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#2021771 - 01/26/13 05:15 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
piano_deb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 787
Loc: Memphis, TN

Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
OK, new threads per piece. Do we want to start a new thread for Lili Marlene, or start a new thread with the next piece?

Would people like to see different threads for various areas of music theory? For example, major keys, minor keys, chords, intervals? Or a general music theory thread separate from the pieces threads? I'm not sure how well this idea can work because I think all the topics bleed into each other, and discussion of areas of music theory also bleeds into the analysis of any particular piece. And it's the nature of discussion on all of these threads that more advanced topics get asked about even as some people are still working through the basic topics. But I'm willing to try it if people think it would be helpful.

The Lili Marlene discussion is already pretty well underway, so I say start a new thread with the next piece.

I also prefer individual threads to focus on specific pieces rather than concepts for all the reasons you mention. Doing so will provide enough of a framework for people at all levels to meet and have something discuss, but still allow for chasing rabbits, as my teacher calls it. Lots of rabbits to be chased in any discussion involving music theory/analysis ...

Originally Posted By: torquenale
I would start with a new thread for the next piece. And why don't we use a code giving the order, something like:
Analysis 02_Title of piece after Lili Marlene
Analysis 03_Title of the next piece
and so on.
So it's possible start from the beginning and follow the path, or if I don't understand something I go back to the previous threads looking for topics already covered.
If the threads are intended to "build" from one to another (perhaps posing more difficult pieces of music as we go along?), then, yes, numbering would be very useful. And it can't hurt, even if people don't chose to read them "in order." I suspect there's going to be lots of repetition of the basics in each thread, and people are certainly free to focus on the pieces that interest them.

I do recommend that the first numbered thread be 01 not 02, and that the first post include a big bold statement that the conversation started in this thread (linked, of course). That way, people can read this conversatin, know why we're creating numbered individual threads, and all that ... and we're not constantly responding to posters who write, "I can't find Analysis_01. Is there an 01? Where's 01?!" laugh
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#2022034 - 01/27/13 08:13 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
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Registered: 12/11/07
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We discussed having separate threads before this was set up, and we discussed it again at the beginning. Various people were against it, which is why we have this format. Over in the Sonata thread we have successfully used the bold feature to highlight the name of the piece being discussed. I'm behind about 3 pieces over there, so I'll be using the feature liberally.

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#2022131 - 01/27/13 11:16 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3156
Loc: Maine
The suggestion for separate threads keeps coming up from participants, and the preference for one thread seems to only come from a few of the thread organizers, so that is why I have changed my mind and think we should switch to separate threads.
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#2022223 - 01/27/13 02:25 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
Mark... Offline
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Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 4373
Loc: Jersey Shore
I think if you use separate threads, more people will get involved. When you see a mile long thread, I think people shy away.

Some pieces people will pass on and when a popular piece shows up people will dive in...

my 2 cents...

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#2022280 - 01/27/13 04:59 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11572
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To the newcomers - welcome - and are there any questions about what has been discussed so far? smile

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#2022309 - 01/27/13 05:57 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: Mark...]
piano_deb Offline
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Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 787
Loc: Memphis, TN
Originally Posted By: Mark...
I think if you use separate threads, more people will get involved. When you see a mile long thread, I think people shy away.

Some pieces people will pass on and when a popular piece shows up people will dive in...

my 2 cents...

That's my feeling, too. Some find it daunting to dive into a long thread just as a reader. Posting is another challenge, especially if one wants to respond to statements that were made many pages earlier. Not everyone is comfortable posting several topics behind the discussion, or is willing to wade through numerous posts about more recent topics in the hope of finding possible responses to their late post on the earlier topic. (Darn, that was a crazy sentence, huh? I hope it makes sense.)

PianoStudent88: You mentioned thread "organizers." Besides you and keystring, I gather, smile who's going to be running this show? Can general participants, particularly beginners who can't necessarily lead the discussion, recommend/provide musical selections for analysis?


