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#2024945 - 01/31/13 11:30 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Leaving out that one note goes way beyond "cheating" and is totally inexcusable. Shocking really. For ethical reasons you should change the title of thread immediately.
Funny.. cause when we were talking about Bunin purposely leaving out a note, you said it was just one grain of sand on a giant beach.

....and funny that you call changing the entire nature of a phrase "leaving out a note." grin

(Leaving out the note was the least of it. It was a tiny detail that helped enable him to do his very different interpretation of the phrase.)


AND YET... a single grain on one big beach.

Thanks for helping me prove my point. smile

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#2024946 - 01/31/13 11:30 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
Derulux Offline
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Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5286
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Derulux
If you're not going to regroup the notes (ie Mark's alternate fingering)....

You're absolutely not going to do "Mark's alternate fingering." grin
It's not an alternate fingering, it's a farce.

In honor of you, I may go back, relearn the piece, and record it with your alternate fingering. I will, of course, give you all the credit. And I mean ALL the credit. :p wink
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2024952 - 01/31/13 11:36 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
RealPlayer Offline
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Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 2316
Loc: NYC
At first I thought the reasoning behind the LH "take" was because the player's physiognomy made reaching the RH thumb down there difficult. But then the subsequent measures would again require a "fix."

I might forgive such a thing for one occurrence in a big work, but not where it's an integral, repeated part of the structure.
_________________________
Joe

www.josephkubera.com

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#2024956 - 01/31/13 11:43 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19664
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Thanks for helping me prove my point. smile

Not to make a big thing of it, but glad to be of service. grin

Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Derulux
If you're not going to regroup the notes (ie Mark's alternate fingering)....

You're absolutely not going to do "Mark's alternate fingering." grin
It's not an alternate fingering, it's a farce.

In honor of you, I may go back, relearn the piece, and record it with your alternate fingering. I will, of course, give you all the credit. And I mean ALL the credit. :p wink


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#2024960 - 01/31/13 11:57 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Jonathan Baker]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19664
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Jonathan Baker
Of the C major etude, Chopin said to a student, "If you study this as I intended it, it widens the hand and enables you to play runs of wide broken chords like bow strokes...."

Is that an undisputed quote??

It surprises me if it is, because I've tended to doubt that he much conceived of the etudes as helping develop technique (as most people assume he did). I've viewed them more as compositional studies -- showing how you can create great music with etude figures -- and pieces to display the technique that you have more than to develop it.

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#2024970 - 02/01/13 12:11 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
outo Offline
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Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 529
Loc: Finland
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Jonathan Baker
Of the C major etude, Chopin said to a student, "If you study this as I intended it, it widens the hand and enables you to play runs of wide broken chords like bow strokes...."

Is that an undisputed quote??

It surprises me if it is, because I've tended to doubt that he much conceived of the etudes as helping develop technique (as most people assume he did). I've viewed them more as compositional studies -- showing how you can create great music with etude figures -- and pieces to display the technique that you have more than to develop it.


I don't have time to look for the exact quote, but he did mention in one of his letters about "writing etudes in his manner" and of course he also started to write his method. And it seems he was kind of devoted as a teacher, so I would assume he has this aspect in mind when preparing these.

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#2024990 - 02/01/13 01:19 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
outo Offline
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Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 529
Loc: Finland
The above quote about 10-1 is in Eisedinger's book, page 68. He got it from Niecks. It was supposedly told to Friederike Streicher by Chopin. So it is hearsay, as is most of what we know about his teaching.

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#2025063 - 02/01/13 04:49 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
stores Offline
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Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Jonathan Baker
Of the C major etude, Chopin said to a student, "If you study this as I intended it, it widens the hand and enables you to play runs of wide broken chords like bow strokes...."

Is that an undisputed quote??



It is a fairly well-known quote that is attributed to one of Chopin's students. Of course, ANYONE could dispute it, Mark (as I've no doubt you will).
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2025112 - 02/01/13 07:23 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: JoelW]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19230
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Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Leaving out that one note goes way beyond "cheating" and is totally inexcusable. Shocking really. For ethical reasons you should change the title of thread immediately.


