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#2025260 - 02/01/13 11:54 AM Why do private sellers price so high?
concertina Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 43
Loc: Canada
So here's a question for all you seasoned piano buyers out there - do you find that private sellers, in general, ask way too much for their beloved pianos? I haven't looked at very many yet, but the one I had inspected by a technician was labelled "overpriced", another was priced a little lower but in worse condition, and one I am going to look at is six or seven years old and priced only slightly less than I guess a new one would be.

I feel weird about offering someone only about 60% of their asking price, but is this acceptable? I'm one of those people who doesn't like to offend anyone, but nobody likes to overpay.

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#2025282 - 02/01/13 12:12 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2919
Loc: UK.
I wouldn't feel bad about making an offer that you feel is more realistic. They can always say no.
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

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#2025285 - 02/01/13 12:15 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21673
Loc: Oakland
It is difficult to price anything used. Prices vary.

There are two types of sellers. Some are selling for the money, and they are likely to price things too high. Others are selling to get rid of something, and they are likely to price them too low.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2025288 - 02/01/13 12:18 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6375
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
And many times, folks have absolutely no idea what their piano is really worth. You should view this as an opportunity to "educate" them. (You will actually be doing them a favor !!)
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2025289 - 02/01/13 12:19 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
Mark VC Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 110
Maybe one reason is just the pain? I'm a long long way from selling my C6, but looking at the Ebay prices for used C6's, there's a definite 'ouch' between what I paid and what I'm likely to get for it when that day comes.

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#2025292 - 02/01/13 12:22 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
concertina Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 43
Loc: Canada
Mark, I think you're right. One seller assured me they bought it at a much higher price. Of course, I don't really care what they paid, only what it's worth!

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#2025293 - 02/01/13 12:26 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
Steven Y. A. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/13
Posts: 291
Loc: Toronto
what brand are you looking at?
_________________________
PLEYEL P124

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#2025309 - 02/01/13 01:03 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
Rickster Offline


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8569
Loc: Georgia, USA
That's news to me... I thought private sale prices for pianos were substantially lower than pre-owned from a dealer?

On the other hand, some private sellers think their piano is worth its weight in gold... smile

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#2025327 - 02/01/13 01:38 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
concertina Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 43
Loc: Canada
Steven, I've mostly been looking at Kawais. And it's possible, since I've just started looking recently, that mostly what I'm seeing are the overpriced pianos that have been sitting on the market for a long time.

Maybe some people include the sentimental value of the piano in their price, and maybe others expect to negotiate down significantly. I guess it's hard to tell until you make them a lower offer and see their reaction.

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#2025343 - 02/01/13 02:13 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
ChatNoir Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 1477
Loc: Encino, California
Most of the general public have no idea about what their piano is worth. Often you will see things like "appraised at 20.000 dollars", and the instrument is hardly worth a fraction of that. What we all have to learn, is that nothing is worth more than anyone is willing to pay for it. So never be embarrassed to give an offer you think is reasonable, all they can say, is yes or no.
_________________________
Some men are music lovers. Others make love without it.

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#2025366 - 02/01/13 03:02 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
Jonathan Alford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 359
Loc: Colorado
I think one of two reasons:

1 - To begin negotiations high

2 - They have no clue but were told when they purchased the piano originally the salesman told them this was an investment.

Jonathan

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#2025385 - 02/01/13 03:28 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
Nash. Piano Rescue Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 386
Loc: East Nashville,TN Scottsville...
One of the things I always seem to notice about people buying from private sellers is they use this line " Well I have to pay for a mover" ??? Yeah ? Well the person buying knew that before they went in to look at it didn't they?

Private sellers these days have it pretty rough because people buying don't want to pay to have them moved or try to do it themselves. Last year we scraped up several DIY piano moves from roads and walks.

I also agree about the online appraisals. I had a call like that yesterday where the person said a piano broker appraised an old upright at ... are you sitting down... 800 K !! yet he didn't offer to buy it??? That has got to be the most valuable upright on the planet.
_________________________
J. Christie
Nashville Piano Rescue
www.NashvillePianoRescue.com
East Nashville
Bowling Green, KY
Scottsville KY.
Chamber of Commerce
Member/Sponsor

Putting inspiration in the hands of area musicians
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#2025397 - 02/01/13 03:52 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
Mark... Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 4380
Loc: Jersey Shore
I should tell people, "pay full price as listed and I will pay to move up to $500"...