Edited by piano_deb (01/27/13 09:18 PM)
Edit Reason: typos
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Charles Walter 1500
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#2022372 - 01/27/13 07:47 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3156
Loc: Maine
"Organizers" is probably a poor and misleading choice of words. Before I kicked this off, I checked in with keystring, Richard (zrtf90) and Greener, as the most active people on the other analysis thread. The shape of the OP was entirely at my own instigation.

Everyone is welcome to join in both asking questions and giving answers, and also suggesting pieces to look at. I have a general idea in mind of topics that approximately build on each other which I would like to work into some progression of pieces.
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#2022426 - 01/27/13 09:16 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
piano_deb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 787
Loc: Memphis, TN
It's wonderful how much thought and care you're putting into this PianoStudent88 ... or may I call you 88? smile

I'm more excited about this thread than anything else on PW. Although I arrived late and didn't post anything about "Happy Birthday," I had a lot of fun analyzing it -- and was ridiculously proud of sorting out all the various bits correctly. That may sound like a small victory, but it means that my teacher's very patient and repetitious explanations of time signatures, key signatures, inversions, what turns a G maj. chord into a G7 chord, etc. is starting to percolate through my apparently rock-hard brain. Halleluiah!


Edited by piano_deb (01/27/13 09:17 PM)
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Deborah
Charles Walter 1500
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#2022440 - 01/27/13 09:38 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: Greener]
Valencia Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 244
Lili Marlene

Originally Posted By: Greener

I will try to help with some of this Valencia. But, only the parts I feel confident with. I'll leave the rest for the experts. I've just learned most of this stuff myself, on the Sonata Analysis thread.

2. Time Signature: The C is for Common Time. 4/4 is the most common. So, correct this is in 4/4 common time.

3. Key: Your analysis is dead on. Yes, this is in the key of C for the reasons you have explained.

4. Melody: For help with determining what KS has asked us to look for, I would absolutely suggest listening to recordings. It isn't cheating. Try and become very familiar with it through this type of review, before even playing your first note. Personally, if I tried to do much of this from just the score, I would be in trouble. Use, whatever is available to you is my advice.

6. Voicing: How are you playing the chords now? If you are playing the chords as a block in your LH, you could try splitting up the block between L and RH for these few chords, to see the difference and see if you like it.

The new Video KS has posted shows several variations of playing the same tune and some give an entirely different mood. This is partly voicing and partly style and expression.


Thanks for your help Greener. smile I was playing the chords exactly as they were written on the score. but today tried to play them in broken chord form just for fun (since I'm doing song without words 85/1 for the recital which has lots of broken chords in it). I see now how I can move the notes in the chord around slightly and it still sounds ok with the melody (as in change their position octavewise on the keyboard). I'll give the video a listen to all the variations.

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#2022579 - 01/28/13 02:23 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: keystring]
JohnSprung Offline
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Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1250
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: keystring

Ah, I see it now. Measures 14 - 15 (end) have been fixed, but m. 10 - 11 still have the problem.


That's right. I'll do the bar 10 - 11 fix tomorrow. That appears to be the last of the fixes.
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#2022589 - 01/28/13 02:37 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: piano_deb]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1250
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: piano_deb
Can general participants, particularly beginners who can't necessarily lead the discussion, recommend/provide musical selections for analysis?


