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#2024644 - 01/31/13 01:11 PM How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes)
Thrill Science Offline
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Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 520
Loc: California
Since we've been talking about cheating, I want to come clean! I cheat!

For example, here's what I do for Chopin 10/1



Top is as written, bottom is what I do.

I don't play the "C" 8ve in the bass then try to repeat that C again in my right hand. I simply play the lowest C, then repeat the other C again with my left hand, a 16th note later. The pedal is down and nobody suspects a thing.

There are a few other cheats I do in this one, a couple even omit notes. I will notate them and post here when I get another break today.

(Maybe I can go on Oprah and, tearfully, admit to cheating!)


Edited by Thrill Science (01/31/13 01:12 PM)
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#2024646 - 01/31/13 01:22 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Nikolas Offline
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5303
Loc: Europe
OMG!

Ban him NOW!

NOW I TELL YOU!

grin
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#2024650 - 01/31/13 01:32 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Thrill Science Offline
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Posts: 520
Loc: California
It's interesting seeing what other pianists do. I like this "suspicious cut" on this Garrick Ohlsson video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdCObCqE7ek

They switch cameras so you can't see exactly what he does, but his left thumb is on that "C" so he either didn't play it twice, or re-held it.

I can't tell what Valentina Lisitsa is doing either

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROVy9PC8_8A

I'll stick with my solution.


Edited by Thrill Science (01/31/13 01:36 PM)
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#2024652 - 01/31/13 01:34 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Vid Offline
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I'm not sure why you use cheat at the beginning as I don't find that part a challenge. Keeping your right hand relaxed at speed however is the challenge! Omitting notes? Inexcusable!!!
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#2024654 - 01/31/13 01:36 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Vid]
Thrill Science Offline
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Well, what are you going to do? As written, the same note is to be played with your right hand, and your left-hand is already on it. You're not leaving out any notes....
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#2024660 - 01/31/13 01:45 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Leaving out that one note goes way beyond "cheating" and is totally inexcusable. Shocking really. For ethical reasons you should change the title of thread immediately.

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#2024661 - 01/31/13 01:46 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Vid Offline
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My comment was a bit tongue in cheek. I probably do the same thing but am not aware of it.

I certainly can't play it up to speed so any pedantry on my part is entirely without merit.
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#2024675 - 01/31/13 02:30 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Pogorelich. Offline
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PL they're not leaving it out but simply redistributing between the hands. I don't see the point though.. it potentially disturbs the musical line and doesn't really make it much easier..
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#2024680 - 01/31/13 02:39 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Mark_C Offline
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LOL!

I assume this is mostly a "LOL," including because as Vid said, that's hardly one of the hard things about the piece.

Oh -- in case you were half serious about "Well, what are you going to do? As written, the same note is to be played with your right hand, and your left-hand is already on it" grin or for anyone who wonders: You can immediately release the note with the LH to allow it to be played by the RH, and then the pedal sustains it. (Since I doubt there would be any Bach-thread-like opinion that you don't use pedal.) ha

BTW I worked out a cheat where you never have to stretch more than a 7th with the RH in the whole piece. Playing it that way really would be grounds for execution. smile

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#2024686 - 01/31/13 02:43 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
Vid Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C

BTW I worked out a cheat where you never have to stretch more than a 7th with the RH in the whole piece. Playing it that way really would be grounds for execution. smile


How do you manage that? Can you post the fingering (if you dare)?
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#2024698 - 01/31/13 02:53 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Vid]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Vid
How do you manage that? Can you post the fingering (if you dare)?

OK, you dragged it out of me. ha

All I need to do is say the first few notes, and you could figure out the rest. First of all I do what Thrill said grin and then on the next 4 notes (G-C-E-C) the RH does 1-2-4-2, then shifts up to play the next 4 notes the same way, and so on. Sometimes it's 1-3-5-3 or 1-2-5-2 or whatever, depending on how the notes lay out. And where you can't take the first RH note of a figure with the LH, you use 2 and then jump the thumb to the next note. (And BTW maybe sometimes you actually have to 'stretch' as much as an octave, don't remember for sure, glad to say I haven't done this stupid trick in years.)

It's a genuine felony. grin

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#2024705 - 01/31/13 03:02 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
Thrill Science Offline
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Loc: California
I actually do that same move in quite a few places. Let me mark up a manuscript later today and show you what I mean.
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#2024731 - 01/31/13 03:46 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Hakki Offline
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"How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes)"

*I* don't cheat in Etudes.

Why would *you* want to cheat in an Etude?
Doesn't it make studying the Etude meaningless?

The only reasoning I can think of why you would want to do such things is that:
- You don't actually want to study the etude and gain the skill intended by the composer,
- However you want to hear how it sounds live on your own piano, from the players position.

If you are okay hearing it live on your own piano from a listeners position, find someone who can play the Etude as written and intended by Chopin, and let him/her play it for you.
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#2024752 - 01/31/13 04:31 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Hakki]
jeffreyjones Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hakki
"How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes)"

*I* don't cheat in Etudes.

Why would *you* want to cheat in an Etude?
Doesn't it make studying the Etude meaningless?

The only reasoning I can think of why you would want to do such things is that:
- You don't actually want to study the etude and gain the skill intended by the composer,
- However you want to hear how it sounds live on your own piano, from the players position.

If you are okay hearing it live on your own piano from a listeners position, find someone who can play the Etude as written and intended by Chopin, and let him/her play it for you.



I'm in this camp. The reason to work on an Etude is to improve some aspect of your technique. Finding a way to eliminate the primary challenge in an Etude is like attaching a motor to a bicycle and then going out for a fitness ride; it's not going to do you any good.

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#2024762 - 01/31/13 04:48 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Hakki]
Thrill Science Offline
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Registered: 09/04/11
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Loc: California
Quote:
Why would *you* want to cheat in an Etude?
Doesn't it make studying the Etude meaningless?


Sometimes the goal is to make music!
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Thrill Science, Inc.

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#2024784 - 01/31/13 05:19 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
GeorgeB Offline
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Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 635
It is intended you put the thumb on the second semiquaver and the fifth on the beat when going up and the fifth on the beat and the fourth on the fourth semiquaver group when you go down.

I've seen people do in bar 11...
2-1-2/3-5-2-1-2/3-5 etc, because their hand is too small and they can't play what's written.

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#2024802 - 01/31/13 05:44 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Derulux Offline
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Loc: Philadelphia
I cheat by letting someone else play them for me..

I learned a couple of them years and years ago, but haven't touched them since. Incidentally, I remember using Mark's cheat to reduce the span because my hands at the time were too small to play it as written.
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#2024803 - 01/31/13 05:44 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Old Man Offline
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Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 778
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
Quote:
Why would *you* want to cheat in an Etude?
Doesn't it make studying the Etude meaningless?

Sometimes the goal is to make music!

I'll even double down: Most often the goal is to make music! smile

Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Finding a way to eliminate the primary challenge in an Etude is like attaching a motor to a bicycle and then going out for a fitness ride; it's not going to do you any good.

Chopin's etudes reduced to mere "fitness exercises"????

Czerny, Hanon, Duvernoy ... and ... and ... Chopin??

Yikes! shocked

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#2024820 - 01/31/13 06:01 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Hakki Offline
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Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2664
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
Quote:
Why would *you* want to cheat in an Etude?
Doesn't it make studying the Etude meaningless?


Sometimes the goal is to make music!


Aren't you aware that by dropping that note, you are already ruining one of the most musically profound element of this etude? The majestic opening octave.

Redistributing the notes between hands/fingers to achieve your goal of making music? Maybe (still it will be your music but not Chopin's, because the sound will change dramatically).

But dropping notes and making music? No way!
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#2024833 - 01/31/13 06:28 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Damon Offline
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Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
Quote:
Why would *you* want to cheat in an Etude?
Doesn't it make studying the Etude meaningless?


Sometimes the goal is to make music!


Then you should be playing the Liszt etudes.
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#2024842 - 01/31/13 06:54 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
....Oh -- in case you were half serious about "Well, what are you going to do? As written, the same note is to be played with your right hand, and your left-hand is already on it" grin or for anyone who wonders: You can immediately release the note with the LH to allow it to be played by the RH, and then the pedal sustains it....

On second look....I blew it there -- that's not at all how it's usually done.
Never mind. smile

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#2024876 - 01/31/13 08:12 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
wr Offline
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Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7893
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
Quote:
Why would *you* want to cheat in an Etude?
Doesn't it make studying the Etude meaningless?


Sometimes the goal is to make music!


That doesn't negate the fact that it is still an etude.

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#2024881 - 01/31/13 08:25 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
wr Offline
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Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7893
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
Well, what are you going to do? As written, the same note is to be played with your right hand, and your left-hand is already on it. You're not leaving out any notes....


It doesn't seem all that confusing to me. You play the octave with the left hand - it is sustained with the pedal - and you bounce the left thumb off the key to allow the right thumb to restrike the note. The fingering given is Chopin's own, so I imagine that is what he had in mind. To me, repeating the C with the left hand thumb is far more difficult than using the right. I think that a slight agogic stretch at that spot is okay, too.

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#2024890 - 01/31/13 09:06 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: wr]
Derulux Offline
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Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
Well, what are you going to do? As written, the same note is to be played with your right hand, and your left-hand is already on it. You're not leaving out any notes....


