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#2047368 - 03/12/13 11:54 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Mark Davis]
RoyP Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 783
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
I have been able to download the article on a couple computers. So I think it's accessible to anyone from the above link.

I wonder whether there is a correlation between the use of a capo bar and higher string tensions? Most of the pianos of which I am aware that use agraffes all of the way to the top tend to be European, such as the Bechstein. My understanding is that the new C.Bechstein line has a capo bar, and is designed to have more power, etc. Is this scale higher tension?

Sorry Ed. You posted while I was writing.


Edited by RoyP (03/12/13 11:58 PM)
Edit Reason: addition
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Roy Peters, RPT
Cincinnati, Ohio
Live Performance LX Installation
www.cincypiano.com

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#2047369 - 03/12/13 11:56 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: RoyP]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1470
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Roy,
The new Bechstein scale may have a capo but it most certainly does not have a "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale"!
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In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2047371 - 03/12/13 11:59 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
RoyP Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 783
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
I suppose it doesn't!

I would like to hear one of your pianos. I was in Seattle last summer, but somehow missed it.
_________________________
Roy Peters, RPT
Cincinnati, Ohio
Live Performance LX Installation
www.cincypiano.com

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#2047464 - 03/13/13 04:34 AM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2313
Loc: Lowell MA
Thanks Ed for your explanation.

I did read your article.

Yes, Helmholtz doesn't list longitudinal comments in either the contents or index.

Ellis cites the enormous difficulty in terminating longitudinal mode. Could you comment on how you are able to terminate this mode?

As far as the difficulties with the B scale at B4 and C5, I have been able to resolve the issues you describe. Terminations, Belly design, hammer choice, regulation and voicing have been sufficient. I don't attribute all of the instances you describe to the design as you describe it. I like the B scale as designed.

We have been working with a Dr.of Physics, His T/A and the local University for the last couple of years on Longitudinal modes in piano strings. His T/a will be by this Thursday for some "quality" time with a couple of pianos. Resonant vs non resonant front and back scale questions are actually on the table.

I am not questioning that you have achieved a successful sound and I would like to hear what you have done. I do want to HEAR what you say has been "eliminated" as well as "added". Any chance you will be at MARC this year?
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#2047506 - 03/13/13 08:01 AM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1695
Loc: Massachusetts
Ed,

I read your article, which contains many interesting ideas. It seems to me that an implicit assumption you make is that a front tuned duplex is necessary, or at desirable. There are some pianos that are designed not to require a tuned front duplex because the shape of the bearing point of the strings as they go under the capo bar, and the angle of the strings as they come off the capo are such that no (or de minimis) energy leaks across the front termination. In such a design, there is no possibility of loss of string energy due to a somewhat lossy termination (i.e., the transmission of string energy across the capo bar is not perfect), there are no longitudinal modes in the duplex section because there are no string vibrations in the duplex section, and therefore the various noises, whistles, and chimes that you describe can't exist.

The advantages claimed for pianos designed not to have string energy bleed across the capo are an increased sustained, and an improved tone. It seems from your description that a piano using the front termination taught by your patent may well sound very similar. I am interested in your comments.

Thanks

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#2047536 - 03/13/13 09:06 AM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
James Carney Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 401
Loc: new york city
Ed, is there a piano with your FTDS in New York City? Or will you have one at MARC or the Chicago convention?
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#2047541 - 03/13/13 09:12 AM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6369
Loc: France
It sound difficult to admit that Lmodes can pass thru the capos easily, however the front segment could be exited by, as energy seem to be able to attain even the tuning pin.
Any string segment may work as a resonator, but for Lmode I like to see what is the level of motion that correspond to the frequencies.

or do I miss something in the Lmode transmission schemes ? it seem clear (!) when I thing of the bridge and the wire itself, but the agrafe or capo part seem neutral enough to me.

the excitation that is perceived at the pin side, is it coming from the wire, or from wave reflected waves in the case and plate ?
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#2047583 - 03/13/13 10:51 AM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1470
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Roy123,
I most definitely have proven that a FTDS duplex design in the treble makes the tone better than any other prior art. I have the single most important proof; the pianos! Now we are left to argue why. I have tried my best to use what is known about L-mode and T-modes and their interactions to explain why. The FTDS is the result of the test of my hypotheses.

The counter bearing angle of the duplex string segment has no relation to L-mode reflection. Since L-mode is carried internally in the string, some of it from the localized tension differences the hammer strike produces it with, go right over the V-bar. It then can be reflected by the duplex rest. This is how each unison generates 6 different fundamental L-modes.