Yes, it's already happened. Lili Marlene was all my fault. ;-)
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Knabe Grand # 10927
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Kawai FS690

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#2022922 - 01/28/13 03:42 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: JohnSprung]
JohnSprung Offline
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Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1250
Loc: Reseda, California
Lili Marlene, final (I hope?) corrected version


Here it is, very possibly the final corrected version of Lili Marlene

The following link is *NOT* me playing -- it's the digital output from the MuseScore program saved as MP3:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Norbert_Schultze_Lili_Marlene_C_GS_Analysis2d.mp3

And here's the corresponding PDF:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Norbert_Schultze_Lili_Marlene_C_GS_Analysis2d.pdf
_________________________
-- J.S.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

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#2022980 - 01/28/13 05:04 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
Valencia Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 244
Lili Marlene

thanks for uploading this recent version john. smile

I noticed when playing it at the piano that in many places, the chords that are "7" chords could also be played just as regular chords without it sounding wrong. Are the 7th chords mostly to add richness to the sound? The one in the LH at the end of bar 7 sounds like it shifts the sound, but for example, in bar 5, when I play that Dm chord without the 7, it sounds ok to me too.

Also, in measure 6, the second chord is listed as being a D minor chord. Could it also still be played as a G major chord? (I know the first chord in that bar is a G7, but I was just playing it as a G major and it sounded alright to me...).

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#2022992 - 01/28/13 05:33 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3156
Loc: Maine
JohnSprung, I notice that on the C#dim chord, it's labeled as ii/vii°. That should be vii°/ii. (I wonder if I typed it wrong when I answered your original question about it.)

I would add the "7" notation to the Roman numeral notation for all the 7 chords e.g. ii7, V7. Without the 7 it implies a triad.

Valencia, I think sometimes the 7 is there for colour, and sometimes it's there for a specific effect of leading to the next chord.

For an example of the specific effect of leading to the next chord, look at the C7 in m.7 followed by F in m.8. The C7 includes the notes E and Bb. The interval between these notes is known as a "diminished fifth" and Western harmony of a certain era treats it as an unstable interval, that wants to change, or "resolve", to some pair of notes forming a different, more settled, interval. (Even earlier Western music didn't permit that interval at all.) In this case, the Bb in the C7 chord moves down a half-step to A in the F chord, and the E in the C7 chord moves up a half-step to F in the F chord. This creates a very stable sense of arriving at the F chord.

For another example, look at G7 in m.14 followed by C in m. 15. The diminished fifth this time is between the notes B and F. The F in the G7 chord moves down a half-step to the E in the C chord, and the B in the G7 chord moves up a half-step to the C in the C chord. This creates a very stable sense of conclusion.

Series of chords that end a phrase are called a cadence, and this is a "V7-I" cadence. It is very very common. You probably recognize the sound, even if you haven't studied the details of it before.

Diminished fifths: play the notes B and F. Play them together and separately. Can you hear that this sounds different from the sound of B followed by F#, or B together with F#? If you've been working with the major triads that keystring described (all-white, oreos, reverse oreos, etc.) you may recognize B-F# as the outside of the B major triad BD#F#. This is a "perfect fifth": F# is the fifth letter over from B, and there are 7 half-steps from B to F#. Now look at B-F. F also counts as "the fifth letter over from B", but there are only 6 half-steps from B to F. This is a "diminished fifth", and it's always one half-step smaller than a perfect fifth.

In the same way, explore the diminished fifth E-Bb, compared to the perfect fifth E-B (which is the outside of the E major triad EG#B).

What other perfect fifths and diminished fifths can you find at the keyboard? Listen to them. (One way to find perfect fifths is as the outside notes of any major or minor triad in root position.)
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#2023109 - 01/28/13 09:56 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
tinman1943 Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 04 2013


Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 61
Loc: NC
Hi All,
I'd like to join this discussion, but it will take me a while to catch up
(I just finished page 1 of 9). Is there a way to "bookmark" my place in the forum?

I don't know whether y'all covered this yet,
but my pet peeve with sheet music is that it doesn't match the "poetry" of the music;
instead, it's printed like "prose".

For example, most songs use 4-bar phrases,
but most publishers just put as many bars on a line as will fit,
regardless of where the music phrases break.

So when I "analyze" a piece, one of the first things I do is break it up into phrases,
and if I'm really motivated, I'll put it in an editor
and reprint it with line breaks matching the phrase breaks.