It doesn't seem all that confusing to me. You play the octave with the left hand - it is sustained with the pedal - and you bounce the left thumb off the key to allow the right thumb to restrike the note. The fingering given is Chopin's own, so I imagine that is what he had in mind. To me, repeating the C with the left hand thumb is far more difficult than using the right. I think that a slight agogic stretch at that spot is okay, too.



If you're not going to regroup the notes (ie Mark's alternate fingering), then I definitely agree. It makes the passage more difficult. But if you do regroup, then striking the C with the LH makes sense.
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#2024894 - 01/31/13 09:13 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: wr]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: wr
....You play the octave with the left hand - it is sustained with the pedal - and you bounce the left thumb off the key to allow the right thumb to restrike the note.

That's how it's done. thumb
Not what I said. ha

Quote:
....I think that a slight agogic stretch at that spot is okay, too.

That, on the the other hand, is not how it's done. grin

IMO you can't afford any break in the rhythm there, at all -- because it's where you're establishing the tempo and rhythm. That is, immediately.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone do an 'agogic stretch' there, and I think I'd fall off my seat if I did -- not from being aghast, but from losing my balance. ha

Originally Posted By: Derulux
If you're not going to regroup the notes (ie Mark's alternate fingering)....

You're absolutely not going to do "Mark's alternate fingering." grin
It's not an alternate fingering, it's a farce.

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#2024901 - 01/31/13 09:30 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: wr]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
Quote:
Why would *you* want to cheat in an Etude?
Doesn't it make studying the Etude meaningless?


Sometimes the goal is to make music!


That doesn't negate the fact that it is still an etude.
I think the point is that if one is playing an etude that is also a a great musical work, making music can supersede the fact that the the piece is an etude. Even if one is focused only on the technical benefits of playing an etude, what about the benefits of playing the rest of the etude as written? Should a student miss out on all the technical and musical benefits of playing the etude (with some minor alteration) just because they don't have the time or skill to play a few notes as written? Some posters seem to act like some has suggested playing an octave etude in single notes throughout.

I think, quite frankly, that any discussion of redistributing a single note in any piece, etude or not, is very silly and almost infantile. As one poster's teacher called similar thoughts "majoring in minoring." An extreme example of missing the forest for the trees. Not the thing that I can imagine really good pianists ever do.

Many students study some Chopin etudes at one point but many never play them at a professional speed. This kind of "alteration" makes redistributing a single note look like a single grain of sand on a beach yet I think most students still benefit from doing this kind of practice. This is why teachers assign the Chopin Etudes to pupils so frequently.



Edited by pianoloverus (01/31/13 09:51 PM)

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#2024914 - 01/31/13 10:12 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4828
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Leaving out that one note goes way beyond "cheating" and is totally inexcusable. Shocking really. For ethical reasons you should change the title of thread immediately.


Funny.. cause when we were talking about Bunin purposely leaving out a note, you said it was just one grain of sand on a giant beach.

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#2024916 - 01/31/13 10:13 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Damon]
sophial Offline
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3475
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
Quote:
Why would *you* want to cheat in an Etude?
Doesn't it make studying the Etude meaningless?


Sometimes the goal is to make music!


Then you should be playing the Liszt etudes.

laugh
LOL

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#2024940 - 01/31/13 11:18 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Leaving out that one note goes way beyond "cheating" and is totally inexcusable. Shocking really. For ethical reasons you should change the title of thread immediately.
Funny.. cause when we were talking about Bunin purposely leaving out a note, you said it was just one grain of sand on a giant beach.

....and funny that you call changing the entire nature of a phrase "leaving out a note." grin

(Leaving out the note was the least of it. It was a tiny detail that helped enable him to do his very different interpretation of the phrase.)

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#2024944 - 01/31/13 11:30 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Jonathan Baker Offline
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Registered: 06/09/09
Posts: 401
Loc: New York City!
Of the C major etude, Chopin said to a student, "If you study this as I intended it, it widens the hand and enables you to play runs of wide broken chords like bow strokes. But often, unfortunately, instead of making people learn all that, it makes people unlearn it."

I suppose that different hand types have different issues with this etude. Both Horowitz and Rubinstein refused to record it. My hand is a virtual photocopy of Van Cliburn's (we are the same height and build) and one might presume that this etude is a mere lark for me, but not at all - measure 30 has been my bête noire for many years. The fifth finger descending to the fourth finger (E-flat to B-flat) certainly does not compliment my hand (yes, I have tried the third finger, but that is worse). I have seen pianists with smaller hands negotiate that passage with greater ease. But I don't utilize two-handed 'cheating' because I want to solve the riddle on its own terms.

I have followed Cortot's edition (among others, of course) and with all due respect to that noble artist, I find his preparatory exercises, which often utilize a fixed-grip, in direct contradiction to the greater purpose of the etude, which is to achieve elasticity and flexibility while 'under duress' of wide stretches that are unrelenting in ever-varying repetition.
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#2024945 - 01/31/13 11:30 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4828
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Leaving out that one note goes way beyond "cheating" and is totally inexcusable. Shocking really. For ethical reasons you should change the title of thread immediately.
Funny.. cause when we were talking about Bunin purposely leaving out a note, you said it was just one grain of sand on a giant beach.

....and funny that you call changing the entire nature of a phrase "leaving out a note." grin

(Leaving out the note was the least of it. It was a tiny detail that helped enable him to do his very different interpretation of the phrase.)


AND YET... a single grain on one big beach.

Thanks for helping me prove my point. smile

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#2024946 - 01/31/13 11:30 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
Derulux Offline
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Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Derulux
If you're not going to regroup the notes (ie Mark's alternate fingering)....

You're absolutely not going to do "Mark's alternate fingering." grin
It's not an alternate fingering, it's a farce.

In honor of you, I may go back, relearn the piece, and record it with your alternate fingering. I will, of course, give you all the credit. And I mean ALL the credit. :p wink
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#2024952 - 01/31/13 11:36 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
RealPlayer Offline
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Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 2340
Loc: NYC
At first I thought the reasoning behind the LH "take" was because the player's physiognomy made reaching the RH thumb down there difficult. But then the subsequent measures would again require a "fix."

I might forgive such a thing for one occurrence in a big work, but not where it's an integral, repeated part of the structure.
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#2024956 - 01/31/13 11:43 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: JoelW
Thanks for helping me prove my point. smile

Not to make a big thing of it, but glad to be of service. grin

Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Derulux
If you're not going to regroup the notes (ie Mark's alternate fingering)....

You're absolutely not going to do "Mark's alternate fingering." grin
It's not an alternate fingering, it's a farce.

In honor of you, I may go back, relearn the piece, and record it with your alternate fingering. I will, of course, give you all the credit. And I mean ALL the credit. :p wink


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#2024960 - 01/31/13 11:57 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Jonathan Baker]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jonathan Baker
Of the C major etude, Chopin said to a student, "If you study this as I intended it, it widens the hand and enables you to play runs of wide broken chords like bow strokes...."

Is that an undisputed quote??

It surprises me if it is, because I've tended to doubt that he much conceived of the etudes as helping develop technique (as most people assume he did). I've viewed them more as compositional studies -- showing how you can create great music with etude figures -- and pieces to display the technique that you have more than to develop it.

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#2024970 - 02/01/13 12:11 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
outo Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Jonathan Baker
Of the C major etude, Chopin said to a student, "If you study this as I intended it, it widens the hand and enables you to play runs of wide broken chords like bow strokes...."

Is that an undisputed quote??

It surprises me if it is, because I've tended to doubt that he much conceived of the etudes as helping develop technique (as most people assume he did). I've viewed them more as compositional studies -- showing how you can create great music with etude figures -- and pieces to display the technique that you have more than to develop it.


I don't have time to look for the exact quote, but he did mention in one of his letters about "writing etudes in his manner" and of course he also started to write his method. And it seems he was kind of devoted as a teacher, so I would assume he has this aspect in mind when preparing these.

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#2024990 - 02/01/13 01:19 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
outo Offline
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The above quote about 10-1 is in Eisedinger's book, page 68. He got it from Niecks. It was supposedly told to Friederike Streicher by Chopin. So it is hearsay, as is most of what we know about his teaching.

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#2025063 - 02/01/13 04:49 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
stores Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Jonathan Baker
Of the C major etude, Chopin said to a student, "If you study this as I intended it, it widens the hand and enables you to play runs of wide broken chords like bow strokes...."

Is that an undisputed quote??



It is a fairly well-known quote that is attributed to one of Chopin's students. Of course, ANYONE could dispute it, Mark (as I've no doubt you will).
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#2025112 - 02/01/13 07:23 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: JoelW]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Leaving out that one note goes way beyond "cheating" and is totally inexcusable. Shocking really. For ethical reasons you should change the title of thread immediately.


Funny.. cause when we were talking about Bunin purposely leaving out a note, you said it was just one grain of sand on a giant beach.
I was joking this time.

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#2025135 - 02/01/13 08:23 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
trigalg693 Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

Many students study some Chopin etudes at one point but many never play them at a professional speed. This kind of "alteration" makes redistributing a single note look like a single grain of sand on a beach yet I think most students still benefit from doing this kind of practice. This is why teachers assign the Chopin Etudes to pupils so frequently.



I think this is a good point, but Chopin etudes are musically lacking compared to say Liszt or Rachmaninoff etudes, which are excellent short performance pieces if you cut the "etude" off the title, whereas Chopin etudes are less serious music.

