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#2021817 - 01/26/13 06:53 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
SteveConslaw Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/04/11
Posts: 12
Loc: Indiana, USA
I don't suppose that there's one piano that sounds the best every piece of music. I have a AP620. I agree the decay is short. The competing pianos in the same price class as the AP620 (and now the AP650) all have their own trade-offs.

If you have already bought the AP650 and don't like the decay, but you like the keyboard feel, the features, and maybe the other sounds, you might want to consider midi'ing your piano to a sound source with a piano that is more your liking. I store my iPad on top of my piano. For cabling reasons, I don't always have it hooked up to midi cables, but I can do so in seconds. The quality of iOS music software is improving, and there are some good piano sounds including Garageband's main piano. (The quality of iOS pianos is not up to the best Windows OR MacOS software pianos, however.) You could play your iPad through the piano speakers if you want, but I play mine through a set of 2.1 computer speakers instead.
_________________________
Step Back! he's got a synthesizer, and he isn't afraid to use it.

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#2021829 - 01/26/13 07:27 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9088
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: DBill
Note to Kawai James

The other piano that I was seriously considering was a Kawai CN34. The deal breaker here was the lack of competitive bidding by Kawai dealers. (And this is forced from higher up in the company.) I was able to get quotes a little better than the “Buy Now” prices at http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/CNxx4/cn34.html , but not anywhere near what a straight currency conversion plus VAT adjustment would give from a UK dealer.

The CN34 is a good machine, and I would rate it slightly better than a Celviano 650. If the price were only “slightly higher” than that for a Casio 650 (estimated at $1,500 +/-), I would have gone the CN34 route.


DBill, thank you for your post.

However, I do not have any involvement in how Kawai America set their prices.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2021940 - 01/27/13 01:25 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: pv88]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2625
Here is a new recording (another longer excerpt) of the Schubert Impromptu, this time at the Kawai EP3, as I have replaced the previous recording (at the CA95 earlier in the thread) with this one:

[17 seconds of silence before playing starts]

https://www.box.com/s/3uhyiz8fa3w1qdpeithm

This, to my ears, is how the melodic line should "sing" as the lowly EP3 (that many here don't think much of) does a great job with its sustain and resonance. The playing is not perfect as it contains a few errors.

Wanted to demonstrate the initial decay attack of the EP3, as I believe it easily outperforms the previous Casio's I owned.

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#2024060 - 01/30/13 01:29 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
One of the first few retailers offering the Casio Celviano AP 650 for sale is Jim Laabs Music.
http://www.jimlaabsmusic.com/pianos/digitals/celviano-ap650-digital-piano/prod_7704.html

They advertised “Call for Price” so I did. (1-800-657-5125)

Unfortunately Casio called shortly before I did and said they weren’t allowed to sell outside their district, and thus couldn’t give me a price. Thus I don’t know what their price is, but it’s a sign that the 650 will be available at other dealers in the near future.

(If you call, say you live somewhere in Minnesota or Wisconsin. See http://www.jimlaabsmusic.com/about-us/info_1.html and maybe you will be among the first to hear what the 650 is selling for.)

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#2024149 - 01/30/13 04:38 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
It looks like Jim Laabs Music jumped the gun in advertising the Celviano 650 as they have pulled the ad. (Wouldn’t be surprised if Mike contacted them and read the riot act.)

I saved a Print Screen picture of the ad if anyone is interested. If you want to see the picture, send me a Private Message and I’ll see if I can paste it in a follow-up message.

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#2024383 - 01/31/13 12:56 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
SteveConslaw Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/04/11
Posts: 12
Loc: Indiana, USA
The Kawai CN34 appears to have features that are more comparable to the (Casio) Celviano AP420/450. It's hard to get pricing information, but it appears to be more in line with the AP620/650. I watched a demo of the CN34 on Youtube, and it certainly seemed to have a longer decay than my AP620. (I have never heard the 650.)

The Roland RP301R may have a strong piano sound, but it has a much lower modesty panel than either the Celvianos or the CN34, so it won't look as nice in the living room.
_________________________
Step Back! he's got a synthesizer, and he isn't afraid to use it.

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#2024393 - 01/31/13 01:42 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Mike_Martin]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 572
Loc: Mt View, CA
(...)

Andy's work is ridiculously nice!


Edited by xorbe (01/31/13 12:55 PM)

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#2024584 - 01/31/13 11:16 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
The AP 620 and AP 650 have different sound engines, and thus their tone decay times are going to be different. The relatively short decay time on the 620 (and the Privia x30 series) has been noted by multiple other people in other reviews, so it’s been pretty well documented.