BTW, as for songs, I've been thinking of creating a list of "10 songs everyone should know."
Happy Birthday was #1 on my list, along with your national anthem, your school song,
maybe some songs for popular holidays, etc.
In other words, if you were the only piano player at a social gathering,
what songs would you most likely be asked to play?
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Adult Learner: PianoMagic
--Music is poetry; why print it like prose?--

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#2023238 - 01/29/13 03:25 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: Valencia]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1250
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: Valencia
Lili Marlene
I noticed when playing it at the piano that in many places, the chords that are "7" chords could also be played just as regular chords without it sounding wrong. Are the 7th chords mostly to add richness to the sound? The one in the LH at the end of bar 7 sounds like it shifts the sound, but for example, in bar 5, when I play that Dm chord without the 7, it sounds ok to me too.

Also, in measure 6, the second chord is listed as being a D minor chord. Could it also still be played as a G major chord? (I know the first chord in that bar is a G7, but I was just playing it as a G major and it sounded alright to me...).


Are 7th's really absolutely necessary? Sometimes. But sometimes you can get away with dropping back to a simple triad, and as you observed, it's not so bad.

Consider Irving Berlin's "White Christmas", bars 9 and 10, the lyrics "tree tops glisten". The first three notes have E for the melody line, and the chords go C, CMaj7, C7. The only change is that the second time you have a B, and the third time a B flat, added to what you started with. Just plain C all three times wouldn't be nearly as good.

The same thing happens the other way. I sometimes catch myself adding a 7th where only a triad is written. That happens a lot with the ii chord, playing ii7 (Dm7 in this case) instead.

In addition to 7ths, there are some less frequently added notes, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, that you can also get away with dropping in some cases. The higher the number, the less it seems to matter.

Staying on G7 instead of going to the Dm kinda works in bar 6. The main reason to go to Dm is that there's also G7 ahead of this in bar 5 and after it in bar 7, which gets to be monotonous, like a bagpipe drone. If you hold down all the keys for G7 and Dm above it, you'll notice that it's just every other white key from G up past the octave to an A, which is a G9 chord. So, what you have are two subsets of that bigger G9. It's sort of a bigger version of the "Oom Pah" trick of playing the root, then going to the third and fifth, and back to the root.


(Edit: I'm just assuming here that everybody knows Irving Berlin's music. But am I wrong about that?)


Edited by JohnSprung (01/29/13 03:38 AM)
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Knabe Grand # 10927
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#2023244 - 01/29/13 03:50 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1250
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
JohnSprung, I notice that on the C#dim chord, it's labeled as ii/vii°. That should be vii°/ii. .... I would add the "7" notation to the Roman numeral notation for all the 7 chords e.g. ii7, V7.

Diminished fifths:


I'll put those fixes into the files.

Perhaps it's worth noting that the diminished fifth works out to be the same as an augmented fourth. A fifth plus a fourth adds up to an octave, as does a fourth plus a fifth. This weird diminished fifth/augmented fourth is exactly in the middle of the octave. It's also sometimes called a Tritone.
_________________________
-- J.S.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

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#2023521 - 01/29/13 03:45 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: JohnSprung]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1250
Loc: Reseda, California
Lili Marlene, final (I hope?) corrected version


Here it is again, with PS88's corrections to the Roman numerals.

The following link is *NOT* me playing -- it's the digital output from the MuseScore program saved as MP3:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Norbert_Schultze_Lili_Marlene_C_GS_Analysis2e.mp3

And here's the corresponding PDF:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Norbert_Schultze_Lili_Marlene_C_GS_Analysis2e.pdf
_________________________
-- J.S.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

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#2024662 - 01/31/13 01:49 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
tinman1943 Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 04 2013


Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 61
Loc: NC
Lili Marlene 2e
RE: the C#dim chord in M13.
I thought someone earlier called it #Idim7 or #io7 rather than viio.
The sharp i makes more sense to me since the bass is ascending from C to D,
rather than descending to B. Besides, wouldn't the other alternative have to be a flat seven, since the chord tone is Bb, but the seventh note of C major is B natural.
I may be confused about Roman Letter chord names,
especially in an example like this, where essentially all four notes are modified (vs. the C triad):
raised root, minor 3rd, dim fifth, and dom 7th.
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#2024666 - 01/31/13 02:07 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11572
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A partial answer to Tinman

We have movement going on. The primary movement is V7-I, which is G7 to C at the end of the piece. Going backward, you have Dm7 to G7. In the circle of fifths, D is the dominant chord of G major or minor, and even if it is Dm here because it is staying diatonic (keeping the notes of the key signature) it is giving that sense of movement. Then going back further, you have this C#dim. C#dim is the viio chord of D major or minor which is also a movement. C#dim also constitutes the top notes of A7 (AC#EG) which is the V7 of D major or minor. So the viio/ii reflects that. You almost have a V/V/V (A7 is V/D, D is V/G, G is V/C) all of which creates a movement leading to resolution.

Meanwhile - in regards to the C#dim - It's breaking the rule or advice to avoid having diminished chords (viio) in root position. Does it sound odd or ok here?


Edited by keystring (01/31/13 02:47 PM)

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#2024671 - 01/31/13 02:25 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
tinman1943 Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 04 2013


Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 61
Loc: NC
RE: Next Piece
What is the attraction of Burgmueller for analysis?
I had the impression that this was just "finger exercises",
not serious music, although I'm sure it illustrates many technical points.

I do think one of the problems of "analysis" of beginner music
is that the music has often been so modified in timing or harmony or voicing
to make it "easy to play" that some really interesting musical aspects
of the original composition have been lost or obscured.

I'd like to see a mix of popular and classical selections.
For classical, I'm fond of The Anna Magdalena Notebook,
but I think it might be more useful to cover a variety of composers and periods.
I have a book called Great Piano Music Vol 1 by Ada Richter (Theo. Presser, 1981)
with a variety of graded 1-2 page "easy" solos from 20 different composers from Bach to Bartok.

In the popular vein, I'd like to see some analysis of jazz.
(My teacher has been pushing me into it!)
I understand it uses different scales and more complex harmonies
(a lot of 7 9 11 and 13 chords)
but on the other hand is the basis for contemporary pop/rock and gospel/praise music.
But maybe that's a subject worthy of it's own "analysis" forum!
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Adult Learner: PianoMagic
--Music is poetry; why print it like prose?--

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#2024717 - 01/31/13 03:17 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3156
Loc: Maine
tinman1943, that was me who mentioned #Idim. I also mentioned vii°. But I didn't call it just vii°, I called it vii°/ii. The "/ii" is an important part of that chord name. These two names -- #Idim7 and vii°/ii -- are coming from two different systems of naming chords.

#Idim means it's the diminished triad built on the sharped tonic of the key: that is, C#dim. This comes from a system that always relates the roman numeral for the chord to the notes of the major scale for the piece. This is the system I will use on this thread.

vii°/ii comes from a different system which I will not normally use on this thread. The notations means: first look at the number after the slash, ii. That means find the minor key built on the second degree (that is, note) of the piece's scale. The piece is in C major, the second degree is D, and in particular the triad built on D out of notes in C major is D minor: DFA. So D minor is our temporary key for the purposes of interpreting this chord symbol. Next look at the number before the slash, vii°. That means consider the (temporary) key of D minor and find the diminished triad built on the raised seventh note of the D minor scale (or the seventh note of the harmonic D minor scale). This is C#dim.

So exactly the same chord is meant by both symbols, #Idim and vii°/ii.

Just to make things more complex, the slash notation with Roman numerals on both sides of the slash that I described in this post is different from the slash notation that we will normally use on this thread, e.g. C/G to mean a C chord with G as the lowest note.

You're right that a plain vii° in C major would have meant Bdim.