I've personally spent over 1 full year on op.10 no.4, and I'm hitting the 2 month mark for op.25 no.6 (at this point in my piano playing career 2 months is a lot on something this short), and I think that's part of the genius of the Chopin etudes; They might not be that musically compelling, but they sure as heck are fun to work on, even if they can be impossibly hard!

As for "cheating", I've seen people move notes over to the left hand in op.10 no.4, which I think completely defeats the purpose. The right hand has no challenge when you do that.

But for example in op.25 no.6, before the last page, that descending A major scale in thirds, I use the left hand to play the D-F#s because it doesn't make things that much easier, but it makes it sound smoother, and if you want to accuse me of making it easier, well I still have to play the harmonic G# minor descending scale with 1 hand, and that one is far far tougher.


Edited by trigalg693 (02/01/13 08:30 AM)

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#2025144 - 02/01/13 08:43 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Damon]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
Quote:
Why would *you* want to cheat in an Etude?
Doesn't it make studying the Etude meaningless?


Sometimes the goal is to make music!


Then you should be playing the Liszt etudes.


Or Rachmaninoff! They're absolutely magnificent.. I mean, take op. 39/2 for example - can you find another etude with a similar emotional content? I love it!!!
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#2025146 - 02/01/13 08:48 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

I think, quite frankly, that any discussion of redistributing a single note in any piece, etude or not, is very silly and almost infantile. As one poster's teacher called similar thoughts "majoring in minoring." An extreme example of missing the forest for the trees. Not the thing that I can imagine really good pianists ever do.



Kimura Parker does this ALL the time - would you call him a bad pianist? I'd say he's pretty good.... smile

Sometimes, it's better to sacrifice ONE note than to risk sounding like an idiot and messing up the character because of one silly note that no one would hear anyway. Especially if it's redistributed - I tend to avoid it, but sometimes it's inevitable especially if you cannot reach said note. Sometimes I use that tool to actually achieve a higher musical essence of the specific passage which would otherwise be impossible. In instances like that, it's perfectly okay, especially in thick-layered music (I'm thinking Rachmaninoff or Prokofiev 2nd concerto, stuff like that).


Edited by Pogorelich. (02/01/13 08:48 AM)
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#2025197 - 02/01/13 10:23 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
Jonathan Baker Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Is that an undisputed quote??


I don't think that prior to videotape there can be such a thing as an undisputed quote, but my source is here:

"Chopin, Pianist and Teacher, as seen by his pupils." by Jean-Jacques Eigeldinger,
Cambridge Press, 1986. Page 68, in turn quoting Streicher/Niecks, II p. 341.

I presume that any quote by a student of Chopin, Liszt, etc., will be an approximation since they would be writing from memory, even if notated the same day in a private journal.
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#2025229 - 02/01/13 11:02 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Pogorelich.]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

I think, quite frankly, that any discussion of redistributing a single note in any piece, etude or not, is very silly and almost infantile. As one poster's teacher called similar thoughts "majoring in minoring." An extreme example of missing the forest for the trees. Not the thing that I can imagine really good pianists ever do.



Kimura Parker does this ALL the time - would you call him a bad pianist? I'd say he's pretty good.... smile
If so, I'd guess he an the exception.

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#2025250 - 02/01/13 11:45 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: trigalg693]
jeffreyjones Offline
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Originally Posted By: trigalg693
I think this is a good point, but Chopin etudes are musically lacking compared to say Liszt or Rachmaninoff etudes, which are excellent short performance pieces if you cut the "etude" off the title, whereas Chopin etudes are less serious music.


I'm going to disagree here, in more polite terms than I'm inclined to. If you're going to talk about what Chopin's etudes are lacking vs. Liszt or Rachmaninoff, it's certainly not musical quality. They're magnificent in terms of making exercises in technical fundamentals live, breathe and sing. Countless composers have been trying to write better exercises in thirds or sixths for almost 200 years, and only Debussy was able to match him, IMO.

If they are missing anything, it's a large amount of contrast. The end of Chopin's B minor etude in octaves is essentially the same as the beginning, and the center section, though fantastic, is technically repetitive. Liszt's Wilde Jagd has a lot more development and differentiation between sections.

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#2025273 - 02/01/13 12:03 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: jeffreyjones]
trigalg693 Offline
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Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones

If they are missing anything, it's a large amount of contrast. The end of Chopin's B minor etude in octaves is essentially the same as the beginning, and the center section, though fantastic, is technically repetitive. Liszt's Wilde Jagd has a lot more development and differentiation between sections.


Well, that's what I'm getting at. They are very simplistic and repetitive, and while that material would make a good few passages in a larger work, there is not much variety. Of course they are very short so there isn't time for much development, but the structure of a piece is important, not just the parts that constitute it.

Chopin etudes are like a more lyrical Czerny etude, whereas Liszt etudes have more structure and development to them. The technical focus is woven into a larger framework, and the technical focus itself is broader, and so I think it's more appropriate for general programming.


Edited by trigalg693 (02/01/13 12:04 PM)

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#2025350 - 02/01/13 02:37 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
Vid Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C



Mr. Bill! That takes me back. ha
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#2025353 - 02/01/13 02:44 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: jeffreyjones]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Originally Posted By: trigalg693
I think this is a good point, but Chopin etudes are musically lacking compared to say Liszt or Rachmaninoff etudes, which are excellent short performance pieces if you cut the "etude" off the title, whereas Chopin etudes are less serious music.

I'm going to disagree here, in more polite terms than I'm inclined to....

Thanks -- you kept me from having to do the impoliteness. grin
Especially about the Chopin.

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#2025374 - 02/01/13 03:09 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: trigalg693]
beet31425 Offline
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Originally Posted By: trigalg693
Well, that's what I'm getting at. They are very simplistic and repetitive, and while that material would make a good few passages in a larger work, there is not much variety. Of course they are very short so there isn't time for much development, but the structure of a piece is important, not just the parts that constitute it.

Chopin etudes are like a more lyrical Czerny etude, whereas Liszt etudes have more structure and development to them. The technical focus is woven into a larger framework...


I couldn't disagree with this more. I think that Chopin's etudes are among his very greatest compositions, on par with the ballades, nocturnes and preludes, among others. The B minor "octaves etude" happens to be one of my least favorites, so I won't argue there. But all the rest are, for me, examples of the most subtle, rarified art. I like Liszt's, but the Chopin etudes are in a different league for me. I'm surprised at how many here view their purpose as pedagogical.

-J
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#2025380 - 02/01/13 03:17 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: beet31425]
jeffreyjones Offline
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Originally Posted By: beet31425
I couldn't disagree with this more. I think that Chopin's etudes are among his very greatest compositions, on par with the ballades, nocturnes and preludes, among others. The B minor "octaves etude" happens to be one of my least favorites, so I won't argue there. But all the rest are, for me, examples of the most subtle, rarified art. I like Liszt's, but the Chopin etudes are in a different league for me. I'm surprised at how many here view their purpose as pedagogical.

-J


The musical quality makes them better pedagogical works, not worse.

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#2025439 - 02/01/13 04:37 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Pogorelich.]
Damon Offline
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Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
Quote:
Why would *you* want to cheat in an Etude?
Doesn't it make studying the Etude meaningless?


Sometimes the goal is to make music!


Then you should be playing the Liszt etudes.


Or Rachmaninoff! They're absolutely magnificent.. I mean, take op. 39/2 for example - can you find another etude with a similar emotional content? I love it!!!


thumb I like the Chopin etudes, but they strike me as pop tunes with a technical problem thrown on top. Hard to learn, easy to memorize.
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#2025457 - 02/01/13 05:05 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Damon
I like the Chopin etudes, but they strike me as pop tunes with a technical problem thrown on top. Hard to learn, easy to memorize.

Totally false!!!
(Although, the melody of the F major 10/8 does seem to stolen from an old Beef-A-Roni commercial.) ha


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#2025471 - 02/01/13 05:20 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Orange Soda King Offline
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I NEVER cheat in any of Chopin's etudes.

More specifically, I don't play Chopin's etudes. grin

Regarding musical value of Chopin's etudes vs. his nocturnes or ballades or sonatas; They are all different kinds of compositions, and I think the etudes have wonderful musical value. It's hard for me to compare his etudes to his nocturnes or sonatas for example, but if you asked me what I'd rather listen to, I'll always answer with nocturnes, sonatas, ballades, etc.

Regarding musical value of etudes in general, Liszt's and Rachmaninoff's etudes are longer and more expansive, whereas Chopin's are almost always a short A-B-A form and more or less chord progressions over a technical difficulty. Also, L's/R's etudes aren't just chord progressions over technical difficulties. I am in NO means saying anything negative about or discrediting Chopin's etudes by saying that; it's just that L/R did different things than Chopin. Chopin's seem a bit more standardized to me.

THEN you have my favorite under-appreciated composer, who combines the technical concentration of Chopin and musical/formal expansion of Liszt. wink http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly8SVwZGoHk


Edited by Orange Soda King (02/01/13 05:29 PM)

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#2025477 - 02/01/13 05:29 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Orange Soda King]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
....THEN you have my favorite under-appreciated composer, who combines the technical concentration of Chopin and musical/formal expansion of Liszt. wink http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly8SVwZGoHk

I had a feeling it was going to be him. grin

BTW I agree.

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#2025498 - 02/01/13 05:55 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Orange Soda King]
bennevis Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
I NEVER cheat in any of Chopin's etudes.

