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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,332
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Finished regulating the dampers and the rest of the action on Andy's Lester spinet which had new dampers installed last week. Tuned it the best I could in the time I had. There could be a few bugs left in it but the repetition speed has to be experienced to believe! There were three or four geometry problems to solve but once they were, the action is as responsive as any piano action could ever be.
Not an easy piano to tune. A lot of false beats in the treble and a lot of inharmonicity throughout. The Bass sounds sharp no matter what you do.
I used a technique for the spoon adjustment I learned over 30 years ago from a film shown at a PTG Chapter meeting. No way could I ever get the tool made for that to work. Glad I know the alternative. Do tell, Bill! Do tell! BTW PTG has a stockpile of old films. I suggested at one point that we have them put on DVD so we don't lose them. Celluloid gets more and more brittle. I'll have to bring this up again! I bet there are a few gems.
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Joined: Jun 2010
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Couple of cancellations today due to lots of stuff going around. Started off with an 80's vintage Kimball console that was around 30 cents flat. From there, off to another home with a 1940's Kimball grand, roughly on pitch. Then trucked on over to a college to take a look at an old M&H BB that was throwing fits. Turns out pretty much every action screw was loose with the dry heat in the room baking it. After that, a really nice Petrof console. Nice paced day.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 961
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Just finished a lighter week due to a huge ice storm we had here in Michigan. Had probably 6-8 reschedules, so my days were easier...but somebody told my wife/boss/partner and she made sure we were in the shop late each night working on restoration projects we have here!
But, a week with an average of 3 or 4 tunings per day is easier than my typical frantic pace LOL! And, tonight some yoga and a bit of loud music...hmmmm...Rusted Root, methinks.
RPD
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America) Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association) (Subscriber PTG Journal) Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com DEALER Hailun Pianos
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Couple of missed notes here (pun intended) that I would like to reply to. First, hope you heal up quick and easy Jerry. Also about the round nosed pliers for string looping... here is a tip. Model railroaders use a pair of pliers designed to rebend and adjust their model train couplers. It has several diameter sizes and is stout enough for piano wire. I have used a pair for years, and they work great. Will see if I can maybe post a picture for you all to see. But check out a hobby supply store thathas model train supplies and "Kaddee" couplers. They should be able to get it for you and it is very worth the price. You can bend AND unbend the loop to fit. My biggest project of late was that I found (with the help of another tech in the area) a Mason and Hamlin A for our church at a "steal" price... $1000. The bottom 2 strings buzzed on the harp (????!!!!) and examination discovered the bass bridge had cracked and dimpled the soundboard. The owner did not know this, and other techs had looked and missed this. (duh) I purchased the piano, put a patch under the soundboard, jacking it up to level by using a prop like a violin soundpeg from the top of the far leg support, glued, screwed and let dry, and removed the prop. Lost virtually no sound off of the bass end, cured the problem, and the piano is holding pitch wonderfully. And unless you crawl down and look from the bottom, the repair is un-noticeable. Hmmm, yep, a new soundboard would fix it, and yes it is a patched repair, but it works, and it was far cheaper than a soundboard. The bass on this M&H is to be envied, wow, what a sound, and the results of the repair tell me that it has many more years ahead of it.
Robert Noble, Noble Piano Services, Mansfield, OH
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,864
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A customer had a Kawai Studio with factory midi and hammer stop rail (silent rail). The customer had "adjusted" the action due to poor repetition. He figured out that adjusting the bridals just right made the hammers return faster, so he punched another hole in the bridle straps to adjust them shorter. Ha Ha.
I demonstrated the correct method of bending the bridle wire.
The silent stop rail was adjusted to stop the hammers about 1/2 inch from the strings, which meant that let off was adjusted 3/4 inch from the strings. Some lost motion too.
Amazingly, the piano still played, albeit badly. I tuned the piano and adjusted one note to make sure it would adjust ok, and left him a quote on a full reg. I bet, he uses that one note as a sample and attempts to adjust the action again himself.
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Joined: Jun 2010
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Crazy ice/snow storm here today! A total of 8 tunings, but fortunately they were in only 2 locations. First was a new Hobart M. Cable console piano for a private owner. After that, 7 various old pianos at a convent. I lucked out since I didn't have to drive all over the place in this weather! Anyway, a good finish to a busy week. Now tomorrow is Saturday and I plan on doing a whole lot of NOTHING! Except watch some movies and play Arena Football on the Xbox.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 109
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I took a picture of my work by a video camera recently. I often notice. Could you give me any advice ? my work
Last edited by A=443; 02/26/11 09:37 AM.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,203
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Yesterday repaired a lower cabinet corner, music desk, and replaced a broken pedal. Also started voicing some new Renner hammers.