BB Mason/Hamlins have steep duplex counter bearing and they always have several notes that chime.

Monotone duplex designs can have the duplex damped or undamped with felt. The damped ones usually have no duplex noises but the tone sustains less and is more nasal. Monotone duplexes do not optimize pivot termination conditions across the compass. The Acetal co-polymer duplex rests I use, (and any other suitable material that damps L-mode and doesn't damp T-mode are claimed) damp L-mode and do not damp T-mode. This is different than the prior art. Felt damps T-mode.
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#2047589 - 03/13/13 11:04 AM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Larry Buck]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1470
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Larry,
The L-mode termination issue Ellis struggled with is related to bridge rocking and resonances within the monochord structure.

Most pianists and technicians have come to expect and ignore many of the subtle duplex chiming noises the duplexes of the prior art all contain. I think if you listen carefully to your pianos you will find some-especially if you voice the treble up fully to equal the rest of the compass in volume for playing effort expended. Most pianos have weak trebles-especially if they have wonderful basses to contrast it with. All prior art duplexes have a tonal break where the agraffes end and capo begins.

I very much like the tone of the B scale. One of my FTDS pianos is a 1984 B. It has the best treble tone of any piano I have ever heard in my life. It did not sound that way before I modifies it to FTDS.

I have not been invited to either MARC or 2013 PTG Institute. I would be open to bringing a piano and presenting a lecture if the conditions were workable.
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In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2047600 - 03/13/13 11:27 AM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Roy123,
I most definitely have proven that a FTDS duplex design in the treble makes the tone better than any other prior art...


I am immediately suspicious of proofs of any sort of esthetics, since not everyone has the same esthetic values. The use of the word "proof" in your article is inaccurate.

Recordings might be more convincing than claims of proof.
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Semipro Tech

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#2047619 - 03/13/13 12:09 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: BDB]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1470
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
BDB,
I hope you enjoy your suspicions. If you read my article I hope you noticed the prefatory paragraph Ed Sutton appended. He is a well known sceptic of "new" piano inventions.

I do not think tone quality, in a fundamental way, is taste. There is good taste and bad taste.

My theoretical foundation for tone is a concept I developed called "Musically Intelligible Sound", (MIS). It is rooted in combining linguistics, operatic vocal technique, the standard two terms form of defining the tone of an individual piano note, (I have my own preferred words for each part, )and my original contribution being; placing three categories of sound across the compass of the keyboard. MIS was to be the centerpiece of my second book titled; "Grand DeLight", subtitled; "The Natural Tongue of Piano Tone and Touch". I have 13 chapters roughed in but have not gone further due to other interests.

BDB my "proof" is the only one that matters to musicians!


Edited by Ed McMorrow, RPT (03/13/13 12:19 PM)
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#2047634 - 03/13/13 12:24 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
As I said, recordings would be welcome. Ideally, it should be "before" and "after" recordings with everything else the same on the piano. That is, if the piano is restrung during the process, the piano needs to be restrung in the "before" recording.

Testimonials are rarely proof. I am reminded of the story of the pile of crutches left at a shrine, and the note left there by someone who understands this: "One wooden leg would be sufficient!"
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Semipro Tech

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#2047649 - 03/13/13 12:41 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 583
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
PTG Journal online as PDF is available to all.


Hello Ed,

This is great news but I wonder if you are not mistaken?

When did this take place?

I was under the impression that only members of the PTG and paying subscribers were allowed to view the journal.

Why would some have to pay for it and others not?



Ok, I queried with the PTG and Ed Sutton, responded with, "it is being changed to members only?".

So, we leave it there and to the PTG








Edited by Mark Davis (03/13/13 04:19 PM)
Edit Reason: Hopefully to the best of all
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Mark Davis
PianoForte Technologies
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2047664 - 03/13/13 01:13 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Mark Davis]
Zeno Wood Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 427
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
What are you talking about? Are you looking for some sort of conspiracy? If the Journal was available on line to non-members of the PTG, then it was an oversight related to running a klunky website that has now been corrected.
_________________________
Zeno Wood, Piano Technician
Brooklyn College

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#2047686 - 03/13/13 01:59 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 583
I am leaving all of this stuff alone as this is not my fight, but the PTG's.
_________________________
Mark Davis
PianoForte Technologies
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2047707 - 03/13/13 02:50 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
adamp88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/24/09
Posts: 92
Loc: Omaha, NE
I'm a bit confused. If it was incorrect for Jim to post that link, then that's on Jim. You seem to be implying something broader?
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Adam Schulte-Bukowinski
Piano Technician
CSPT graduate
Associate Member, PTG

ASB Piano Service
Omaha, NE

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#2047719 - 03/13/13 03:20 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 583
I will leave all of this stuff to the professionals.