More specifically, I don't play Chopin's etudes. grin



THEN you have my favorite under-appreciated composer, who combines the technical concentration of Chopin and musical/formal expansion of Liszt. wink http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly8SVwZGoHk


You don't even play Chopin's Op.10/12 or Op.25/1?? (BTW, no need to cheat in either; actually, it's easier to play them without cheating grin)

As for Alkan, some of his music sound a trifle relentless to me..... wink....though I still love it, especially when played by Hamelin or Gibbons. But not sure I'd want to play it myself (OK, I've never tried....).
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#2025502 - 02/01/13 06:02 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: bennevis]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: bennevis
....Op.10/12 or Op.25/1?? (BTW, no need to cheat in either; actually, it's easier to play them without cheating grin)

Actually it isn't -- I play 10/12 by crossing the hands and playing the LH part with the RH. ha

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#2025506 - 02/01/13 06:06 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Thrill Science Offline
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Here's another cheat I do!



Again 10/1. Top is what's written, bottom is what I play. Here, unlike the example that started this thread, I actually omit a note.

Please don't report me to Piano Protective Services! I don't want the authorities to show up at my door and take my Bösendorfer away!
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#2025601 - 02/01/13 09:10 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Kuanpiano Offline
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I cheat by performing the Godowsky etudes which are easier than the originals...
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Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#2025614 - 02/01/13 09:40 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Kuanpiano]
Orange Soda King Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
I cheat by performing the Godowsky etudes which are easier than the originals...


PLEASE tell me that you have an easier time with Godowsky's left hand arrangement of 10/2 than Chopin's 10/2. crazy

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#2025621 - 02/01/13 09:50 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Kuanpiano Offline
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Well, I just did op.10 no.6 :P
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Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#2025632 - 02/01/13 10:28 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Kuanpiano]
argerichfan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
I cheat by performing the Godowsky etudes which are easier than the originals...

You're not laughing (okay, no smiley) I hope. There is some truth in that.
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#2025642 - 02/01/13 10:53 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: argerichfan]
Orange Soda King Offline
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Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
I cheat by performing the Godowsky etudes which are easier than the originals...

You're not laughing (okay, no smiley) I hope. There is some truth in that.


Indeed, there is! With some of the etudes, anyway.

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#2025667 - 02/02/13 12:37 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Orange Soda King]
argerichfan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
I cheat by performing the Godowsky etudes which are easier than the originals...

You're not laughing (okay, no smiley) I hope. There is some truth in that.


Indeed, there is! With some of the etudes, anyway.

Well, it is an interesting situation.

David Saperton -who knew Godowsky- was a great champion of the Chopin paraphrases, and recorded several of them.

I heard them once back-to-back with a few recordings he made of the Chopin originals. Perhaps I wasn't in full command of my senses (was I going through unrequited love as a misty-eyed uni student?), yet it very much seemed to me that Saperton was apparently more comfortable in Godowsky territory, rather than Chopin territory. He seemed mildly flummoxed with Chopin's originals, technically and musically. Certainly he was no match for Ashkenazy.

From that point on, I have always suspected -for all the build-up of fancy counterpoint and embroidery- Godowsky's sugary confections are actually NOT more difficult than the originals.

But IMO Godowsky's Tower of Babel fails a simple acid test: I can listen to all of Chopin's Op 10 or 25 in one sitting, yet I cannot listen to more than three or four of the Godowsky paraphrases in a row without my ear growing very tired (and exasperated) with a sound world which is so constricted and impotent emotionally. If one wishes to gild the lily, do so in moderation.

Which brings me to my point that I think the Godowsky paraphrases are more interesting to look at in score than to listen to.
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#2025675 - 02/02/13 12:50 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Orange Soda King Offline
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I can't listen to either sets all the way through back to back, haha.

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#2025679 - 02/02/13 01:07 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: argerichfan]
Thrill Science Offline
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That's an interesting comment. I can listen to op 10 or 25 all the way through easily. I've done it an uncountable number of times in my 50 years.

But I can't listen to the Liszt Etudes without getting exhausted!
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#2025682 - 02/02/13 01:12 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Orange Soda King]
outo Offline
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The etudes are IMO great compositions and have a lot of musical value. He may have had the idea of the technical concerns in his mind but could not help to create new musical ideas as well. They were written at the time when he got to know many virtuoso pianists and understood that he had his own unique way of playing and probably wanted to show others what could be achieved with his way. This is my theory, obviously cannot be proven smile

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#2025701 - 02/02/13 02:20 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Damon]
trigalg693 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Damon

thumb I like the Chopin etudes, but they strike me as pop tunes with a technical problem thrown on top. Hard to learn, easy to memorize.


It seems that it is again us two defending this rational viewpoint that I believe most people share (how often do you see Chopin etudes programmed?) against the angry hordes of die-hard Chopin fans.

Gotta love this forum.

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#2025706 - 02/02/13 02:45 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: outo]
kuifje Offline
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Originally Posted By: outo
The etudes are IMO great compositions and have a lot of musical value. He may have had the idea of the technical concerns in his mind but could not help to create new musical ideas as well. They were written at the time when he got to know many virtuoso pianists and understood that he had his own unique way of playing and probably wanted to show others what could be achieved with his way. This is my theory, obviously cannot be proven smile

I think this sounds very plausible

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#2025743 - 02/02/13 06:16 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
wr Offline
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I think they are pretty varied in musical worth. Certainly op. 10, no. 3 is a keeper, musically. But the one just before it, to me, is just not very interesting as music. True, it's more interesting than many Czerny studies, but that's not saying a great deal.

I also think it can be difficult for those of us who have attempted any of them to sort out the musical interest from the technical interest. I don't think I can recall a single time when, hearing someone play them, the technical aspect didn't come into play in how I appreciated the performance. To me, that tells me they aren't working as pure music. YMMV, of course.







Edited by wr (02/02/13 06:17 AM)

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#2025759 - 02/02/13 07:37 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: wr]
outo Offline
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Originally Posted By: wr


I also think it can be difficult for those of us who have attempted any of them to sort out the musical interest from the technical interest. I don't think I can recall a single time when, hearing someone play them, the technical aspect didn't come into play in how I appreciated the performance. To me, that tells me they aren't working as pure music.


They are working pretty well as pure music for many of us who don't dare to attempt to play them smile

OTOH whatever piece I have played changes as a hearing experience after that. Not necessarily for the worse though.

But maybe you do have a point, I listened to the etudes for years as just music played by the greats, without even seeing the scores, so my view is probably very different...


Edited by outo (02/02/13 07:37 AM)

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#2025773 - 02/02/13 08:30 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: trigalg693]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: trigalg693

It seems that it is again us two defending this rational viewpoint that I believe most people share (how often do you see Chopin etudes programmed)...?
Quite often in my experience, at least for one book.

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#2025852 - 02/02/13 11:33 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Well Jeffrey, you said something along the lines of "other composers have tried to come up with similar exercises..." and so this is what largely the etudes are - exercises. Whereas Liszt and Rachmaninoff are more musical works.. IMHO.
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#2025861 - 02/02/13 11:57 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
ABC Vermonter Offline
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This is another aspect of cheating: "I’ve been surprised that even some professional pianists are rather inaccurate listeners. In an audition, a young player flew through Chopin’s Étude, opus 10, no. 2. She omitted the middle notes of many of the three-note chords in the right-hand part. After she left the room, some remarked on the speed and perfection of her playing. When a colleague pointed out that the piece had been simplified by leaving out those middle notes, not everyone agreed that the notes had been omitted."

The entire essay: http://www.artsjournal.com/pianomorphosis/2011/10/piano-ear.html

BTW, Prof. Bruce Brubaker is a wonderful masterclass teacher.

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#2025887 - 02/02/13 12:32 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: ABC Vermonter]
Thrill Science Offline
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Originally Posted By: ABC Vermonter
When a colleague pointed out that the piece had been simplified by leaving out those middle notes, not everyone agreed that the notes had been omitted."

The entire essay: http://www.artsjournal.com/pianomorphosis/2011/10/piano-ear.html

BTW, Prof. Bruce Brubaker is a wonderful masterclass teacher.



If it helps you make music, you can always master it with the cheats, and return to it when your technical skills pick up.

(And by "cheats" I don't mean overtly simplifying the music, just solving a problem here and there--as I do--by not holding a note or omitting a doubled note, etc.)

Now back to practicing!
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#2025892 - 02/02/13 12:37 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Pogorelich.]
beet31425 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Pogorelich
...and so this is what largely the etudes are - exercises. Whereas Liszt and Rachmaninoff are more musical works.. IMHO.

This is the musical opinion I'm astonished to find around here. I'd never heard it before. To me, the etudes have the same musical worth as the nocturnes.

-J
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#2025894 - 02/02/13 12:41 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
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I'm puzzled how anyone can think that... most of the etudes contain pure harmonic significance, and something like the nocturnes or the sonatas have so much more melodic and musical substance...

I don't mean that in a bad way, the etudes are great and very useful.
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#2025896 - 02/02/13 12:43 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: beet31425]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich
...and so this is what largely the etudes are - exercises. Whereas Liszt and Rachmaninoff are more musical works.. IMHO.

This is the musical opinion I'm astonished to find around here. I'd never heard it before. To me, the etudes have the same musical worth as the nocturnes.