(I started this a while ago, so now it's cross-posted. I like keystring's reply to tinman above, because it talks about musically the progression of chords and how they're leading one to the next. My post here is a purely technical post focused on the mechanics of naming chords.)


Edited by PianoStudent88 (01/31/13 03:20 PM)
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#2024726 - 01/31/13 03:34 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3156
Loc: Maine
tinman1943, good suggestions about pieces. Burgmüller's studies include some good pieces such as Ballade and Arabesque. It depends on your musical tastes as to whether you find most of the other studies interesing or not. I'm quite fond of orderly and straightforward music, so I like the studies, but I know I have some odd tastes.

Anyway, the reason for proposing to tackle Burgmüller before the Anna Magdalena Bach Notebook was that I think that the harmony is easier to analyze in Burgmüller than in AMBN. Also I think that for people who may be coming out of mostly chord playing, Burgmüller's style is easier than the counterpoint of the AMBN.

I think there's value in looking at simpler pieces to get the basics of analysis out of the way before tackling pieces that are more complex, in particular that are more complex in being able to identify the harmonies.

That said, I'm not attached to any exact piece. If pieces from your Great Piano Music Vol I are available on imslp, we can work on them too.

I know almost nothing about jazz, but maybe there are others on the thread who know more and could guide us in jazz analysis. Do you have any pieces in mind?

I do have a piece I want to do next, which is America (a.k.a. God Save The Queen for our Commonwealth pianists). The reason is to give us some more practice in identifying a wider variety of chords, and to continue looking at chord progressions.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (01/31/13 04:35 PM)
Edit Reason: imslp, not imdb!
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#2024734 - 01/31/13 04:02 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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And one more post: tinman1943, is this the book you have?
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#2025051 - 02/01/13 04:16 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
JohnSprung Offline
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
That said, I'm not attached to any exact piece.


Indeed, why even be attached to the notion of doing complete pieces one at a time? To cover topics and make points, why not present them using little snippet examples, perhaps just a bar or two -- like the example from "White Christmas" above.
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#2025068 - 02/01/13 04:56 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: JohnSprung]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
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Originally Posted By: JohnSprung
To cover topics and make points, why not present them using little snippet examples, perhaps just a bar or two -- like the example from "White Christmas" above.
The problem with isolating fragments is that this thread becomes more like a course of instruction that could skip real world features and they can get swept under the carpet.

By looking at complete pieces every event comes under scrutiny and the learning is more homogenous with no stone unturned.

We move from learning the theory as an interesting by-product that aids understanding into learning theory, with a real world example or two, but scant idea of its effect within the larger context of a piece and thus devoid of interest, meaning or purpose.

Here we are looking at all the theory necessary to understand a particular piece and learning it by understanding its function rather than learning a dull checklist of how it can be used. The learning is motivated by the desire to understand a piece of music and its effects.

A course of instruction might look at a particular type of cadence and show its basic function. Then you come across real world examples that aren't so basic and you feel betrayed.

Here we look at all the cadences in a piece and build a catalogue of functions from real examples. No cadences get overlooked. The knowledge is empirical and more complete but also with doorways to other avenues, not a closed book.
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#2025360 - 02/01/13 02:57 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90


A course of instruction might look at a particular type of cadence and show its basic function. Then you come across real world examples that aren't so basic and you feel betrayed.


On this general idea: When I began harmony theory the traditional way, each book that I got had something missing. All of them restricted themselves to common patterns while real music is not that narrow. Even for the "traditional in Bach's time", when they finally showed Bach, they warned us not to break the rules that Bach broke! One of the books has a tiny note for teachers saying that it is all simplified, and if they want to expand with their students, please go ahead.