Edited by Mark Davis (03/13/13 04:09 PM)
Edit Reason: not my problem
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Mark Davis
PianoForte Technologies
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2047886 - 03/13/13 09:41 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Zeno Wood]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1470
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I agree with Zeno-our PTG website is clunky!

My apologies to all who cannot access the article. If you send me your mailing addresses I will send a photo copy of the article to all who are interested-except BDB- it sounds like I might have to send him a whole piano!
Thanks Ed
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In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2048051 - 03/14/13 05:56 AM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6369
Loc: France
Hello Ed,

yes I wish to read the doc, I have on the site but now it is not possible.

I suggest that you pass recordings of notes before and after.

Even with basic microphone that kind of analysis is not so difficult to provide in my opinion.

I dont understand why we dont seem more spectra analysis from the people providing piano wire, pitch locks, and other goodies that are supposed to clean or optimise a part of the tone.

SImply dont get why, even basic recording misses.

WHat is provided is recordings of pianos with 6-8mlikes and a lot of sound treatment, sometime, or tuners playing with the sustain pedal engaged.

However, I am all for reasearchs and discovering new things.

YEst the font duplexes are not providing a clean tone by themselves, I suppose they playu a role more in the dynamics (adbsorbing part of the impact hardness) than to enlight the spectra

SO you say that the L waves are passing thru the inner pârt of the wire ? this need to be examinated, as I understand the wire is deformed under the hammer impact, but this deformation is supposed to be stopped by the agrafe or the capo.

(while certainly there is something that passes from the wire to the tuning pin, at last with a hard blow the original wave is what allows to test pin setting or to create it, depending of the tuning method used. (it also allows to add a little tension in the front segment after having lowered it when tuning)

How can you detect the presence of Lmodes in the front segments ? with accelerometers , or with the method tou developped (where the presence is ascertain by its loss, if I understand well) ?

Please let us hear what it is about, whenever possible.

You, as a reasearcher, certainly have recorded samples as it is the case in all acoustical researches. Could you provide them please ?

All the best

Isaac OLEG
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Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2048083 - 03/14/13 08:24 AM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 529
Loc: shirley, MA
Isaac,

What equipment do you use to make the on-site demonstration recordings you've posted on the forum? I have found several of them demonstrate the point you were trying to make very well, while obviously not being a professional recording.

I'm thinking of 2 recordings in particular from, I think, the Unison thread:

1-tuning treble unisons with the sustain pedal engaged
2-also in the Unison thread, it was a pianist "testing" a CHAS tuning

In both of these the sound was not professional, but still the point and the sound made it through quite well, despite the manner of recording.

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2048086 - 03/14/13 08:29 AM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1695
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT

I most definitely have proven that a FTDS duplex design in the treble makes the tone better than any other prior art.


That proof would be quite an undertaking. To prove, for example, that the FTDS duplex design was better than a piano designed not to bleed energy across the capo, you'd have to take two identical pianos, prepare and voice them the same way, and verify by means of some measurements that their treble sections gave identical tones (to some agreed upon extent). Then, you'd have to modify one using the FTDS techniques and the other not to bleed energy across the capo. You would have to verify, by some objective tests, that the modifications to both pianos were competently designed and executed, i.e., they produced some objective standard of performance. Then, both pianos would have to be prepped and voiced to bring out their best tone--not just any best tone, but a best tone that was, in some aesthetic way, comparable (boy, would that be a task fraught with problems). Then, by means of listening and some additional objective tests, decide which one sounded better, or, in fact, if they just sounded somewhat different, but in a way that could not be classified as better or worse. The listening tests would have to be double blind to be of any worth.

Until such tests were done, I would have to say that your assertion about the superiority of FTDS design was somewhat anecdotal.
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT

The counter bearing angle of the duplex string segment has no relation to L-mode reflection.

Yes, I believe this is true.

Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Since L-mode is carried internally in the string, some of it from the localized tension differences the hammer strike produces it with, go right over the V-bar.