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#2025465 - 02/01/13 05:15 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2919
Loc: UK.
Old pianos are often overpriced because people think they are antiques.

More modern pianos are overpriced because brand new pianos are overpriced. If you have an old Yamaha U1 to sell the first thing you do is google the price of a new one!
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

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#2025548 - 02/01/13 07:38 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
Nash. Piano Rescue Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 386
Loc: East Nashville,TN Scottsville...
Agreed, There should be a price point set on all pianos from now on.

New pianos 10.00

Used pianos 2.00

Piano Moves 1.75

If there are stairs use rope and mule 2.00 plus extra hay charge

That should cover the basics and I bet people would still try to get a better deal.

There is a guy locally on craigslist with a beater pickup, two wood boards in the back that moves pianos for 20.00 ! I always wonder about his Insurance premiums?

We've been moving them since the 1920s and we still get folks calling asking if we can beat that guys 20 dollar price.
_________________________
J. Christie
Nashville Piano Rescue
www.NashvillePianoRescue.com
East Nashville
Bowling Green, KY
Scottsville KY.
Chamber of Commerce
Member/Sponsor

Putting inspiration in the hands of area musicians
Through restoration/renovation

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#2025605 - 02/01/13 09:22 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2727
Loc: Atlanta, GA
In most private sales, neither the seller nor the buyer are experts. Rarely does a piano teacher have any knowledge of price, and most techs have glimpses into pricing but are uncomfortable quoting numbers other than replacement value (usually different than cash value).

Most members of this forum are only reporting outlier prices for used pianos, either high or low. The comments I see in reply are often not logical. If a new RX-2 tends to sell in the low $20's, why would a 7 year old one with potentially 80%+ of its useful life remaining be valued at less than 50% of new?

A piano is not liquid, so the "value" of the piano assumes someone wants it. To get to a liquid price, the price has to get so low that someone who did not already want it would suddenly choose to purchase it. So we're back to adding the assumptions that the seller is selling to get what they can. Time and hassle affect what they will accept but not what its potential value is.

New prices are based upon cost + market conditions. Used prices tend to be based on new prices. On one side, it can safely be argued that anything less than new is potentially a fair price. On the other, is the truly liquid price. Everything in between is fair game. The only time you are right is when you and the seller agree.
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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#2028069 - 02/06/13 12:31 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: PianoWorksATL]
ClassicU3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/13
Posts: 27
Loc: Chester County, PA
They price high because they want to get as much as they can for their piano! The private piano market is an open market, there are no real set guides for pricing. That means that any given piano is worth what any given buyer is willing to pay for it. A private seller will usually price high with the expectation that the buyer will try to negotiate a lower price, or in the hope that they will get a "sucker" who will be willing to pay their high price. So, unless the seller has a critical need to sell quickly, why not price it high and get what you can.

Plus, this is typically the case with depreciating items. Nobody wants to absorb all of the loss associated with buying a depreciating item brand new. Just like cars, you loose a large chunk of your purchase price the moment you drive it off the showroom floor. A seller's natural inclination is going to be to try to pass some of that loss off on an unsuspecting buyer. That's why it pays to research the market for the specific piano you're looking for to see where average prices are falling before deciding to buy any particular piano.

For example, I recently bought a restored 50-year old Yamaha U3 for $4,780. It's in like-new condition thanks to a very well done restoration. Since buying the piano, I've had some people say that a used gray market U3 is only worth around $3,000, while my piano technician said upon inspecting and playing the piano that it's worth around $8,000. Given a new one is around $9,500, I have to assume that the truth is somewhere in between, so I probably paid close to what might be considered the true market value of the piano. At least, that's what I'm telling myself so that I can sleep at night! The point is, to me, the piano was worth what I paid for it (why else would I have bought it?). To someone else, it might be worth less, and to yet someone else, the price I paid might seem like a bargain. Nobody right or wrong, just people with different perspectives on the value of a particular instrument.
_________________________
H Weber
1963 Yamaha U3, Polished Mahogany (restored)

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#2028083 - 02/06/13 12:47 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
Rickster Offline


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8569
Loc: Georgia, USA
I know I have better things to do, but as a hobby, pastime and general relaxation, I look at the pianos for sale ads on eBay and Craigslist almost daily. I’ve come across a couple of bargains on pianos that were for sale close to my location.