It would be nice if we had some hard data comparing the decay rate on various machines. Perhaps someone on this forum can go into a piano store and play a “standard chord” on various digital and acoustic pianos and time the number of seconds that the tone remains audible. Then post the results here. (Better yet, if possible, measure the decay amount during the first second as well the total decay time.)

There is no such thing as a “standard piano” and what is a good decay rate for one person (and the music that they play) is going to be different for someone else. Thus there is no such thing as a “standard decay rate”. If you are going to buy/play a piano, you should do your homework so that you can buy a machine that satisfies your personal preferences. (I’m a retired “computer nerd” so I tend to call them machines instead of pianos.)

I’m still in the process of trying to buy a piano/machine. I also concluded that the Kawai CN34 and Casio Celviano 650 are similar machines. Thus it comes down to price.

Kawai has prices for the CN34 posted here ( http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/CNxx4/cn34.html ), but the quoted $2399 to $2499 prices are more akin to what Kawai would like to have some sucker pay as opposed to a “fair market price”. I was able to get telephone quotes from dealers a couple of hundred under the above. If you can physically walk into a Kawai dealership, you can probably get still lower quotes.

If you calculate a “fair market price” for a Kawai CN34 based on what they are selling for in the UK, then the U.S. price for a CN34 should be about $1,600.

For example:

UK price for a CN34 = 1215 UK Pounds http://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/kawai-cn34...-digital-pianos

Decrease the above price to take out the 20% UK Value Added Tax
1215 / 1.2 = 1012.5 UK Pounds
https://www.gov.uk/vat/overview (Value added tax = 20%)
https://www.gov.uk/vat/where-you-see-vat “it’s already included in the price”

Convert to U. S. $ = approximately $1,605
http://www.dollars2pounds.com/ (Exchange rate varies continuously)

If Kawai dealers had been willing to sell a CN34 for anywhere near the above price, I would have bought a CN34. However, they weren’t willing, and as a result I will be buying a Celviano 650 as soon as they are available. (Estimated price for a 650 will be around $1500 +/-.)

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#2024626 - 01/31/13 12:20 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
We need to be clear about the improvements that Casio state they've made to the "decay" on the 650 from the 620 (and I suspect the PX-330 to the PX-350).

The decay that I've had serious issue with is I believe known as the "initial decay" - this is exceptionally different to the (for want of a better word) "overall decay" - ie the time it takes for the sound to be inaudible after playing the note.

As I understand it the "overall decay" is improved on the x50 range.

The "initial" decay has NOT changed. So the problem remains. it dies away too quick.

Fast passages will sound acceptable (perhaps even without this improvement) as the initial decay is perhaps not as relevant.

However - passages where the melody must "sing" and be prolonged are unacceptable. The schubert impromptu is just an example of where this flaw lies. Mikes rendition (despite being performed well) clearly shows this.

Here's another example from my own repetoire...Schuberts Ave Maria. Comments welcomed !

Andy

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#2024691 - 01/31/13 02:46 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
The
“Better yet, if possible, measure the decay amount during the first second as well the total decay time.”
that I referred to is the same thing that Andy is referring to as “initial decay”.

If someone can take the time to actually measure this “initial decay in volume level”, then we could compare one instrument with another. (I.E. compare the volume decrease from one one-hundredth of second after a note is played to the volume level that remains one second after a note is played.)

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#2024713 - 01/31/13 03:10 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1841
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: DBill
The
“Better yet, if possible, measure the decay amount during the first second as well the total decay time.”
that I referred to is the same thing that Andy is referring to as “initial decay”.

If someone can take the time to actually measure this “initial decay in volume level”, then we could compare one instrument with another. (I.E. compare the volume decrease from one one-hundredth of second after a note is played to the volume level that remains one second after a note is played.)


You can apply all sorts of scientific measures to this issue.

It still comes down to playing it and listening for yourself.

If you cannot play it and there are several "warnings" about this issue, then you would be wise to reconsider the purchase.

If you just want to forge ahead and purchase it, regardless of the warnings, then you will eventually have the "truth" ... as you hear it anyway.
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D

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#2024893 - 01/31/13 09:12 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
I guess I’ll have to follow “expert” advice.

dmd:
“For that kind of money you can also get the Casio PX-350.
I have never been a fan of Casio due to what I consider too short of a decay on the tones.
However, I played the 350 over the weekend and they seem to have overcome that problem and the tone is excellent. “

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1990831/Re:%20Casio%20Celviano%20AP-420%20vs%20Y.html#Post1990831


Note: The Celviano 650 has the same sound engine as the PX-350

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#2024896 - 01/31/13 09:18 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2625
Originally Posted By: andy0140
Here's another example from my own repetoire...Schuberts Ave Maria.


Andy,

Looks like you forgot to include the link to your recording?