Meanwhile, what we did was exercises. You learned about primary (I, IV, V) and secondary (ii,iii, vi, viio) chords, and how each was used, and then you wrote exercises. You never actually saw this applied in music. Well, then I found a book that did try to do what JohnSprung suggested - use small excerpts. Now this was still from the point of view of the theory being taught, rather than figuring things out from a piece. So this book taught the same chord-thing as Sarnecki, but it added pieces. For every item of theory, there were around 40 (!) excerpts from music. If it taught about I64 V7 I (which they name V64 V7 I) then you found it in those 40 pieces and saw how it was applied. If the tritone that you find in any V7 (BF) moves to a give place in a V7 I progression, then you drew arrows in these excerpts, to catch the movement.

There was a huge weakness! They had to search far and wide, and the excerpts were out of context. As a student I wasn't familiar with the pieces, but my teacher spotted it. He would say that excerpt X was near the end of some section in that movement, where there was a modulation and other things going on, and musically the example was wrong. If a student were learning to hear and understand music, this killed that kind of hearing and understanding. It was great for passing tests (my opinion) but not for being a musician.

Therefore I do tend to endorse the wholeness idea. There are weaknesses in doing theory in this form, and some real study of each item should probably be done as well.

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#2025600 - 02/01/13 09:09 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: keystring]
tinman1943 Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 04 2013


Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 61
Loc: NC
Originally Posted By: keystring
A partial answer to Tinman

C#dim is the viio chord of D major or minor which is also a movement. C#dim also constitutes the top notes of A7 (AC#EG) which is the V7 of D major or minor. So the viio/ii reflects that. You almost have a V/V/V (A7 is V/D, D is V/G, G is V/C) all of which creates a movement leading to resolution.


Wow! I never thought of it that way. So if you create a sequence of Dom7 around the circle of fifths, then the 3-7 (alternately inverted) of those chords forms a chromatic sequence of aug4/dim5/tritones! So is that why the circle of fifths (or a dim progression) "works"?

Example: bold are the Dom7 roots; cols 2 and 4 are the dim5, "=" means natural
E= G# B= D=
__ G= A= C# E= G=
D= F# A= C=
__ F= G= B= D= F=
C= E= G= Bb
__ Eb F= A= C= Eb
Bb D= F= Ab

etc.
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#2025610 - 02/01/13 09:27 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
tinman1943 Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 04 2013


Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 61
Loc: NC
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
RE tinman1943 C#dim
.... These two names -- #Idim7 and vii°/ii -- are coming from two different systems of naming chords....
Just to make things more complex, the (above) is different from the slash notation that we will normally use on this thread, e.g. C/G to mean a C chord with G as the lowest note.


Good explanation.
I don't recall ever seeing the roman/roman notation before;
I had it confused with the "normal" one.

But it relates to an interesting point: why does the 'leading tone" lead?

I'm thinking that trying to do analysis in terms of chord name of whatever system just leads to a lot of seemingly arbitrary rules.

But doing the analysis in terms of actual intervals (concurrent and sequential)
expressed as "just" frequency ratios (such as 2:3 for a "fifth") might lead to an actual understanding of why the music works.

In the end, we'll have the same rules, but we might have a better understanding of why they are the rules.
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#2025648 - 02/01/13 11:15 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
tinman1943 Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 04 2013


Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 61
Loc: NC
Next Piece?
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
RE tinman1943, is this the book you have?


That's it: Great Piano Music, ed. Ada Richter
JCF Bach: Country Dance
JS Bach: Minuet
Bartok: Copy Cat; Indian Dance
Beethoven: Rondo a Capriccio
Diabelli, Moderato
Gretchaninoff, Sailing
Gurlitt: Landler; Micchievous Child
Haydn: Minuet
Krieger: Bourree
Loeschhorn: Song without words
Mozart: aria; Minuet in F major
Mueller: Andantino
Neefe: Canzonet
Notebook for Anna Magdalena Bach: Chorale 8
Ornstein: Listen to the Drums
Rameau: Menuet
Schumann: Canzonetta
Schytte: Cantibile; Polka
Wanhal: Theme from a Sonatina
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