One thing I’ve noticed is that some used pianos may be advertised for sale by the same owner for a very long time… months or even years. Pianos in general are not fast sellers, unless they are priced low to start with. Pianos that are priced relatively high to begin with are the ones that remain unsold for long periods of time. Quite often, the seller will relist the piano as “Price reduced” or “Price further reduced” or “price reduced again”.

I’m sure that those who are in the piano business, like Sam Bennett, know the market well and know what they can get for their pianos. The private sellers, as Sam mentioned, are not experts and asking prices can be all over the place.

Bottom line… it pays to be diligent and do your research before you settle on a piano or a price.

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#2028244 - 02/06/13 05:09 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
SoundThumb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 344
Loc: San Diego, CA
Private sellers usually know what they paid for their piano, but not the depreciated value of a used instrument. Quite often, in their eyes, that piano is still the same musical instrument they bought with maybe just a few minor scratches in the finish. Therefore, it is very hard for them to understand that it looks quite different to a buyer. The buyer sees the risk of buying a used instrument with an uncertain past and a curtailed future vs. that of a new instrument. For the buyer, taking this risk requires a significant reduction in price from what the seller originally paid. Both people have valid views of the situation. And once an agreement is reached and the piano changes hands, both walk away a little more knowledgeable than when they first met.

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#2028379 - 02/06/13 09:03 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
boyonahill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 90
Loc: Europe
As with any market transactions are mainly done only at the lowest price offered for sale, or perhaps only when a attractive offer comes up for the buyers.

So when you do a search for pianos for sale, what do you get? A list of pianos that hasn't been sold the last month or two. Guess why!
_________________________
Current: Casio SA-46 + looking for a nice electronic piano
Sold: Yamaha M5J Walnut
Playing ability: Absolute Beginner(s)

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#2028393 - 02/06/13 09:23 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
backto_study_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 453
Loc: Australia
Like all of us, we want maximum return from the investment we made - and unless you test the market, you don't know if someone wants to pay a premium for your "one owner" "tuned 6 monthly" "only played on Sundays and never in the rain" piano.

And I'd guess, a fair proportion of private sellers are in the process of spending extra $$$ on an upgrade, and would like to reduce the changeover figure as much as possible.
_________________________
Alan from Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert - she's 7'4" long and ebony) & 2 Allen Organs [long story - the first is for sale] - MDS312 and CF-15.

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#2028396 - 02/06/13 09:31 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Alan - You forgot to mention that the piano was owned by Grandmama and She studied with Horowitz.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2028489 - 02/07/13 01:49 AM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6375
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Alan - You forgot to mention that the piano was owned by Grandmama and She studied with Horowitz.

Jack Horowitz ? grin
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2028492 - 02/07/13 01:58 AM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
if the seller bought the piano new, it's highly likely that their dealer told them the piano would only appreciate in value, or implied as much by telling them it was an "investment."

a piano is an investment--but not a financial investment!

most people do not know that pianos lose value just like cars do. they think instead they are like violins and only get more valuable as they get older.

if you are shopping for a used piano, i suggest you get a copy of larry fine's "the piano book" and take it with you to look at pianos. larry has an excellent chart in the book that helps you estimate the street value of a used piano.

you can educate the seller with this chart, as you educate yourself.

on the other hand, if the seller can find a buyer as ignorant as they are, they just might get their price.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#2028574 - 02/07/13 07:31 AM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
jdw Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 1003
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
I'm a little surprised to have someone say that new pianos are overpriced. It seems to me that given the complexities of the mechanism, expense of the materials etc., they're really not, especially with the pressure on prices from Asian imports.
_________________________
1989 Baldwin R
Currently working on:
Grieg, Papillon
Mozart, K 330
Brahms, Op. 118 no. 2

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#2028586 - 02/07/13 07:52 AM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2919
Loc: UK.
What I meant was the rrp really. Most dealers are willing to give discounts, sometimes quite substantial ones which bring the sale price down. Even so a reasonable quality grand piano is still way beyond the reach of most people. I do take your point though and realise that there are many things that contribute to the cost of a new piano so the price is what it is.