Well, the L mode is much like sound in air. Just as sound in air causes compression and rarefaction, and also produces movement in air molecules, the L mode produces longitudinal movement of the string--if it didn't how would the L-mode energy be coupled to parts of the piano that could vibrate and produce sound? The extent to which the L mode can go through the capo termination would depend on the details of the termination. You apparently have determined that using a particular plastic dampens L modes. Perhaps that plastic could be used at the string-bearing point of the capo and damp L modes there. If so, a piano could use this feature and also use a high enough string angle over the capo not to bleed T mode energy across the capo, and therefore may have the superior sustain of such a design.

Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT

BB Mason/Hamlins have steep duplex counter bearing and they always have several notes that chime.


If M&H BBs have tuned front duplexes one must assume that the design of the capo does not stop T-mode string energy from crossing the capo.

Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Monotone duplex designs can have the duplex damped or undamped with felt. The damped ones usually have no duplex noises but the tone sustains less and is more nasal.


I believe that this statement is not true in general, though it might be true of some poorly designed monotone duplexes. Also, consider that any T-mode energy that bleeds across the capo is T-mode energy that is no longer in the string. It would be difficult to believe that T-mode energy in the string can make it past the capo into the tuned duplex section, and then make it through the capo again into the main portion of the string without substantial energy loss. Therefore, one would think that a piano designed not to bleed T-mode energy across the capo would have superior sustain, other things being equal. If I may indulge in an anecdotal statement, I have played a piano designed not be bleed energy across the capo, and this piano had neither a nasal tone, nor short sustain.

Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Monotone duplexes do not optimize pivot termination conditions across the compass.


If, by a pivot termination you mean one in which the string effectively pivots at the capo due to T-mode vibrations, then you are indeed correct--a piano designed with a monotone duplex is, or at least, should be, designed to have a true, full termination at the capo, in which nothing crosses the capo. If fully successful, no L- or T-mode energy would cross such a capo.

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#2048172 - 03/14/13 12:08 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1470
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
ROY123,
The people who can evaluate whether my FTDS works are ones who have heard many pianos, and particularly the scales with prior art duplexes, and have heard the same scales with FTDS. They recognize the improvement. As some level the double blind sort of A to B test you are requiring looks good on paper, and if I were seeking tenure at University would be needed, but to provide practical service to musicians-"I don't need no stinking badges" (To quote the banditos from the movie Treasure of The Sierra Madre).

At some level all that matters is that an FTDS makes a piano function better as a musical instrument and provides a more stable regime for those elements. My thinking may seem different than many of the tropes that have become standard about pianos, but I think it is simpler, and based on known physics. What I have uncovered is that inaudible L-modes can produce audible beats.

My claims involve capo bar elements that stiffen and damp L-mode. I have not made an instrument with all of the elements in place in one piano.

The importance of pivot to the very short treble strings cannot be overstated. The T-mode must be able to flex the portion of string between the V-bar and the duplex rest. Even when you get down to the agraffe section, placing the agraffe side of the string rest felts 10mm or so behind them and using the densest felt produces an audible difference. As does chamfering the agraffe string holes so as to allow the fullest pivot string motion. I have verified all of this with A to B comparisons.

My apologies to all who expect me to set up a recording studio and then post the clips here. I would rather spend the time making another instrument.

I do have a long professional track record of successful innovation which Mr. Sutton aknowledged in his prefatory paragraph. I know that is saying "Trust me" but that is where I am at.

I have heard several pianos which have been changed from a duplex to a monotone and they all had weaker, thinner treble tone.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2048179 - 03/14/13 12:29 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1253
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
ROY123,
As some level the double blind sort of A to B test you are requiring looks good on paper, and if I were seeking tenure at University would be needed, but to provide practical service to musicians-"I don't need no stinking badges" (To quote the banditos from the movie Treasure of The Sierra Madre).


I would agree. Double-blind tests to disprove the null hypothesis are entirely appropriate for drugs and medical procedures where people's lives are at stake. However, this is not by any means the only way to "know" something. In fact, only a microscopic percentage of all we know comes to us that way. To suggest we won't reliably know something about Ed's development until we exhaust what might well be the entire piano industry's R&D budget for a few years just isn't real.

Certainly it's not appropriate to dismiss or muzzle small innovators when their presentation is well-reasoned and reflects some sort of practical interaction with the real world through direct observation of phenomena. This is NOT to say that there shouldn't be questions and critiques as time goes along. Those are entirely appropriate. But to dismiss something or someone just because they don't have a corporate research budget won't be helpful to consideration of innovation in our morbidly conservative industry.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#2048186 - 03/14/13 12:42 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 529
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow
Even when you get down to the agraffe section, placing the agraffe side of the string rest felts 10mm or so behind them and using the densest felt produces an audible difference.