Funny.. cause when we were talking about Bunin purposely leaving out a note, you said it was just one grain of sand on a giant beach.
I was joking this time.

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#2025135 - 02/01/13 08:23 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
trigalg693 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 563
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

Many students study some Chopin etudes at one point but many never play them at a professional speed. This kind of "alteration" makes redistributing a single note look like a single grain of sand on a beach yet I think most students still benefit from doing this kind of practice. This is why teachers assign the Chopin Etudes to pupils so frequently.



I think this is a good point, but Chopin etudes are musically lacking compared to say Liszt or Rachmaninoff etudes, which are excellent short performance pieces if you cut the "etude" off the title, whereas Chopin etudes are less serious music.

I've personally spent over 1 full year on op.10 no.4, and I'm hitting the 2 month mark for op.25 no.6 (at this point in my piano playing career 2 months is a lot on something this short), and I think that's part of the genius of the Chopin etudes; They might not be that musically compelling, but they sure as heck are fun to work on, even if they can be impossibly hard!

As for "cheating", I've seen people move notes over to the left hand in op.10 no.4, which I think completely defeats the purpose. The right hand has no challenge when you do that.

But for example in op.25 no.6, before the last page, that descending A major scale in thirds, I use the left hand to play the D-F#s because it doesn't make things that much easier, but it makes it sound smoother, and if you want to accuse me of making it easier, well I still have to play the harmonic G# minor descending scale with 1 hand, and that one is far far tougher.


Edited by trigalg693 (02/01/13 08:30 AM)

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#2025144 - 02/01/13 08:43 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Damon]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
Quote:
Why would *you* want to cheat in an Etude?
Doesn't it make studying the Etude meaningless?


Sometimes the goal is to make music!


Then you should be playing the Liszt etudes.


Or Rachmaninoff! They're absolutely magnificent.. I mean, take op. 39/2 for example - can you find another etude with a similar emotional content? I love it!!!
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2025146 - 02/01/13 08:48 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

I think, quite frankly, that any discussion of redistributing a single note in any piece, etude or not, is very silly and almost infantile. As one poster's teacher called similar thoughts "majoring in minoring." An extreme example of missing the forest for the trees. Not the thing that I can imagine really good pianists ever do.



Kimura Parker does this ALL the time - would you call him a bad pianist? I'd say he's pretty good.... smile

Sometimes, it's better to sacrifice ONE note than to risk sounding like an idiot and messing up the character because of one silly note that no one would hear anyway. Especially if it's redistributed - I tend to avoid it, but sometimes it's inevitable especially if you cannot reach said note. Sometimes I use that tool to actually achieve a higher musical essence of the specific passage which would otherwise be impossible. In instances like that, it's perfectly okay, especially in thick-layered music (I'm thinking Rachmaninoff or Prokofiev 2nd concerto, stuff like that).


Edited by Pogorelich. (02/01/13 08:48 AM)
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2025197 - 02/01/13 10:23 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
Jonathan Baker Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 06/09/09
Posts: 281
Loc: New York City!
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Is that an undisputed quote??


I don't think that prior to videotape there can be such a thing as an undisputed quote, but my source is here:

"Chopin, Pianist and Teacher, as seen by his pupils." by Jean-Jacques Eigeldinger,
Cambridge Press, 1986. Page 68, in turn quoting Streicher/Niecks, II p. 341.

I presume that any quote by a student of Chopin, Liszt, etc., will be an approximation since they would be writing from memory, even if notated the same day in a private journal.
_________________________
Jonathan Baker
http://www.BakerPianoLessons.com/index.htm

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#2025229 - 02/01/13 11:02 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Pogorelich.]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19230
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

I think, quite frankly, that any discussion of redistributing a single note in any piece, etude or not, is very silly and almost infantile. As one poster's teacher called similar thoughts "majoring in minoring." An extreme example of missing the forest for the trees. Not the thing that I can imagine really good pianists ever do.



Kimura Parker does this ALL the time - would you call him a bad pianist? I'd say he's pretty good.... smile
If so, I'd guess he an the exception.