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#2024923 - 01/31/13 10:33 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1841
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: DBill
I guess I’ll have to follow “expert” advice.

dmd:
“For that kind of money you can also get the Casio PX-350.
I have never been a fan of Casio due to what I consider too short of a decay on the tones.
However, I played the 350 over the weekend and they seem to have overcome that problem and the tone is excellent. “

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1990831/Re:%20Casio%20Celviano%20AP-420%20vs%20Y.html#Post1990831


Note: The Celviano 650 has the same sound engine as the PX-350


You are right about my comment.

Note the use of my word ... SEEM ...

I was not consciously checking for issues with decay but ... yes, I did not notice anything that alarmed me.

The part about having the same engine is something I have heard so you may be correct.

But, it still would not be enough for me to purchase it without playing it first.

I learned my lesson on that with my purchase of the AP-620 so I am a little extra cautious about this sort of thing.

Good Luck to you.
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D

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#2025066 - 02/01/13 04:54 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: pv88]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
PV88 - Wasnt planning on providing a recording...just using this as another example of where the legato melody would be let down by the intital decay on the AP-650.

There will be, as you can imagine many more pieces that will struggle on the AP-650 with this decay issue. I'm just using examples from my own repetoire.









Edited by andy0140 (02/01/13 06:38 AM)

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#2025081 - 02/01/13 05:43 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2625
Originally Posted By: andy0140
PV88 - Wasnt planning on providing a recording...just using this as another example of where the legato melody would be let down by the intital decay on the AP-650.

There will be, as you can imagine many more pieces that will struggle on the AP-650 with this decay issue. I'm just using examples from my own repetoire.


Okay, I see... and, yes, the "initial decay" is definitely the issue, no doubt.

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#2025949 - 02/02/13 03:25 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 572
Loc: Mt View, CA
Originally Posted By: andy0140
Roland RP-301R

What do you think of the Casio x50 action vs the Roland Ivory Feel-G w/Escapement?

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#2025966 - 02/02/13 04:42 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
Pretty similar really. Casio probably shades it by a fraction for realism but the sound is a major letdown.

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#2026066 - 02/02/13 09:55 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
PianoWorksATL Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2705
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Hello Andy,

Are your arms yet tired of beating this dead horse? All 23 of your first 23 forum posts over 2+ months are related to your brief disappointment before exchanging the instrument. Did the piano kick your dog before it left? Your post is here for all to read, search, consider or ignore.

I'm glad you are happy with your Roland (I'm pretty attached to my own Roland) but join the forum and find another topic to discuss. What started off as your story has become tiresome. As of now, all I see typical, anonymous trolling in a clear pattern.
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bsendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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#2026310 - 02/03/13 01:09 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
Bit out of order. I was just answering a question. I came onto this forum to share my experiences with other dp enthusiasts and to discuss the Casio and give my honest opinion. If you find it tiresome don't read this thread. I'm sure other members have taken an interest in this topic.

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#2026460 - 02/03/13 06:23 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2625
Originally Posted By: andy0140
Bit out of order. I was just answering a question. I came onto this forum to share my experiences with other dp enthusiasts and to discuss the Casio and give my honest opinion. If you find it tiresome don't read this thread. I'm sure other members have taken an interest in this topic.


Yes, you have done the right thing in getting this info out as I have owned several Casio digitals with issues, too.

All Casio digitals, thus far, do not have sufficient decay and resonance.

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#2026878 - 02/04/13 12:24 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
PianoWorksATL Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2705
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: andy0140
I was just answering a question.
That's disingenuous. You told your story freely (no problem there, but it was not in response to anyone else) and then kept bringing it back up. I didn't jump on you for your opinion, but when someone has only one message to express over and over (all 23 of their first 23 posts) experience has shown me that eventually they turn out to be socks or trolls.

To characterize a sound you don't like as a flaw is also disingenuous. A buzz is a flaw. A failing note is a flaw. A bad power supply is a flaw. A sound profile is very intentional. Not liking it is like not liking dark chocolate or coffee. One doesn't attack the coffee unless it is stale or cold. You simply offer your opinion and move on.

The V-piano from Roland gets some funny, controversial attention, but from members who participate in a greater variety of discussions. I like when new people participate, ask questions and share opinions. Most new members tend to ask more questions first and opine later. I naturally question when they have only one and always negative agenda. If you participate on other forums, you have to admit this is logical.
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bsendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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#2026894 - 02/04/13 12:43 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: PianoWorksATL]
KLSinCT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/12
Posts: 148
Loc: Stonington, CT USA
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
Originally Posted By: andy0140
I was just answering a question.
That's disingenuous. You told your story freely (no problem there, but it was not in response to anyone else) and then kept bringing it back up. I didn't jump on you for your opinion, but when someone has only one message to express over and over (all 23 of their first 23 posts) experience has shown me that eventually they turn out to be socks or trolls.