Could you clarify the language here. S&S has a "ski slope" of felt in the tenor agraffe section which behaves as a mushy, high friction, kind'a counter-bearing (a bit of a pain to the tuner sometimes). Are you saying placing dense felt on the non-speaking side of the agraffe, in addition to the ski slope?

Also if this is what you are describing, how does it assist the pivot, being so close to the agraffe. Or, are you differentiating between pivot and L mode damping in the treble sections and L mode damping only in the tenor agraffe sections.

A pic would be helpful if you could manage it.


Jim Ialeggio



Edited by jim ialeggio (03/14/13 06:55 PM)
_________________________
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www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2048372 - 03/14/13 07:01 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT

My apologies to all who expect me to set up a recording studio and then post the clips here. I would rather spend the time making another instrument.

I do have a long professional track record of successful innovation which Mr. Sutton aknowledged in his prefatory paragraph. I know that is saying "Trust me" but that is where I am at.

I have heard several pianos which have been changed from a duplex to a monotone and they all had weaker, thinner treble tone.


I've been following this thread with great interest, as this sounds like a big innovation. I'm on board with the physics and the rationale, but I don't have rebuilding or designing experience, I can only relate to what I have encountered wtih existing duplex scaling. Hence, I'm probably a bit more easily convinced than others on this forum! grin

I just wanted to jump in here because I believe it is not unreasonable for people to want to hear samples of this technology. Nobody is asking you to set up a recording studio - in fact Isaac is bemoaning the lack of really simple recordings that just get the message across - if your technology makes the kind of difference to the sound that you seem to be claiming, then there's no requirement for a professional recording to bring it out - simply any recording using an external microphone, of an untreated piano and a piano with the FTDS. Even a very simple recording of an ascending major scale in the treble of your FTDS-equipped B would be illuminating, I'm sure - do it with your phone, even.

I'm not asking for scientific comparison. I'm just curious what it sounds like, as I'm sure a great number of other people here are!


Edited by Phil D (03/14/13 07:05 PM)
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Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

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#2048389 - 03/14/13 07:50 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Nice post, Phil, thanks.

Hi Ed,

Plus one.
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alfredo

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#2048397 - 03/14/13 08:06 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1118
Loc: Québec, Canada
Yes, nice post Mr. Dickson.
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Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

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#2048415 - 03/14/13 09:15 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: accordeur]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3340
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: accordeur
Yes, nice post Mr. Dickson.


Agreed, this whole thread is too secretive. It's all words and no action. I gather Ed is trying to somewhat protect this idea, but it's coming across as a bit cagey. No pictures, no sound, just concepts. How exactly are people supposed to evaluate this technology?

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#2048429 - 03/14/13 09:47 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
I can understand that until the patent is granted the details should not be gone into. I have also been willing to give the benefit of the doubt for inaccurate use of scientific claims. But I would like to hear a demonstration. There have been too many claims of miracle discoveries around here that, when we actually get to hear them, are not that impressive. I, for one, am not about to recommend that anyone buy a self-tuning piano, or a granite bridge, after hearing the samples.
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#2048490 - 03/15/13 01:18 AM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1470
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Thanks Keith for a well said post!

Olek and A.C.; PM your addresses and I will send article to you.

Jim; Reduce the width of the paperboard string rest by about 7mm at note 51 and taper that off about 15 notes below. Bond the densest woven felt appropriate to the paperboard and place it about 10mm behind agraffe 51. Make overall thickness enough to make a solid, definite point of contact at the agraffe edge of the ski-slope string rest.

Phi D; Call me at 01-425-299-3431 on march 19th between 9:00AM and 6PM US west coast time and I will play the treble over the phone for you. That is the first day I will have the shop to myself again since a bunch of music teachers are using my showroom for classes for the next few days.

ANDO; I think you must realize that musical instruments must be directly experienced to have a truly meaningful experience. One of these days I will get my web-site up and it will have recordings of each piano I have available. As of now other activities take precedence.

BDB; Again I can't send you an FTDS piano-but I have and do demonstrate them to all who desire to come by my shop. Or when I am invited to present at a PTG or close facsimile thereof group-I will bring a piano if it is at all possible. I am with you on the self-tuning granite piano, (did I just say that or is someone stoned out of their mind?). FTDS is the real deal my friends and I am very proud of it. I also will say that there are many many wonderful pianos without it-but it does make it easier to make a beautiful treble. Warm with power. Plus it blends across the compass seamlessly.
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In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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