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#2025250 - 02/01/13 11:45 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: trigalg693]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2290
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: trigalg693
I think this is a good point, but Chopin etudes are musically lacking compared to say Liszt or Rachmaninoff etudes, which are excellent short performance pieces if you cut the "etude" off the title, whereas Chopin etudes are less serious music.


I'm going to disagree here, in more polite terms than I'm inclined to. If you're going to talk about what Chopin's etudes are lacking vs. Liszt or Rachmaninoff, it's certainly not musical quality. They're magnificent in terms of making exercises in technical fundamentals live, breathe and sing. Countless composers have been trying to write better exercises in thirds or sixths for almost 200 years, and only Debussy was able to match him, IMO.

If they are missing anything, it's a large amount of contrast. The end of Chopin's B minor etude in octaves is essentially the same as the beginning, and the center section, though fantastic, is technically repetitive. Liszt's Wilde Jagd has a lot more development and differentiation between sections.

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#2025273 - 02/01/13 12:03 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: jeffreyjones]
trigalg693 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 563
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones

If they are missing anything, it's a large amount of contrast. The end of Chopin's B minor etude in octaves is essentially the same as the beginning, and the center section, though fantastic, is technically repetitive. Liszt's Wilde Jagd has a lot more development and differentiation between sections.


Well, that's what I'm getting at. They are very simplistic and repetitive, and while that material would make a good few passages in a larger work, there is not much variety. Of course they are very short so there isn't time for much development, but the structure of a piece is important, not just the parts that constitute it.

Chopin etudes are like a more lyrical Czerny etude, whereas Liszt etudes have more structure and development to them. The technical focus is woven into a larger framework, and the technical focus itself is broader, and so I think it's more appropriate for general programming.


Edited by trigalg693 (02/01/13 12:04 PM)

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#2025350 - 02/01/13 02:37 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
Vid Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 808
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Originally Posted By: Mark_C



Mr. Bill! That takes me back. ha
_________________________
Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

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#2025353 - 02/01/13 02:44 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: jeffreyjones]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19664
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Originally Posted By: trigalg693
I think this is a good point, but Chopin etudes are musically lacking compared to say Liszt or Rachmaninoff etudes, which are excellent short performance pieces if you cut the "etude" off the title, whereas Chopin etudes are less serious music.

I'm going to disagree here, in more polite terms than I'm inclined to....

Thanks -- you kept me from having to do the impoliteness. grin
Especially about the Chopin.

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#2025374 - 02/01/13 03:09 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: trigalg693]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3726
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: trigalg693
Well, that's what I'm getting at. They are very simplistic and repetitive, and while that material would make a good few passages in a larger work, there is not much variety. Of course they are very short so there isn't time for much development, but the structure of a piece is important, not just the parts that constitute it.

Chopin etudes are like a more lyrical Czerny etude, whereas Liszt etudes have more structure and development to them. The technical focus is woven into a larger framework...


I couldn't disagree with this more. I think that Chopin's etudes are among his very greatest compositions, on par with the ballades, nocturnes and preludes, among others. The B minor "octaves etude" happens to be one of my least favorites, so I won't argue there. But all the rest are, for me, examples of the most subtle, rarified art. I like Liszt's, but the Chopin etudes are in a different league for me. I'm surprised at how many here view their purpose as pedagogical.

-J
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

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#2025380 - 02/01/13 03:17 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: beet31425]
jeffreyjones Offline
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Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2290
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: beet31425
I couldn't disagree with this more. I think that Chopin's etudes are among his very greatest compositions, on par with the ballades, nocturnes and preludes, among others. The B minor "octaves etude" happens to be one of my least favorites, so I won't argue there. But all the rest are, for me, examples of the most subtle, rarified art. I like Liszt's, but the Chopin etudes are in a different league for me. I'm surprised at how many here view their purpose as pedagogical.

-J


The musical quality makes them better pedagogical works, not worse.

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#2025439 - 02/01/13 04:37 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Pogorelich.]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6080
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
Quote:
Why would *you* want to cheat in an Etude?
Doesn't it make studying the Etude meaningless?


Sometimes the goal is to make music!


Then you should be playing the Liszt etudes.