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Joined: Mar 2009
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Went to tune a Baldwin upright player that I have been tuning regularly over the last ten years. Had been about a year since I last saw it. Today while tuning I notice the last third of the treble section was considerably down from the rest of the piano. Normally this piano holds its tune very well.
Then when I started down the bass I found a section that was tubby and buzzing.
Opened up the piano to find the last two octaves of the treble bridge had two splits, along with the pins pulling through the bridge cap.
On the bass found even more problems with the bass bridge. It had major fractures and part of the sound board trying to push through to the back.
Had to give the owner some very bad news about her piano. Took a few pictures so she could see better what was happening.
I've seen a lot of pianos in my area recently that the bridges were failing.
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Joined: Aug 2002
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Tuned a Kawai RX-3 for a choir concert at a high school then drove 100 miles to a north Milwaukee suburb to tune a superbly restored Steinway model A. Both at A-440, by the way. Now, wouldn't a piano tuned for a choir have to be in ET? Not according to that choir director who has used me exclusively for about 10 years. There is another one at a high school 45 miles away that has tried all the others and has used me exclusively since 2006.
Wouldn't there be a technician in the Milwaukee area good enough to take care of a fine Steinway grand? Of course but that customer is willing to pay double fee for me and only me to go there. There must be something worth slightly more than a darn about what I know how to do. These people can "tell" and they do tell other people and it is what keeps me going.
Ryan,
30 years later, I would not remember the title of the film or the company that made it but it was about damper regulation and showed how to make compound bends. and regulate spoons.
The spoon regulation idea is simple. Find one key where the spoon is already properly adjusted or do whatever you have to to get perhaps an end key right, such as tilting the action back, using a damper wire bender to adjust the spoon or use any other technique you may know. Mark or take note of which wippen that is. Remove the action and place it in a cradle or set it on a table or bench. Find a wedge of wood about the same size as a mute. Lift the damper rod and place the wedge under it until the marked wippen moves both the hammer and damper at the same time. Now, you can adjust all the rest of the spoons easily by bending the spoons fore or aft with a damper wire bending tool in about 5 minutes. Simply adjust the spoons so that all of the wippens make the hammer and damper move simultaneously.
For me, this was the tip of the Century because I could never figure out how to make one of those cock-eyed spoon bender tools work, not even for a single spoon! My hats off to anyone who can!
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,028
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I took a picture of my work by a video camera recently. I often notice. Could you give me any advice ? my work My advice would be to learn to tune the contiguous thirds. I would also not advise using 2:1 octaves. If anyone ever doubted what I have always said about 4ths & 5ths tuners usually ending up with Reverse Well rather than ET, then you should watch this video. It shows exactly why and how it happens and that there is no way out of it.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 961
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Tuned a Kawai RX-3 for a choir concert at a high school then drove 100 miles to a north Milwaukee suburb to tune a superbly restored Steinway model A. Both at A-440, by the way. Now, wouldn't a piano tuned for a choir have to be in ET? Not according to that choir director who has used me exclusively for about 10 years. There is another one at a high school 45 miles away that has tried all the others and has used me exclusively since 2006.
Wouldn't there be a technician in the Milwaukee area good enough to take care of a fine Steinway grand? Of course but that customer is willing to pay double fee for me and only me to go there. There must be something worth slightly more than a darn about what I know how to do. These people can "tell" and they do tell other people and it is what keeps me going.
Ryan,
30 years later, I would not remember the title of the film or the company that made it but it was about damper regulation and showed how to make compound bends. and regulate spoons.
The spoon regulation idea is simple. Find one key where the spoon is already properly adjusted or do whatever you have to to get perhaps an end key right, such as tilting the action back, using a damper wire bender to adjust the spoon or use any other technique you may know. Mark or take note of which wippen that is. Remove the action and place it in a cradle or set it on a table or bench. Find a wedge of wood about the same size as a mute. Lift the damper rod and place the wedge under it until the marked wippen moves both the hammer and damper at the same time. Now, you can adjust all the rest of the spoons easily by bending the spoons fore or aft with a damper wire bending tool in about 5 minutes. Simply adjust the spoons so that all of the wippens make the hammer and damper move simultaneously.