I agree, including with the surprise at what we're seeing, although I'd say it's a different kind of musical worth with the etudes, which includes an appreciation of it being in the context of an etude. You might say I'm giving 'extra credit' for that; I'm not sure because for me that appreciation is such an inherent aspect of the appreciation of the music and of what the composer did.

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#2025912 - 02/02/13 01:30 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: beet31425]
Damon Offline
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Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich
...and so this is what largely the etudes are - exercises. Whereas Liszt and Rachmaninoff are more musical works.. IMHO.

This is the musical opinion I'm astonished to find around here. I'd never heard it before. To me, the etudes have the same musical worth as the nocturnes.

-J


I find this opinion more astonishing, and I don't dislike the etudes. But to compare them musically to Chopin's more thoughtful pieces is an exercise in worship, IMO.
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#2025921 - 02/02/13 01:52 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Damon]
beet31425 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Damon
I find this opinion more astonishing, and I don't dislike the etudes. But to compare them musically to Chopin's more thoughtful pieces is an exercise in worship, IMO.

Nope, not an exercise in anything; we just have different opinions.

Chopin is far from my favorite composer. I'm not even familiar with his concerti. But I got keyed on to the poetry in the etudes from an early age, and they remain some of my favorite compositions of his. I've always thought of them as pure music, no different from the other wondrous varieties of his output.

But given our very divergent views regarding Chopin vs. Liszt, I'm not surprised if we not only don't agree, but fundamentally don't understand each other. smile

-J
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#2025922 - 02/02/13 01:56 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: beet31425]
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Originally Posted By: beet31425
....I'm not even familiar with his concerti....

You're kidding!

Try the F minor a little....


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#2025926 - 02/02/13 02:07 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: beet31425]
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Regarding whether the "musical" value of the Etudes does or doesn't include an appreciation of the 'technique' aspects (of both composer and performer):

It's hard for me to see that people think those things can or should be separated. Like....(warning, remote analogy coming) ha in the above video, is our appreciation of the music not influenced by our seeing and knowing that the performer is about 150 years old? grin

For me it certainly is, just as when I heard Horszowski play at 98 or 99, that was an extreme extra factor in the appreciation of the music. Likewise, when a child plays classical music very well but not necessarily extraordinarily, some people don't understand that there's much more interest in it than when any number of adult professional pianists play much better. Epiphenomena are part of the phenomenon. smile
At least for many people, and I'd guess for most.
And with the etudes, I think this would apply even to most people who don't know anything about playing the piano or who aren't particularly into classical music. I think they still usually have some appreciation for what's going on, and that their sense of the music per se includes a contribution from that.


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#2025929 - 02/02/13 02:18 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
beet31425 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
And with the etudes, I think this would apply even to most people who don't know anything about playing the piano or who aren't particularly into classical music. I think they still usually have some appreciation for what's going on, and that their sense of the music per se includes a contribution from that.

Maybe I'm even more a purist than you, then!

Because I think I could take someone who doesn't know music, say to them "here's some Chopin", play an etude... and (if I play it right) have the same kind of overall musical/emotional connection as if I had played a nocturne or a mazurka. The epiphenomenon of its being an etude is, for me, far from the essence of the thing.

Following your pattern of vaguely related musical metaphors smile , the fact that these pieces are "etudes" is a little like the fact that Beethoven wrote his late sonatas when deaf. An important fact, and something everyone "should" know, but in the end a bit of a formal curiosity compared to the intensity and wonder of the music itself.

-J
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#2025943 - 02/02/13 03:04 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: beet31425]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: beet31425
....Because I think I could take someone who doesn't know music, say to them "here's some Chopin", play an etude... and (if I play it right) have the same kind of overall musical/emotional connection as if I had played a nocturne or a mazurka. The epiphenomenon of its being an etude is, for me, far from the essence of the thing.

I don't see that you're disagreeing with what I said, maybe just seeing differently what's going on in the person's head. I meant that the person has "the same kind of overall musical/emotional connection"!

Quote:
Following your pattern of vaguely related musical metaphors smile , the fact that these pieces are "etudes" is a little like the fact that Beethoven wrote his late sonatas when deaf....

Yes -- but there's a big difference. The things I was talking about are tangible parts of the performance, not involving any external factor or requiring any external knowledge. (About the age thing, I was assuming we can see the performer, as in the Rubinstein video.)

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#2025946 - 02/02/13 03:16 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
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Oh, I need to ''cheat'' like that all the time because I have short finger, and I think it is okay to ''cheat'', think about when you closed your eyes, you won't know a person using which finger to touch your back, they feel all the same, right?

grin
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#2025955 - 02/02/13 03:58 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: MusicaMusique]
Thrill Science Offline
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Originally Posted By: MusicaMusique
Oh, I need to ''cheat'' like that all the time because I have short finger, and I think it is okay to ''cheat'', think about when you closed your eyes, you won't know a person using which finger to touch your back, they feel all the same, right?


Exactly! I'm glad I'm not the only cheater here--or at least not the only one who will admit to it. (Maybe we can pitch a new reality show: "Cheaters: Piano")
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#2025983 - 02/02/13 05:38 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: beet31425]
wr Offline
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Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich
...and so this is what largely the etudes are - exercises. Whereas Liszt and Rachmaninoff are more musical works.. IMHO.

This is the musical opinion I'm astonished to find around here. I'd never heard it before. To me, the etudes have the same musical worth as the nocturnes.



I have some dim memory of reading that Chopin himself shared the opinion that his etudes, or at least some of them, weren't as musically valuable as his other compositions. Maybe someone knows the exact reference - I could be misremembering it.

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#2026007 - 02/02/13 06:57 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
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Well, since confession is good for the soul, I admit: Years ago when I was in college, I left those two right hand octaves out of the 10-2 A minor etude. You know, the F octave with the Ab in the middle in the Db chord, and the G octave two bars later in the Eb chord. Nobody noticed (I think they were distracted by the fact that my performance generally sucked), but I've still been wracked with guilt for many years.

Oh, and while I'm at it: That story about being injured by an IED while playing La Campanella in Iraq was made up as well. The truth is, I can't even play La Campanella.

I feel much better now.

K.

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#2026010 - 02/02/13 07:03 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
pianoloverus Online   content
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I think a big difference between the Chopin Etudes and the ones by Liszt or Rachmaninov is that the Chopin Etudes are mostly much shorter.

Thus one cannot really expect them to be as musically developed as a longer work. But, for me, that doesn't make the huge majority of them less significant than the etudes of Rachmaninov or Liszt anymore than one would say the mostly very short Chopin Prelude(quite a few of which could pass as etudes) are minor works.


Edited by pianoloverus (02/02/13 07:06 PM)

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#2026020 - 02/02/13 07:36 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Damon]
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Originally Posted By: Damon

... and I don't dislike the etudes. But to compare them musically to Chopin's more thoughtful pieces is an exercise in worship, IMO.

Well I took note of the 'IMO', but I totally disagree. Your use of the word 'worship' is utterly insulting, I have no problem rating the etudes amongst the finest of Chopin's works.

Sorry mate, did you ever study music at uni?
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#2026025 - 02/02/13 08:08 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
JoelW Offline
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I don't get it... why is the musicality of Chopin's etudes being questioned? They're all lovely little gems of music! (especially op. 25)

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#2026028 - 02/02/13 08:22 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: JoelW]
argerichfan Offline
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Originally Posted By: JoelW
I don't get it... why is the musicality of Chopin's etudes being questioned?

They are NOT being questioned. You are welcome to ignore anyone who feels differently, they do not know what they are talking about. I could just as easily listen to the Opus 10 etudes as well as I could the Opus 28 preludes.

I do not understand the nonsense here.
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#2026052 - 02/02/13 09:22 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
trigalg693 Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think a big difference between the Chopin Etudes and the ones by Liszt or Rachmaninov is that the Chopin Etudes are mostly much shorter.

Thus one cannot really expect them to be as musically developed as a longer work. But, for me, that doesn't make the huge majority of them less significant than the etudes of Rachmaninov or Liszt anymore than one would say the mostly very short Chopin Prelude(quite a few of which could pass as etudes) are minor works.


You know, I was going to give a counterexample, but I realized my counterexample runs 3 minutes -_-
(Rachmaninoff Moment Musical no.4 (op.16))

I guess on top of that, Rachmaninoff/Liszt etudes are much less focused.

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#2026059 - 02/02/13 09:39 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: argerichfan]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: JoelW
I don't get it... why is the musicality of Chopin's etudes being questioned?

They are NOT being questioned. You are welcome to ignore anyone who feels differently, they do not know what they are talking about. I could just as easily listen to the Opus 10 etudes as well as I could the Opus 28 preludes.

I do not understand the nonsense here.
Being arrogant and dismissive is rarely a good way to convince anyone of anything.

I happen to agree that the Chopin Etudes are very good music, but we've already had a few including a conservatory student who feel differently so their musical worth has clearly been questioned and by some sophisticated pianists. These are their opinions.

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#2026063 - 02/02/13 09:46 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
JoelW Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: JoelW
I don't get it... why is the musicality of Chopin's etudes being questioned?

They are NOT being questioned. You are welcome to ignore anyone who feels differently, they do not know what they are talking about. I could just as easily listen to the Opus 10 etudes as well as I could the Opus 28 preludes.

I do not understand the nonsense here.
Being arrogant and dismissive is rarely a good way to convince anyone of anything.

