AND YET... a single grain on one big beach.

Thanks for helping me prove my point.

In honor of you, I may go back, relearn the piece, and record it with your alternate fingering. I will, of course, give you all the credit. And I mean ALL the credit. :p

At first I thought the reasoning behind the LH "take" was because the player's physiognomy made reaching the RH thumb down there difficult. But then the subsequent measures would again require a "fix."

I might forgive such a thing for one occurrence in a big work, but not where it's an integral, repeated part of the structure.

Not to make a big thing of it, but glad to be of service.

Is that an undisputed quote??

It surprises me if it is, because I've tended to doubt that he much conceived of the etudes as helping develop technique (as most people assume he did). I've viewed them more as compositional studies -- showing how you can create great music with etude figures -- and pieces to display the technique that you have more than to develop it.

I don't have time to look for the exact quote, but he did mention in one of his letters about "writing etudes in his manner" and of course he also started to write his method. And it seems he was kind of devoted as a teacher, so I would assume he has this aspect in mind when preparing these.

The above quote about 10-1 is in Eisedinger's book, page 68. He got it from Niecks. It was supposedly told to Friederike Streicher by Chopin. So it is hearsay, as is most of what we know about his teaching.

It is a fairly well-known quote that is attributed to one of Chopin's students. Of course, ANYONE could dispute it, Mark (as I've no doubt you will).

I was joking this time.

I think this is a good point, but Chopin etudes are musically lacking compared to say Liszt or Rachmaninoff etudes, which are excellent short performance pieces if you cut the "etude" off the title, whereas Chopin etudes are less serious music.

I've personally spent over 1 full year on op.10 no.4, and I'm hitting the 2 month mark for op.25 no.6 (at this point in my piano playing career 2 months is a lot on something this short), and I think that's part of the genius of the Chopin etudes; They might not be that musically compelling, but they sure as heck are fun to work on, even if they can be impossibly hard!

As for "cheating", I've seen people move notes over to the left hand in op.10 no.4, which I think completely defeats the purpose. The right hand has no challenge when you do that.

But for example in op.25 no.6, before the last page, that descending A major scale in thirds, I use the left hand to play the D-F#s because it doesn't make things that much easier, but it makes it sound smoother, and if you want to accuse me of making it easier, well I still have to play the harmonic G# minor descending scale with 1 hand, and that one is far far tougher.

Or Rachmaninoff! They're absolutely magnificent.. I mean, take op. 39/2 for example - can you find another etude with a similar emotional content? I love it!!!

Kimura Parker does this ALL the time - would you call him a bad pianist? I'd say he's pretty good....

Sometimes, it's better to sacrifice ONE note than to risk sounding like an idiot and messing up the character because of one silly note that no one would hear anyway. Especially if it's redistributed - I tend to avoid it, but sometimes it's inevitable especially if you cannot reach said note. Sometimes I use that tool to actually achieve a higher musical essence of the specific passage which would otherwise be impossible. In instances like that, it's perfectly okay, especially in thick-layered music (I'm thinking Rachmaninoff or Prokofiev 2nd concerto, stuff like that).

I don't think that prior to videotape there can be such a thing as an undisputed quote, but my source is here:

"Chopin, Pianist and Teacher, as seen by his pupils." by Jean-Jacques Eigeldinger,
Cambridge Press, 1986. Page 68, in turn quoting Streicher/Niecks, II p. 341.

I presume that any quote by a student of Chopin, Liszt, etc., will be an approximation since they would be writing from memory, even if notated the same day in a private journal.

If so, I'd guess he an the exception.

I'm going to disagree here, in more polite terms than I'm inclined to. If you're going to talk about what Chopin's etudes are lacking vs. Liszt or Rachmaninoff, it's certainly not musical quality. They're magnificent in terms of making exercises in technical fundamentals live, breathe and sing. Countless composers have been trying to write better exercises in thirds or sixths for almost 200 years, and only Debussy was able to match him, IMO.

If they are missing anything, it's a large amount of contrast. The end of Chopin's B minor etude in octaves is essentially the same as the beginning, and the center section, though fantastic, is technically repetitive. Liszt's Wilde Jagd has a lot more development and differentiation between sections.

Well, that's what I'm getting at. They are very simplistic and repetitive, and while that material would make a good few passages in a larger work, there is not much variety. Of course they are very short so there isn't time for much development, but the structure of a piece is important, not just the parts that constitute it.

Chopin etudes are like a more lyrical Czerny etude, whereas Liszt etudes have more structure and development to them. The technical focus is woven into a larger framework, and the technical focus itself is broader, and so I think it's more appropriate for general programming.

Mr. Bill! That takes me back.

Thanks -- you kept me from having to do the impoliteness.
Especially about the Chopin.

I couldn't disagree with this more. I think that Chopin's etudes are among his very greatest compositions, on par with the ballades, nocturnes and preludes, among others. The B minor "octaves etude" happens to be one of my least favorites, so I won't argue there. But all the rest are, for me, examples of the most subtle, rarified art. I like Liszt's, but the Chopin etudes are in a different league for me. I'm surprised at how many here view their purpose as pedagogical.

-J

The musical quality makes them better pedagogical works, not worse.

I like the Chopin etudes, but they strike me as pop tunes with a technical problem thrown on top. Hard to learn, easy to memorize.

Totally false!!!
(Although, the melody of the F major 10/8 does seem to stolen from an old Beef-A-Roni commercial.)

I NEVER cheat in any of Chopin's etudes.

More specifically, I don't play Chopin's etudes.

Regarding musical value of Chopin's etudes vs. his nocturnes or ballades or sonatas; They are all different kinds of compositions, and I think the etudes have wonderful musical value. It's hard for me to compare his etudes to his nocturnes or sonatas for example, but if you asked me what I'd rather listen to, I'll always answer with nocturnes, sonatas, ballades, etc.

Regarding musical value of etudes in general, Liszt's and Rachmaninoff's etudes are longer and more expansive, whereas Chopin's are almost always a short A-B-A form and more or less chord progressions over a technical difficulty. Also, L's/R's etudes aren't just chord progressions over technical difficulties. I am in NO means saying anything negative about or discrediting Chopin's etudes by saying that; it's just that L/R did different things than Chopin. Chopin's seem a bit more standardized to me.

THEN you have my favorite under-appreciated composer, who combines the technical concentration of Chopin and musical/formal expansion of Liszt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly8SVwZGoHk

I had a feeling it was going to be him.

BTW I agree.

You don't even play Chopin's Op.10/12 or Op.25/1?? (BTW, no need to cheat in either; actually, it's easier to play them without cheating )

As for Alkan, some of his music sound a trifle relentless to me..... ....though I still love it, especially when played by Hamelin or Gibbons. But not sure I'd want to play it myself (OK, I've never tried....).

Actually it isn't -- I play 10/12 by crossing the hands and playing the LH part with the RH.

Here's another cheat I do!



Again 10/1. Top is what's written, bottom is what I play. Here, unlike the example that started this thread, I actually omit a note.

Please don't report me to Piano Protective Services! I don't want the authorities to show up at my door and take my Bösendorfer away!

I cheat by performing the Godowsky etudes which are easier than the originals...

PLEASE tell me that you have an easier time with Godowsky's left hand arrangement of 10/2 than Chopin's 10/2.

Well, I just did op.10 no.6 :P