Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum What think technicians about of max's temperament?

YEs John I know, but that was the opportunity to discuss with more interesting people that pushed me to state my own present view and experience on the subject.

We have no real clear demonstration of the forces acting when tuning, never find any concrete in books or discussions. Videos often show nothing or only a partial job done, or fancy things out of primal interest.

plus, we need imaginative words to describe what we are doing

I agree T lever is OK for soft enough pinblocks, agreable to avoid any bending, but not adapted to real tuning with lot of pin motion, today. (I have used mine for a few pianos some years ago)

I heard the same false beats, Mark, the strings were all kind of alive and kicking, one-by-one. The hammers on the piano are rather worn, too. I brushed them slightly before I did the recording. It got better, but I will have to replace them with a new hammer set soon.

And thank you for your endorsement of the aurally-tuned unisons vs. the CyberTuners dead-on lock - I certainly liked them better, too. Especially when it comes down to false beats, the ear can practice "flower arranging" and put together a quite nice bouqet in a way that I have a hard time seeing an ETD do.



Thank's Chris, this is certainly interesting! I know of quite a few people preferring twangy unisons, too. I think they get accustomed to "the warmth" of slightly out-of-tune unisons.

Even though one might suspect that I'd be heavily biased since taking up tuning, I always liked very pure unisons on the piano, even as a child. Aah, the sound of those big, silvery raindrops. Many movie soundtracks feature that sound, and there is nothing quite like it.

Dear rxd, I carefully study all that you write about that topic. I'm sorry that you had to hard to translate my gibberish. Now I'm a lot of practice with the lever. Octaves, fifths, fourths, and major third.
I am honored that you have worked with a T-bar for me.
Now , few days I concentrated on the lever, I hope I can do it.
Regards Your student extra-mural Max

Johnkie,you are mistaken. Max is not "a teacher" but a "perpetual student". Theme is created not for Max. It is for anyone interested in understanding their own temperament in practice and a test understand of others. Max realizes not all, but he tries. That it is helped him messages of members our forum

I hate to say this, but if you tuned unisons with strings 2 cents apart for some of my customers, they would be inclined to ask you to return when your feeling better. I've been called to tune/touch up pianos where they were better than that to begin with.

There are many tooners who try and get a perfectly clear unison and are convinced they have it and its really out by a few cents...why would any professional want to take two steps backwards and try and emulate that which another person comes up short on?

The fact is that the tone of strings is too much instable to the ETD to really appreciate clearly the levels I noticed , which are 0.1 to 0.4 cts (far from 1ct I admit, and it was in mediums on a low level iH scale)

But this will probably depend of the kind of scale and the condition the strings a piano have.

As none of us take some time (once the piano is tuned) to pluck the strings and listen attentively to them one by one trying to hear which one is perfctly coupling with another and which one is there to regulate the dynamic of the unison, those effect most of us use without knowing (as soon they understood how a nice sounding unison speaks)

We dont ascertain how things really go on in the pianos, in the end.

To obtain that very clear and , more important, manageable attack, the pitch of the strings have some slight difference.
If not your tuning can stand for one hour playing maximum.

MAny pianists hate any moaning in unisons, it must be crisp, clear and with amanageable aftertone (meaning the attack allow to enflate the aftertone in a clear sustained tone without any perceptible beat)

Too much concentration of justness immediately use most of the energy for the attack then the aftersound is short and , strangely the dynamic even the one of the attack, is reduced)

I suppose that good tuners shape the tone, stop thinking beats or ETD display, and then the problem is to have enough distance with the tone produced, to hear it as if it is a few meters apart. (what I call having quiet ears)

concentrating on beats in the partials helps to be attentive, but give no controal on the final dynamic quality of the tone.

Once I tuning a unison F4. There was some extra beat in the strings. The average string is the usual that is 0.7 mm. On each side of the string were looking more big diametr. I made specifically remeasure is 0.73 mm. Unison I built, but the upper harmonics added additional overtones. Note F4 and E4 respectively had a rich sound. The pianist, who tested the setting wrinkled his brow when the chords come across these sounds. Three hundredths not misrepresented the location is the problem

Max.
It is likely that you will come across unusual repairs in some of the pianos you see. Often the correct size wire may not be a available. It is possible to tune differing sizes of wire into a presentable unison but what is most likely to happen is that the larger diameter wire is hit first by the hammer makIng the unison out of phase.

What your " musician" is hearing is the poor tone quality that results from out of phase strings. The best repair is to replace the string with the correct size but this may not be an option for you. You can massage a slight backward curve in the string by pressing along it with a piece of wood or other soft material (brass) so that the hammer hits all three strings as close to the same moment as possible . Doing this rarely solves the problem completely and there are other things you can do but it is best for us not to advise doing anything else in case somebody wants to repair it properly at a later date. Adjusting it further involves loss of felt and you could easily make the problem worse only to lose more felt when the correct string is fitted. ( you could also massage a reverse(outward) curve in the thinner strings with a stringing hook. Yo u can make one from a steel crochet hook bent to take a handle. Better than some of the clumsy affairs currently being sold.