I happen to agree that the Chopin Etudes are very good music, but we've already had a few including a conservatory student who feel differently so their musical worth has clearly been questioned and by some sophisticated pianists. These are their opinions.


Probably only because of their titles... it might create some sort of prejudice. Now, obviously the op. 10 etudes are fairly early works by the young Chopin and are obviously lacking the mature complexity of his later compositions, but they're still marvelous gems -- rivaling his other compositions of the same time period. The op. 25, however, is an absolutely extraordinary collection of music and I don't see how anyone could question these colorful pieces' musicality. If they weren't entitled 'etudes' I'd bet people with such criticisms would think differently.

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#2026093 - 02/02/13 11:21 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: JoelW
I don't get it... why is the musicality of Chopin's etudes being questioned? They're all lovely little gems of music! (especially op. 25)

I couldn't disagree more!
It should have been "especially Op. 10." grin

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#2026098 - 02/02/13 11:30 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
trigalg693 Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Being arrogant and dismissive is rarely a good way to convince anyone of anything.

I happen to agree that the Chopin Etudes are very good music, but we've already had a few including a conservatory student who feel differently so their musical worth has clearly been questioned and by some sophisticated pianists. These are their opinions.


Thanks.

If I'm allowed to bring argumentum ad verecundiam into this, may I add that I believe most teachers (people with doctorates from prestigious conservatories) would agree with the "Chopin etudes do not stand very well as just music" camp.

Might I add that I agree that some of the etudes are good music that I enjoy listening to, but I like them for a similar reason to why I like some of Alkan's even more simplistic etudes; They are charming, but they don't move me the way the 4th Ballade does. If I didn't like how they sounded, I wouldn't have worked on op.10 no.4 for 1 year, or op.25 no.6 for 5 hours a day for a full month, but I don't really want to go to a concert and listen to someone play them either (hence, I did not pay 40 dollars to go see Lang Lang play a bunch of Chopin etudes last year).


Edited by trigalg693 (02/02/13 11:34 PM)

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#2026100 - 02/02/13 11:33 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: JoelW
I don't get it... why is the musicality of Chopin's etudes being questioned? They're all lovely little gems of music! (especially op. 25)

I couldn't disagree more!
It should have been "especially Op. 10." grin


You like op. 10 more?

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#2026104 - 02/02/13 11:47 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: JoelW
You like op. 10 more?

Yes, quite a bit.
But look -- I love them both.

Food for thought: Is it possible really to love two etude opuses at the same time? ha
(Or, if you prefer, etude opera.) grin

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#2026105 - 02/02/13 11:50 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: JoelW
You like op. 10 more?

Yes, quite a bit.
But look -- I love them both.

Food for thought: Is it possible really to love two etude opuses at the same time? ha
(Or, if you prefer, etude opera.) grin


I guess I just see op. 25 as being so much more colorful.

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#2026128 - 02/03/13 12:57 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: JoelW]
outo Offline
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IMO it's impossible to talk about musical worth objectively, there's always the element of personal taste involved. So I cannot be offended or even surprised that some of you think the etudes don't have much musical worth.

Anyway, I listen to the etudes in two ways: The whole cycle, which almost kind of melts into one larger work, a display of varied musical ideas and techniques. Then I may listen to individual ones. Not all of them are very interesting to me individually, so I would agree that their individual musical worth varies a lot. Have to admit I don't care for the revolutionary that much, but I never seem to get tired of hearing a good rendition of 10-2, maybe not so much because of deep musical worth, but the genious addictiveness of it grin

I think my enjoyment is actually increased because they are short. I often prefer shorter works of music. Maybe partly because I am very easily bored. I't so much better having to wish something lasted longer than wishing it ended already grin

I am not a fan of either Liszt or Rach, but I enjoy some of their compositions. I don't like everything written by old Fred either. I judge every piece of music individually, but some styles and forms appeal to me more than others.


Edited by outo (02/03/13 01:13 AM)

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#2026140 - 02/03/13 01:47 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: outo]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: outo
....Have to admit I don't care for the revolutionary that much....

I think there's a high chance that's totally because of its familiarity. It's a remarkable and striking piece of music -- musically.

As per what you said, of course that's subjective and personal. But I'm telling you. grin
In view of what your tastes and preferences seem to be, it's hard for me to imagine it wouldn't be that way for you.

The remarkableness of the music depends on an excellent performance, including good attention to dynamics -- which, as has been said, doesn't always happen, even in performances by top professionals.

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#2026142 - 02/03/13 01:54 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
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Back to the nature of cheating in etudes, I'm currently cheating the last bit of Liszt's "Un Sospiro". The right hand arpeggios are a bit ridiculous near the end, and I just cross over with my left hand...because hand crossing is one of the technical elements of this piece, and with only a week to learn it before performing it, putting in the extra practice isn't worth it.
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#2026144 - 02/03/13 01:55 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
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I don't know how anyone could not like the Revolutionary!

I even like it on the Organ! (With the LH on the pedal!)



Edited by Thrill Science (02/03/13 01:56 AM)
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#2026176 - 02/03/13 04:29 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Kuanpiano]
bennevis Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
Back to the nature of cheating in etudes, I'm currently cheating the last bit of Liszt's "Un Sospiro". The right hand arpeggios are a bit ridiculous near the end, and I just cross over with my left hand...because hand crossing is one of the technical elements of this piece, and with only a week to learn it before performing it, putting in the extra practice isn't worth it.


I do think that we probably obsess too much about playing music the way it's written rather than in the way that puts the music across better, or that suits our technique better, or that makes more sense to us. Most professional concert pianists have no such qualms, as I've witnessed often in live concerts.

Probably the most common is the redistribution of hands - just watch Mikhail Pletnev, who possesses one of the most transcendental techniques around, playing Chopin's last Prelude from Op.28: http://youtu.be/weNs4NuhJ0g
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#2026182 - 02/03/13 04:58 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
outo Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: outo
....Have to admit I don't care for the revolutionary that much....

I think there's a high chance that's totally because of its familiarity. It's a remarkable and striking piece of music -- musically.

As per what you said, of course that's subjective and personal. But I'm telling you. grin
In view of what your tastes and preferences seem to be, it's hard for me to imagine it wouldn't be that way for you.



It's true that too many bad/mediocre performances can totally ruin a piece for me...The revolutionary has it's moments, but I think it's just not so much to my musical taste as a whole. I'd say my favorites in addition to 10-2 are 10-6, 10-9, 10-10, 25-1, 25-07, 25-10, 25-12. But sometimes you hear a performance of the others that totally hits home grin

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#2026184 - 02/03/13 05:06 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: trigalg693]
stores Offline
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Originally Posted By: trigalg693
(hence, I did not pay 40 dollars to go see Lang Lang play a bunch of Chopin etudes last year).


Nor should you pay 40 dollars to go see LL play a bunch of anything... ever! At least you used the correct wording with "see", rather than "hear".
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#2026186 - 02/03/13 05:14 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: stores]
JoelW Offline
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Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: trigalg693
(hence, I did not pay 40 dollars to go see Lang Lang play a bunch of Chopin etudes last year).


Nor should you pay 40 dollars to go see LL play a bunch of anything... ever! At least you used the correct wording with "see", rather than "hear".


Oh shut up with this crap.

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#2026201 - 02/03/13 06:37 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
Damon Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
I like the Chopin etudes, but they strike me as pop tunes with a technical problem thrown on top. Hard to learn, easy to memorize.

Totally false!!!
(Although, the melody of the F major 10/8 does seem to stolen from an old Beef-A-Roni commercial.) ha



Do you mean they are easy to learn and hard to memorize?
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#2026357 - 02/03/13 02:19 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: argerichfan]
Damon Offline
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Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Damon

... and I don't dislike the etudes. But to compare them musically to Chopin's more thoughtful pieces is an exercise in worship, IMO.

Well I took note of the 'IMO', but I totally disagree. Your use of the word 'worship' is utterly insulting, I have no problem rating the etudes amongst the finest of Chopin's works.

Sorry mate, did you ever study music at uni?


I suppose this is some British thing to leave out articles, so I assume you mean any college or university as opposed to some place called uni? If so, yes.
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#2026364 - 02/03/13 02:25 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Damon
I suppose this is some British thing to leave out articles....

Yeah. smile
As near as I can tell, it's done with just a few nouns, "university" and "hospital" being the ones I've noticed.

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#2026383 - 02/03/13 03:34 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
currawong Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
I suppose this is some British thing to leave out articles....

Yeah. smile
As near as I can tell, it's done with just a few nouns, "university" and "hospital" being the ones I've noticed.
But don't you say "go to school" in the US?
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#2026385 - 02/03/13 03:42 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: currawong]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: currawong
But don't you say "go to school" in the US?

Good point! And that gets into an aspect of this that I thought of saying in the other post but didn't want to take up more space. smile

The thing is, those words in British apparently have a slightly different additional connotation -- as is the case for the word "school" in the U.S. When we say "go to school," the word has a slightly different, broader meaning than when we say go to a school.

The words "university" and "hospital" don't have such an additional broader meaning in the U.S, and that's why it sounds a little strange for us to hear them without any article. I'm guessing that in the U.K., they do.

