goes like this:
Piano, lovely piano, tomorrow you will be mine.
I need to do sensible things like print off maps and make notes, but I am incapable of this right now. Too busy hopping around and trying not to vomit.
Complete Beginner August 2012
'Play Piano' Book 1 - finished
'Play Piano' Book 2 - finished
Grade 1 Sight Reading - finished
Grade 1 Exam Pieces
Grade 1 Scales
The Easy Piano Collection Classical Gold
Yamaha U3
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 210
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Full Member
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How am I going to sleep tonight? Is what I am wondering right now...
Complete Beginner August 2012
'Play Piano' Book 1 - finished
'Play Piano' Book 2 - finished
Grade 1 Sight Reading - finished
Grade 1 Exam Pieces
Grade 1 Scales
The Easy Piano Collection Classical Gold
Yamaha U3
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 210
Full Member
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Full Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 210 |
I just realised you all had this sensible discussion in my absence over the last few days and I have completely ignored this and proceeded to babble mindlessly about tomorrow (omg TOMORROW), so I apologise for my rudeness. I will think about all this and respond coherently when I am in a clearer frame of mind, as you were all having a fantastic debate which is really interesting.
Last edited by Toastie; 10/19/12 02:59 PM.
Complete Beginner August 2012
'Play Piano' Book 1 - finished
'Play Piano' Book 2 - finished
Grade 1 Sight Reading - finished
Grade 1 Exam Pieces
Grade 1 Scales
The Easy Piano Collection Classical Gold
Yamaha U3
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,427
1000 Post Club Member
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@Toastie => YAAAAAY! A piano of your very own!!!! I'd be frantically dancing around too 
Please step aside. You're standing in your own way.
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I tried to learn the raindrop prelude about a year ago and just couldn't. Everything was so confusing. Started looking at it about a week ago and I've got it down now! Still could use a little improvement but I would def play it for friends! And I just feel as if I have had a general improvement in my playing.
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I wouldn't worry about being sensible Toastie, it's time to celebrate! Dance! Dance! 
Becca Began: 01-12-11 ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/ABF_Medals/1medal.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/forumpicts/MOYD12/MOYD_2.gif) Roland RD300NX
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Someone grab the fire extinguisher for Toastie..... ![[Linked Image]](http://thebsreport.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/hair-fire.jpg)  It is exciting, isn't it?
Liebestraum 3, Liszt Standchen-Schubert/Liszt arr Sonata Pathetique-Adagio LVB Estonia L190 #7284 ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/ABF_Medals/medal_c_5.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/ABF_Medals/5medals.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/gallery/42/full/5781.gif)
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Yes that is definitely me right now. I have calmed down a little now, but only because I've exhausted myself. I'm not going to talk any sense at all tomorrow and then for at least a week once I actually have the piano at home.
Have been waiting my whole life for this day!!!
Complete Beginner August 2012
'Play Piano' Book 1 - finished
'Play Piano' Book 2 - finished
Grade 1 Sight Reading - finished
Grade 1 Exam Pieces
Grade 1 Scales
The Easy Piano Collection Classical Gold
Yamaha U3
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 808
500 Post Club Member
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500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 808 |
TOMORROW!!!!!!!!!!!!
TOMORROW is when I go to buy my piano!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can barely stay still I know the feeling!
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 808
500 Post Club Member
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I tried to learn the raindrop prelude about a year ago and just couldn't. Everything was so confusing. Started looking at it about a week ago and I've got it down now! Still could use a little improvement but I would def play it for friends! And I just feel as if I have had a general improvement in my playing. Wow that's great!! I love this Prelude!
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