Do not rely on the opinion of 'musicians' at this point. The one you mentioned could only make judgemental faces and could not help you. What use Is that? With all due respect to them, Some 'musicians' might just guide you astray right now.

Well spotted on the different diameters.

You will sometimes find false strings in that area. You can make even those sound still in a unison if you are really good.

Do your best.

R

Dear rxd, thanks for your response about the regime works in choirs of strings different diameters. But I do not understand the mechanism of "the crochet hook". How to do this? If you are not hard, maybe there is a photos?
Regards,Max

Max.
Google 'crochet hook'. The Wikipedia entry in English has
some pictures.

Any sewing shop or hobby shop has them in different sizes.
Most are plastic some are metal. Choose the strongest and a medium size that looks like it would work.

Be careful not to kink or bend the string, just massage a curve into it.

It is non invasive and reversible.

Excellent tip RXD, very good spring hooks ?

I use a thick wire (21 ?) installed on a long dowel, make a fulcrum on the capo or on the felt in front of the pins, it is easy to use but care must be taken not to install a kink.

I like massaging, but older wire does not move easily

Upright damper springs, perhaps. For grand butterfly springs I would want to grind off the tip and file a groove in it for pushing the spring out. The American tool with the tiny grooved disc at the end and the last couple of cm. bent at a slight angle is excellent for grand repetition springs. It was originally privately made and marketed but now most supply houses carry it.

Dear rxd,I use a thick crochet hook, but in order to remove rust from the strings. I release a pin half a turn, and treated with a place in the capo (bar plate). I have not understand out how to reduce the diameter when we are just massage a curve into it hook on the back side of string?

I'm intensively and seriously working to make a temperament. I use the lever and a mute. While the results are negative unfortunately

Yes. Use the hook on the back side of the string. A gentle massage from the damper upwards while the string is at tension.
This does not reduce the diameter of the string but simply raises the level of the string so that the hammer hits all three strings at the same time. The diameter remains the same.

By lowering the tension of the string, you have reduced the stability of that string a lot. It will take some time and tunings to regain that stability so don't expect too much from that note right now. The presence of rust and replacement string in that area of the piano would tell me to be careful. The best cure, as I said, is to replace the wire.

You will need strings and parts to be a successful tuner. With today's communications, surely you could contact the technicians at a music school and ask them where they get their parts. Don't start arguing with them or trying to teach them as you do with us or they will simply ignore you and they won't want to help you. They have to get parts somehow. Are there Internet sites you can use? Google your words for " piano wire". See what you come up with.

I got the idea of the crochet hook from a student while unsuccessfully looking for a halfway decent stringing hook at the supply houses. She worked as a Saturday girl at a hobby store and saw potential piano tools everywhere. One of the handiest combination heavy duty wirecutters and parallel pliers i ever had came from a hobby store.

I realise that it is difficult to translate the books you were sent because each word has to be entered into the computer unless you have a special scanner.

There are articles already on the Internet that are translator ready. They will be of good use to you.

I see,rxd

Can you make a video when you tune an unison ? for the temperament you have to be sure your string will not move first

Your welcome, Mark! Sorry, I missed this post earlier.

I can't make "tune an unison video" now because I have not own camera,sorry

Why? Have that pianos weak pinblocks?

Good question, Max.

Habit, really. The T- hammer was used exusively for early instruments. A lever was probably not even considered. the string diameters were thinner, made of brass and smaller pins. Much easier to turn.

As wire diameters became thicker in pianos and higher tensions were beginning to be used, a T-hammer was still sufficient. It's use was taught into the 1960's and first year students of tuning at one school had to use it exclusively for the first year. Most likely on the older pianos. Students taught in factories and rebuilding shops were trained with the lever to the best of my knowledge.

I have just quickly checked 45 very heavily played pianos here that have been tuned with a T- hammer on their last tuning. I had no tuning to do. For me, the speed is marginally faster than anything else I use.

I did this so that I could talk with some authority about my experience.

There is an awful lot of stuff on this forum that really should be prefaced with the words "I would think" or "I imagine".

I am a 6'1 medium build person and perhaps a little stronger than most but by absolutely no means the bodybuilder type. I find that turning a T hammer clockwise takes no more thumb pressure (RH) than it takes on a lever in order to turn a springy pin without springing it. The reverse is usually just to set the pin so doesn't take much.

I use pure pin setting and let the students do my test blows so I don't beat them in. I feel the string instead.

The last time I wrote on this tool, I mentioned that I couldn't make pure turning motions with it. After 10 days of two hours with it every morning, I find that I can turn a pin in smaller and smaller increments without springing it. (eliminating the "marshmallow zone").
I don't really know what I'm doing different. More thumb pressure, perhaps?

Note to Max.

The way you use your T-bar hammer frightens me. The tool you have lends itself to abuse too easily and there are too many bad habits to eradicate. Please stay with the lever for me. I know it is like starting all over again and that is the best thing, right here, right now.