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#2026395 - 02/03/13 04:01 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
currawong Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
The thing is, those words in British apparently have a slightly different additional connotation -- as is the case for the word "school" in the U.S. When we say "go to school," the word has a slightly different, broader meaning than when we say go to a school.
Yes, I'd noticed that you use "school" for just about every educational institution. Here we'd never say "school starts again this week" about college, or university, or anything other than, well, school, the school you go to from the age of 5-18 (approximately).
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
The words "university" and "hospital" don't have such an additional broader meaning in the U.S, and that's why it sounds a little strange for us to hear them without any article.
But "college" does have this broader meaning, like the way we use "university", yes?
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#2026403 - 02/03/13 04:24 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: currawong]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: currawong
But "college" does have this broader meaning, like the way we use "university", yes?

Yes, you're right!! That didn't occur to me.
Nice job.
You have a good ear for these things! smile

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#2026404 - 02/03/13 04:26 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: currawong]
bennevis Online   content
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Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
The thing is, those words in British apparently have a slightly different additional connotation -- as is the case for the word "school" in the U.S. When we say "go to school," the word has a slightly different, broader meaning than when we say go to a school.
Yes, I'd noticed that you use "school" for just about every educational institution. Here we'd never say "school starts again this week" about college, or university, or anything other than, well, school, the school you go to from the age of 5-18 (approximately).
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
The words "university" and "hospital" don't have such an additional broader meaning in the U.S, and that's why it sounds a little strange for us to hear them without any article.
But "college" does have this broader meaning, like the way we use "university", yes?


I used to think it odd that when chatting to Americans of well beyond school age, they say they go to school, until I realized they meant a higher establishment like university.

Luckily, most other ex-British colonies wink still use 'school' and 'university' in a manner understandable to us. Somehow, saying that you go to "Oxford School" doesn't sound as impressive as going to Oxford University. I wonder if "Harvard School" is just as good as Harvard University.....
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#2026406 - 02/03/13 04:29 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: bennevis]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: bennevis
....I wonder if "Harvard School" is just as good as Harvard University.....

A while back Bill Maher did a what-if 1799 version of his old Politically Incorrect show. One of the panelists said "Harvard School." It sounded pretty funny.

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#2026412 - 02/03/13 04:48 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
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The thread has somewhat departed from the original question.

And, I feel, I have to repeat my previous point:

That is, the opening C-c octave of the op. 10 no.1 etude is musically very important, therefore it has to be played as an octave.

I don't care for the other *cheats* the OP might consider, but I feel responsible at least to point out that dropping the top C in the first octave is totally a wrong *cheat*.

Sorry for interrupting the hijack.
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#2026455 - 02/03/13 06:15 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Hakki]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hakki
....the opening C-c octave of the op. 10 no.1 etude is musically very important, therefore it has to be played as an octave.

Agree completely -- and I hadn't noticed anyone saying they don't!
(I went back and do see it in the OP, loud and clear.)

It has to be the octave.
Has to be. smile

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#2026494 - 02/03/13 07:12 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
argerichfan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
I suppose this is some British thing to leave out articles....

Yeah. smile
As near as I can tell, it's done with just a few nouns, "university" and "hospital" being the ones I've noticed.

Sorry, I'm still learning American usage, sometimes this can be awkward. Yet when I talk to my mother in London, sometimes SHE can't figure out my Catch 22.
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#2026500 - 02/03/13 07:35 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Hakki]
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Originally Posted By: Hakki

That is, the opening C-c octave of the op. 10 no.1 etude is musically very important, therefore it has to be played as an octave.
The OP didn't suggest otherwise.

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#2026501 - 02/03/13 07:38 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Hakki

That is, the opening C-c octave of the op. 10 no.1 etude is musically very important, therefore it has to be played as an octave.
The OP didn't suggest otherwise.

Actually he did! (I missed it too.)

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#2026508 - 02/03/13 07:53 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
argerichfan Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

I happen to agree that the Chopin Etudes are very good music, but we've already had a few including a conservatory student who feel differently so their musical worth has clearly been questioned and by some sophisticated pianists. These are their opinions.

Well of course they are, but in all my musical years -pre-univerity, university, post-university- (and I am admittedly younger than you are)- I have never, EVER heard any experienced musician who has not the highest regard for the Chopin etudes, and I talked to many in London. Most recently Randolph Hokanson, who is still going strong in Seattle at 97!

After a fabulous concert featuring the Mozart K310 (which he thinks the greatest), I asked him about the worth of the Chopin etudes (because I have been wrestling with the issue), he just smiled and nodded. My friend Rob was there too, and can back me up.

Arrogant of me, perhaps, impatience is not one of my better qualities, terribly un-Christian. But I look at what Chopin has accomplished, you might as well tell me that the 2nd act of 'Walkure' is not one of the tightest spans of time that Wagner ever conceived.

Surprised that I need to defend such incredible music.
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#2026509 - 02/03/13 08:01 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: argerichfan]
beet31425 Offline
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Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

I happen to agree that the Chopin Etudes are very good music, but we've already had a few including a conservatory student who feel differently so their musical worth has clearly been questioned and by some sophisticated pianists. These are their opinions.

Well of course they are, but in all my musical years -pre-univerity, university, post-university- (and I am admittedly younger than you are)- I have never, EVER heard any experienced musician who has not the highest regard for the Chopin etudes, and I talked to many in London. Most recently Randolph Hokanson, who is still going strong in Seattle at 97!

After a fabulous concert featuring the Mozart K310 (which he thinks the greatest), I asked him about the worth of the Chopin etudes (because I have been wrestling with the issue), he just smiled and nodded. My friend Rob was there too, and can back me up.

Arrogant of me, perhaps, impatience is not one of my better qualities, terribly un-Christian. But I look at what Chopin has accomplished, you might as well tell me that the 2nd act of 'Walkure' is not one of the tightest spans of time that Wagner ever conceived.

Surprised that I need to defend such incredible music.


I'm a brother-in-arms with you in addition to your namesake here. I never thought the pure musical worth of Chopin's etudes was more suspect than other pillars of the literature.

-J
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#2026511 - 02/03/13 08:07 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Hakki

That is, the opening C-c octave of the op. 10 no.1 etude is musically very important, therefore it has to be played as an octave.
The OP didn't suggest otherwise.

Actually he did! (I missed it too.)
In his verbal description he leaves it out but in his adjusted score he shows the octave being played with the LH. So who knows what he does. Most of the discussion assumed he played the octave with the LH and then the following C with the LH instead of the notated RH.

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#2026514 - 02/03/13 08:14 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
Mark_C Offline
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....and that's just what I had assumed too, and I thought all we were talking about was playing the first RH note with the LH. I guess it was easy to miss what he said in the latter part of the post -- anyway we did grin and it seems a lot of others did too.

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#2026527 - 02/03/13 08:53 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Thrill Science Offline
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I just sat down and cheated my way through it a few more times to see what I actually do.

I do play the 8ve at the beginning, but take the first RH note with the LH thumb. It's already there, after all.

But at that other cheat I notated, I actually leave out a note. I hope I don't lose my piano license!
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#2026536 - 02/03/13 09:16 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
I do play the 8ve at the beginning, but take the first RH note with the LH thumb. It's already there, after all.

Cool -- our misunderstanding was right. ha

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#2026538 - 02/03/13 09:17 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
Mark_C Offline
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(Pretty neat, eh? Our instincts told us what not to see.) grin

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#2026557 - 02/03/13 10:21 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: beet31425]
argerichfan Offline
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Originally Posted By: beet31425

I'm a brother-in-arms with you in addition to your namesake here. I never thought the pure musical worth of Chopin's etudes was more suspect than other pillars of the literature.

thumb
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#2026598 - 02/03/13 11:51 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
Damon Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Hakki

That is, the opening C-c octave of the op. 10 no.1 etude is musically very important, therefore it has to be played as an octave.
The OP didn't suggest otherwise.


I think he did, but even so, I agree with Hakki and others that it needs to be an octave.


Edited by Damon (02/03/13 11:54 PM)
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#2026606 - 02/04/13 12:02 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Damon
I think he did....

He did but he didn't mean it. Those of us who (mis)understood otherwise based on an overall impression were right. ha

(See his last post.)

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#2026703 - 02/04/13 04:47 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
stores Offline
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I don't understand how it helps to take that "c" with the left thumb. It's not as though it's a difficult thing. If I'm going to actually "cheat", then make it a worthwhile thing that will actually help me.

There are certainly many other sets of etudes from various composers and we may (or may not) prefer these to Opp. 10 and 25, but anyone questioning the worth of these sets simply doesn't know what they are talking about. Period.
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#2026721 - 02/04/13 06:32 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: stores]
trigalg693 Offline
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Originally Posted By: stores

There are certainly many other sets of etudes from various composers and we may (or may not) prefer these to Opp. 10 and 25, but anyone questioning the worth of these sets simply doesn't know what they are talking about. Period.


They're valuable exercises just as Czerny op.299 is, no one is questioning that.

Maybe it's time you open your eyes to the world outside your own that doesn't consider most of these programmable pieces. There are a lot of people who would refuse to go to a concert to listen to a big name artist play a bunch of Chopin etudes rather than something more interesting which they would otherwise like to go see. I might not know what I'm talking about, but I'd like to think that people who graduated from Julliard and Moscow Conservatory and such would know what they're talking about.


Edited by trigalg693 (02/04/13 06:39 AM)

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#2026752 - 02/04/13 08:34 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: trigalg693]
Kuanpiano Offline
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Originally Posted By: trigalg693
Originally Posted By: stores

There are certainly many other sets of etudes from various composers and we may (or may not) prefer these to Opp. 10 and 25, but anyone questioning the worth of these sets simply doesn't know what they are talking about. Period.