To characterize a sound you don't like as a flaw is also disingenuous. A buzz is a flaw. A failing note is a flaw. A bad power supply is a flaw. A sound profile is very intentional. Not liking it is like not liking dark chocolate or coffee. One doesn't attack the coffee unless it is stale or cold. You simply offer your opinion and move on.

The V-piano from Roland gets some funny, controversial attention, but from members who participate in a greater variety of discussions. I like when new people participate, ask questions and share opinions. Most new members tend to ask more questions first and opine later. I naturally question when they have only one and always negative agenda. If you participate on other forums, you have to admit this is logical.


+1 thumb I couldn't have said it better myself, Sam....

K.
_________________________
Kevin L. Spindler
Early Keyboard Instruments
Stonington, CT
Harpsichords & Clavichords
Custom Instruments Built to Order
Rebuilding, Repair & Restoration
http://www.facebook.com/kevin.spindler.129

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#2026925 - 02/04/13 01:38 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: pv88]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1841
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: pv88
Originally Posted By: andy0140
Bit out of order. I was just answering a question. I came onto this forum to share my experiences with other dp enthusiasts and to discuss the Casio and give my honest opinion. If you find it tiresome don't read this thread. I'm sure other members have taken an interest in this topic.


Yes, you have done the right thing in getting this info out as I have owned several Casio digitals with issues, too.

All Casio digitals, thus far, do not have sufficient decay and resonance.



I agree that it was good to get the message out. I too, had a bad experience with the AP-620.

However, I don't think it needs to be ARGUED, over and over.

I would suggest that you give out your opinion based on your experience and then leave it at that.

There is no need to "convince" someone that you are right.

They will find out the truth soon enough.

And, when they do ... they will listen a little more closely next time.





Edited by dmd (02/04/13 01:40 PM)
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D

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#2028241 - 02/06/13 05:02 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
I would like to buy a Celviano AP 650, but I’m running into a lot of dead ends as to who might be able to sell one. Also, there doesn’t appear to be any info about what the sales price might be.

For example, Casio’s “Store Locator” (at http://www.casiomusicgear.com/wheretobuy ) doesn’t find anything for Celvianos.

Mike?

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#2028265 - 02/06/13 05:44 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
They were working on the dealer locator today. It may be fixed by tomorrow. Send me a PM and I can see if I can find out near you.
_________________________
-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
Privia Pro PX-5S Audio Demos

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#2029355 - 02/08/13 03:01 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
Andy, pv88, and Don may very well get “the last laugh”. While my first choice WAS a Casio Celviano AP 650, there is an ongoing problem with Casio as to their ability to sell it. (And of course – my ability to buy it.)

I talked with the Kawai dealer this morning (Schmitt Music in Denver) and got a firm price quote on a Kawai CN34. They are temporally out of stock but will have an incoming shipment early next week. The Kawai will cost several hundred dollars more than the Casio (and this is a guess as I can’t get a firm quote for the 650), but at this point the CN34 has one very large advantage. (It is something other than “vaporware”.)

Basically, it’s come down to Casio getting its act together. If Casio is able to sell me a Celviano AP 650 by early next week (before the CN34 can ship), I’ll buy the 650. Otherwise it will be the CN34.

As to which of the above possibilities appears more likely, I’ve downloaded and am reading the User’s Manual for the CN34.

Note to Mike:
As of this morning, Casio’s Dealer Locator still doesn’t show anything for any major city in Colorado or for that matter, in my neighboring state of New Mexico.

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#2029383 - 02/08/13 04:08 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 853
Loc: Lakewood, CA
DBill
Try sending Mike a PM. I think he will do what he can and try and help.

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#2029388 - 02/08/13 04:19 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
In Casio's defense:

it's a new model - it has to be made and shipped AND distributed among many countries and dealers (they can't have piles of stock all at once); the CN34 has been around a while longer, so I don't think it's really fair to compare the two on their availability at this moment. It simply takes time to ramp up production and stock all dealers worldwide.

Other than that both seem relatively good products , although different in some respects. I would choose what I like best, not what comes one , or two weeks earlier or later. In context of it's expected lifespan and use that means nothing...

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#2029412 - 02/08/13 05:15 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1841
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: DBill
Andy, pv88, and Don may very well get “the last laugh”.


I am not considering this discussion a contest to see who wins. I was (and am) only relating what my experience was and then giving you my best advice based on that experience.

I am pretty sure that if you take my advice (play it before purchasing it) you will be able to make a good decision.

If you decide to ignore that advice, that is fine too. I have no dog in the race.

If things work out for you ... great. If not, I certainly will not be laughing.

Life goes on ...
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D

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