On the used market though I often read ads which quote the rrp of a particular model for comparison. But that will not have been the price paid for that piano when it was new. And now it's second hand it should be even less.
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

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#2029001 - 02/07/13 09:03 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: PianoWorksATL]
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1607
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
If a new RX-2 tends to sell in the low $20's, why would a 7 year old one with potentially 80%+ of its useful life remaining be valued at less than 50% of new?


This is a very reasonable line of logic, but just like a brand new car, the moment it is driven off the showroom floor, it has lost a huge chunk of its value even though it potentially still has close to 100% of its useful life remaining. I think brand new pianos are no different. The first year depreciation is brutal for reasons I still don't understand.

An SF Boesendorfer dealer recently had a piano for $90K even though its brand new price was closer to $129K just because it spent a week or two at the client's home, and they didn't like it. The dealer managed to have Boesendorfer provide full warranty again for the next owner, so factory warranty is not an issue, yet, that piano loss $39K in value. It doesn't make any sense, but is certainly a great deal, if I only had $90K to spend on a piano.

The bottom line in a free and open market is that you buy or sell at whatever price that you feel is right. The good old supply and demand is alway in effect.
_________________________
Art is never finished, only abandoned. - da Vinci

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#2029004 - 02/07/13 09:13 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: 4evrBeginR]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19472
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: 4evrBeginR

An SF Boesendorfer dealer recently had a piano for $90K even though its brand new price was closer to $129K just because it spent a week or two at the client's home, and they didn't like it. The dealer managed to have Boesendorfer provide full warranty again for the next owner, so factory warranty is not an issue, yet, that piano loss $39K in value. It doesn't make any sense, but is certainly a great deal, if I only had $90K to spend on a piano.
Hard to understand what you mean here. Was the piano lent out for free in the hopes the client would buy it? No dealer would do that with a piano that they could sell for 129K if they knew that after two weeks they could only sell it for 90K. Also, those figures don't make sense even for a one year old piano. A piano doesn't lose 30% of its value in even a year.


Edited by pianoloverus (02/07/13 09:29 PM)

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#2029005 - 02/07/13 09:17 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: concertina]
jawhitti Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/12
Posts: 235
I agree that most private sellers really don't know what their pianos at worth. Remember the old saw that it's hard to get a man to understand something when his income depends on him not understanding it,

I was ignorant coming into to market too and hope I don't have to sell any time soon. I paid around 22 k for an eight year-old c6 a few months ago. I doubt I could get that back out of it if I wanted to sell it right now.

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#2029019 - 02/07/13 09:50 PM Re: Why do private sellers price so high? [Re: 4evrBeginR]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2727
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: 4evrBeginR
I think brand new pianos are no different. The first year depreciation is brutal for reasons I still don't understand.
However, unlike cars, a piano doesn't continually depreciate every year to nothing. After a couple of years, the price levels off, and the value during that plateau depreciates very little. In many instances, it will increase in dollar value (due to inflation) because the cost is mostly related to the cost difference from new.

I heard stories about years ago when a customer walked into a store and walked all around looking for the "clearance" buys. The saleman, frustrated that the customer wouldn't make a decision, instead told the customer to wait a minute. "In the back, we have a piano just like this one, but it has a ding on the lid. I can take $300 off that one." The customer lit up at this, so one of the other salesmen rushed off to the back with a hammer to produce the dinged piano. SOLD! The customer got the piano for a steal. wink Obviously, that was in a different economy.

The current economy is unusual. We've been stuck in it for so long we think it is normal. The numbers for many things are not normal. Why would some homes lose 70% of their value in 3 years? It's not normal. It may go on for a long time, but it will not last forever.
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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