They're valuable exercises just as Czerny op.299 is, no one is questioning that.

Maybe it's time you open your eyes to the world outside your own that doesn't consider most of these programmable pieces. There are a lot of people who would refuse to go to a concert to listen to a big name artist play a bunch of Chopin etudes rather than something more interesting which they would otherwise like to go see. I might not know what I'm talking about, but I'd like to think that people who graduated from Julliard and Moscow Conservatory and such would know what they're talking about.

Just cause you may not pay to listen to them performed doesn't reduce their musical value. I, and many others, wouldn't pay to listen to somebody play the Tchaikovsky piano concerto or the Schumann, because they've lost their freshness to me. Their place in music remains unchanged though.
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#2026787 - 02/04/13 09:31 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
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One of the best all-Chopin concerts I've attended in recent years was when Louis Lortie performed both sets of Etudes Op.10 & 25, plus the Trois nouvelles études which made up the novelty in his program.

It was not just his unflagging stamina, but his musicianship that kept everyone in the packed hall engrossed.

Personally, I prefer such a program to one made up of miscellaneous pieces like Waltzes, Scherzi, Ballades, Nocturnes, Mazurkas, Impromptus, Polonaises.....
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#2026795 - 02/04/13 09:38 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Kuanpiano]
trigalg693 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano

Just cause you may not pay to listen to them performed doesn't reduce their musical value. I, and many others, wouldn't pay to listen to somebody play the Tchaikovsky piano concerto or the Schumann, because they've lost their freshness to me. Their place in music remains unchanged though.


Thanks for ignoring the point.

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#2026816 - 02/04/13 10:12 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: trigalg693]
JoelW Offline
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Originally Posted By: trigalg693
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano

Just cause you may not pay to listen to them performed doesn't reduce their musical value. I, and many others, wouldn't pay to listen to somebody play the Tchaikovsky piano concerto or the Schumann, because they've lost their freshness to me. Their place in music remains unchanged though.


Thanks for ignoring the point.



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#2026829 - 02/04/13 10:55 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Nobody is questioning the worth of the etudes. Saying that one of the sonatas has more MUSICAL substance isn't questioning the worth of the etudes. At all. You are all misunderstanding this.
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#2026845 - 02/04/13 11:38 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Thrill Science Offline
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BTW: I never even thought about leaving out the middle notes in the LH chords of op 10/2. I tried that, and it's never sounded better! So far, the Chopin Police haven't busted down my door.
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#2026867 - 02/04/13 12:09 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
trigalg693 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
BTW: I never even thought about leaving out the middle notes in the LH chords of op 10/2. I tried that, and it's never sounded better! So far, the Chopin Police haven't busted down my door.


Back on topic, WHAT IS THIS?

I actually tried it the other day, but I thought it sounded off, unless by sounded better you mean that because it was easier to play. Still have mad respect for people like Trifonov who can play that etude at insane speeds (his op.25 no.6 makes me depressed every time too). I swear that guy has done gene therapy for his muscles to modify them or something, my thumb can't move as fast as his even if I'm not playing any other notes.


Edited by trigalg693 (02/04/13 12:10 PM)

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#2027018 - 02/04/13 04:57 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: trigalg693]
Kuanpiano Offline
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Edit: not going to bother...*


Edited by Kuanpiano (02/04/13 05:16 PM)
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#2027062 - 02/04/13 06:24 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: bennevis]
stores Offline
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Originally Posted By: bennevis
One of the best all-Chopin concerts I've attended in recent years was when Louis Lortie performed both sets of Etudes Op.10 & 25, plus the Trois nouvelles études


I've heard him with the same programme. He's brilliant and I agree that it was one of the best all Chopin recitals I've yet heard.
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#2027081 - 02/04/13 06:55 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Andromaque Offline
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Have not heard Lortie live yet but I have enjoyed his recordings. I have also enjoyed Trifonov's Chopin. In fact I am seeing / listening to him tomorrow in an interesting program mix:: The (Chopin) Preludes, Scriabin's second sonata and the Liszt sonata!

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#2027206 - 02/05/13 12:15 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: bennevis]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5512
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: bennevis
One of the best all-Chopin concerts I've attended in recent years was when Louis Lortie performed both sets of Etudes Op.10 & 25, plus the Trois nouvelles études which made up the novelty in his program.

Yes, that was one mind-blowing program.

I was joking with my colleague that Louis Lortie probably plays through that entire set every morning just to warm up.
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#2027887 - 02/06/13 05:53 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: AZNpiano]
wr Offline
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Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7893
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: bennevis
One of the best all-Chopin concerts I've attended in recent years was when Louis Lortie performed both sets of Etudes Op.10 & 25, plus the Trois nouvelles études which made up the novelty in his program.

Yes, that was one mind-blowing program.

I was joking with my colleague that Louis Lortie probably plays through that entire set every morning just to warm up.


He does seem to have it at the ready all the time - wasn't there a story a year or two ago where he filled in for someone with it at more or less a moment's notice?

I've heard him do it, too, and while it was an astonishing stunt (and AFAIAC, it is a stunt more than anything else), it solidified my feeling that the Chopin etudes played as sets do not make for good recital programming. And all three sets are just that much more dreadful. I remember thinking afterwards that, in spite of how excellent Lortie is, I spent way too much time thinking about when one etude would be over, and how he would play the next. I can't think of anyone I'd willingly go hear do that program again.

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#2027903 - 02/06/13 06:28 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
trigalg693 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 662
^^ +1

There are 2 etudes that I don't mind hearing, and those are op.25 no.6 and op.25 no.11, but everything else I don't really want to listen to. I used to like listening to op.10 no.4 since I thought it was impressive, but since I can play that one pretty fast now (well, if I revive it) it no longer awes me when someone pulls it off at a very quick tempo.

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#2027905 - 02/06/13 06:31 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: trigalg693]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4828
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: trigalg693
^^ +1

There are 2 etudes that I don't mind hearing, and those are op.25 no.6 and op.25 no.11, but everything else I don't really want to listen to. I used to like listening to op.10 no.4 since I thought it was impressive, but since I can play that one pretty fast now (well, if I revive it) it no longer awes me when someone pulls it off at a very quick tempo.


What about op. 25-3? Such a cute little piece! Trifinov plays it best.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLZ4WJiDldU#t=4m45s

Actually his 2, 3, 4 and 5 are all very good (these happen to be my favorite of the etudes)

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#2027912 - 02/06/13 06:54 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: JoelW]
trigalg693 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 662
Originally Posted By: JoelW

What about op. 25-3? Such a cute little piece! Trifinov plays it best.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLZ4WJiDldU#t=4m45s

Actually his 2, 3, 4 and 5 are all very good (these happen to be my favorite of the etudes)


Now that you mention it, I do like the main theme of 25-4 quite a bit, and same with the middle section of 25-5.

However I'd rather listen to Hamelin etude no.1 (triple etude) smile

EDIT: now that I go listen to Kissin play 10-4, I think I like it again? shocked


Edited by trigalg693 (02/06/13 07:40 AM)

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#2028377 - 02/06/13 09:01 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Vid
How do you manage that? Can you post the fingering (if you dare)?

OK, you dragged it out of me. ha

All I need to do is say the first few notes, and you could figure out the rest. First of all I do what Thrill said grin and then on the next 4 notes (G-C-E-C) the RH does 1-2-4-2, then shifts up to play the next 4 notes the same way, and so on. Sometimes it's 1-3-5-3 or 1-2-5-2 or whatever, depending on how the notes lay out. And where you can't take the first RH note of a figure with the LH, you use 2 and then jump the thumb to the next note. (And BTW maybe sometimes you actually have to 'stretch' as much as an octave, don't remember for sure, glad to say I haven't done this stupid trick in years.)

It's a genuine felony. grin


LOL - And you're cheating on the easy parts! What's the cheat on the A arpeggios and such? That's where a cheat could be useful smile
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#2028381 - 02/06/13 09:06 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: jazzwee]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4828
Loc: USA
Online content
6000 Post Club Member Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6666
Loc: So. California

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#2028406 - 02/06/13 10:10 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: jazzwee]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
LOL - And you're cheating on the easy parts! What's the cheat on the A arpeggios and such? That's where a cheat could be useful smile

Yeah, that's a little different.... grin
2*12 4212 4212 etc.
(Or, grouping the notes as they lie in the hand,
2* 1242 1242 etc.)

* Or, following the cheat in the OP, you can take that first RH note with the LH. smile


Edited by Mark_C (02/06/13 10:16 PM)

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#2028412 - 02/06/13 10:18 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: JoelW
6666

How about we try that fingering.... grin

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#2028533 - 02/07/13 04:05 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: JoelW]
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 605
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: JoelW
You like op. 10 more?

Yes, quite a bit.
But look -- I love them both.

Food for thought: Is it possible really to love two etude opuses at the same time? ha
(Or, if you prefer, etude opera.) grin


I guess I just see op. 25 as being so much more colorful.


Agreed. Now, i'm not Chopin's biggest fan, but his op. 25 is my favourite Chopin work, and probably in my top 10 solo piano works overall. I also like Op. 10 quite a lot, but to me 25 is in a different league.


Edited by pianojosh23 (02/07/13 04:06 AM)

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#2028539 - 02/07/13 04:27 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4828
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: JoelW
6666

How about we try that fingering.... grin


lol

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