Or Rachmaninoff! They're absolutely magnificent.. I mean, take op. 39/2 for example - can you find another etude with a similar emotional content? I love it!!!


thumb I like the Chopin etudes, but they strike me as pop tunes with a technical problem thrown on top. Hard to learn, easy to memorize.
_________________________
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#2025457 - 02/01/13 05:05 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19664
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Damon
I like the Chopin etudes, but they strike me as pop tunes with a technical problem thrown on top. Hard to learn, easy to memorize.

Totally false!!!
(Although, the melody of the F major 10/8 does seem to stolen from an old Beef-A-Roni commercial.) ha


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#2025471 - 02/01/13 05:20 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
I NEVER cheat in any of Chopin's etudes.

More specifically, I don't play Chopin's etudes. grin

Regarding musical value of Chopin's etudes vs. his nocturnes or ballades or sonatas; They are all different kinds of compositions, and I think the etudes have wonderful musical value. It's hard for me to compare his etudes to his nocturnes or sonatas for example, but if you asked me what I'd rather listen to, I'll always answer with nocturnes, sonatas, ballades, etc.

Regarding musical value of etudes in general, Liszt's and Rachmaninoff's etudes are longer and more expansive, whereas Chopin's are almost always a short A-B-A form and more or less chord progressions over a technical difficulty. Also, L's/R's etudes aren't just chord progressions over technical difficulties. I am in NO means saying anything negative about or discrediting Chopin's etudes by saying that; it's just that L/R did different things than Chopin. Chopin's seem a bit more standardized to me.

THEN you have my favorite under-appreciated composer, who combines the technical concentration of Chopin and musical/formal expansion of Liszt. wink http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly8SVwZGoHk


Edited by Orange Soda King (02/01/13 05:29 PM)

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#2025477 - 02/01/13 05:29 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Orange Soda King]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19664
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
....THEN you have my favorite under-appreciated composer, who combines the technical concentration of Chopin and musical/formal expansion of Liszt. wink http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly8SVwZGoHk

I had a feeling it was going to be him. grin

BTW I agree.

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#2025498 - 02/01/13 05:55 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Orange Soda King]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4852
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
I NEVER cheat in any of Chopin's etudes.

More specifically, I don't play Chopin's etudes. grin



THEN you have my favorite under-appreciated composer, who combines the technical concentration of Chopin and musical/formal expansion of Liszt. wink http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly8SVwZGoHk


You don't even play Chopin's Op.10/12 or Op.25/1?? (BTW, no need to cheat in either; actually, it's easier to play them without cheating grin)

As for Alkan, some of his music sound a trifle relentless to me..... wink....though I still love it, especially when played by Hamelin or Gibbons. But not sure I'd want to play it myself (OK, I've never tried....).

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#2025502 - 02/01/13 06:02 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: bennevis]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19664
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: bennevis
....Op.10/12 or Op.25/1?? (BTW, no need to cheat in either; actually, it's easier to play them without cheating grin)

Actually it isn't -- I play 10/12 by crossing the hands and playing the LH part with the RH. ha

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#2025506 - 02/01/13 06:06 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Thrill Science Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 513
Loc: California
Here's another cheat I do!



Again 10/1. Top is what's written, bottom is what I play. Here, unlike the example that started this thread, I actually omit a note.

Please don't report me to Piano Protective Services! I don't want the authorities to show up at my door and take my Bösendorfer away!
_________________________
Robert Swirsky
Thrill Science, Inc.

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#2025601 - 02/01/13 09:10 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2119
Loc: Canada
I cheat by performing the Godowsky etudes which are easier than the originals...
_________________________
Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata op. 109
Brahms - 6 Klavierstucke op. 119
Rachmaninoff - Piano Sonata no.1

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#2025614 - 02/01/13 09:40 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Kuanpiano]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
I cheat by performing the Godowsky etudes which are easier than the originals...


PLEASE tell me that you have an easier time with Godowsky's left hand arrangement of 10/2 than Chopin's 10/2. crazy

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#2025621 - 02/01/13 09:50 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2119
Loc: Canada
Well, I just did op.10 no.6 :P
_________________________
Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata op. 109
Brahms - 6 Klavierstucke op. 119
Rachmaninoff - Piano Sonata no.1

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