For me, this was the tip of the Century because I could never figure out how to make one of those cock-eyed spoon bender tools work, not even for a single spoon! My hats off to anyone who can! I seem to remember that idea or perhaps the film or article too...and it would make it MUCH easier to deal with those actions that still have the plastic damper flanges....those plastic flanges are pretty easy to pop using the crash around-move tool angrily method that at least one of us sometimes employes LOL... RPD
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America) Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association) (Subscriber PTG Journal) Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com DEALER Hailun Pianos
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Joined: Jun 2001
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I had a damper spoon bent sideways on a Baldwin spinet once. The spoon was sideways enough that it just hung up the neighboring damper lever, causing a leaky damper. I couldn't find anything in my tool kit that would bend the spoon sideways back into position, and ended up pulling the action to make a 1 second bend! grrrrr.
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Joined: Nov 2008
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I took a picture of my work by a video camera recently. I often notice. Could you give me any advice ? my work Yes I do have some advice. Here is what I posted in another Topic before I read this one: .....
Has anyone noticed yet that in the video I showed that the result of the temperament is actually Reverse Well rather than ET? I did not go that far through the video; he was still tuning. But if the result was not ET, regardless of the type of error, then he should try Dr. White's method! I noticed that with the sequence he chose, the first RBI was a m3 instead of a M6. He did not listen to it anyway. In fact there where many RBIs that became available that he did not listen to, primarily the M6s and the m3s. Then it seemed he was trying to polish the temperament with the SBIs before confirming it with the RBIs. That is asking for trouble. With two SBIs sharing a common note, the 4th should beat a hair faster than the 5th, and none should stick out from thier neighbors. But care must be taken to deterimine where the error is by listening to the RBIs. The two SBIs can even be in the correct relationship to each other, but all three notes be incorrect in relationship to other notes.
Jeff Deutschle Part-Time Tuner Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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.....
If anyone ever doubted what I have always said about 4ths & 5ths tuners usually ending up with Reverse Well rather than ET, then you should watch this video. It shows exactly why and how it happens and that there is no way out of it. Make up your mind, Bill. Is it something that only "usually" happens, or is there "no way out of it?"
Jeff Deutschle Part-Time Tuner Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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Joined: Aug 2008
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Went to a military band concert last night. As the oboe played the tuning note I wondered if they tuned to A or Bb. Then she played another tuning note one semi-tone higher. Ah, how democratic. They tune to both! Haha!
Patrick Wingren, RPT Wingren Pianistik https://facebook.com/wingrenpianistikConcert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland Musician, arranger, composer - - - - Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
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I took a picture of my work by a video camera recently. I often notice. Could you give me any advice ? my work Whatever method you use, the rapid beating intervals (RBI's) should always beat faster when you move up on the piano. That is, in ET, no major 3rd below another major 3rd should ever beat faster. Neither should a major 3rd above another major 3rd ever beat slower. No matter if you use 4ths or 5ths or the method that Bill proposes (and that I myself indeed think is much easier), contiguous 3rds (for example F3-A3-C#4-F4-A4), the end result should be progressive RBI's if you tune your piano in ET. At about 5'50'' in your video, you have A#3-D4 beating way faster than A3-C#4. At about 6'30'', F3-A3 is beating faster than F#3-A#3. And so on. There are a lot of good tuners using 5ths and 4ths, but I completely agree with Bill here. You'd need anchor points to go back to, in order to figure out where you went wrong. This is where contiguous 3rds would help. Any seasoned tuner could probably start with contiguous 3rds OR 5ths and 4ths, and end up with a nice ET. This because of an arsenal of cross-checking, combined with a refined ear that only time will develop. I believe you would really benefit from interlocking the 4ths and 5ths in the way you can do with a contiguous 3rds sequence. And, if that C5 is readily at your disposal, you have a great instrument to practice on - the beats are clearly heard, and those pianos are very forgiving in regards of hammer technique - they pretty much stay where you leave them And lastly - just as Bill said - that check for a 2:1 octave won't tell you that much on a grand of that length. The "mainstream tuner choice" would be the check for a 4:2 octave, which you can get by just using a reference note an octave higher than you do now (instead of checking F2-A4 against F2-A3 for 2:1, you could check F3-A4 against F3-A3 for 4:2, and so on.)
Patrick Wingren, RPT Wingren Pianistik https://facebook.com/wingrenpianistikConcert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland Musician, arranger, composer - - - - Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
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Four tunings, four pitch raises. I love tuning a piano that's horrendously out of tune because it sound soooo much better when you're done.
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One of today's tunings was in a funeral home. At least it was quiet! VERY quiet.
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2 new bass strings on an old Kohler & Campbell. My method for coiling replacement string on an upright must be crazy. I remove the action, put the string in and cut the length, remove it, and here's the crazy part: I put a small dowel through the loop and step on the dowel with both feet, create a becket with pliers, insert the becket into a hole drilled into another dowel, and twist 3 full turns. Put it back in and tune it up. The coil always comes out fabulous. Is this weird?
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