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Note to dkong99

If you want more info on the Celviano 650, you can download the User’s Manual here.
http://support.casio.com/manualfile.php?rgn=1&cid=008001015

The 650 has 14 different “pianos” which PianoManChuck demos here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgtpUCPDPUs
Note that the sound engine in the Privia 350 is the same as what the 650 has. Each of these piano tones can be further refined.

The 650 has 250 different tones (electric pianos, organs, etc.) which should cover just about every musical instrument that you might want to experiment with. However, if you want to try musical tesla coils http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singing_Tesla_coil , you’re out of luck.
(For an electrifying performance of “In the Hall of the Mountain King” see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LAhKkPUo_A
Isn’t it “amazing” that they don’t have groupies sneaking up on the stage.)

The rapid decay time was an issue in earlier versions of Privas and Celvianos, but as far as I’m concerned the decay time is OK in the new Privas and Celvianos. (x50 series) For additional information, run a Google search using:
Privia decay

Finally, I’m looking for a digital piano that fits in as a piece of furniture as well as being “the best bang for the buck”.

I will be buying a Casio Celviano 650 as soon as they are available. If for some reason I don’t like it, there’s no law that says I can’t buy something else a year or two from now.

My thoughts exactly. Unless one actually tries the AP-650 in person, it is silly to pass judgment.

And you're right,

[quote][/quote]I will be buying a Casio Celviano 650 as soon as they are available. If for some reason I don’t like it, there’s no law that says I can’t buy something else a year or two from now.

Actually, since the EP3 costs $1,100 and the AP-620 is only $1,400 they are pretty close in price. Also, there is no question of the EP3 having nice long sustain in the samples as the overall harmonic resonance is very good. What I heard from the AP-620's speakers is not nearly at the same level of realism as the EP3's which sound a lot like an acoustic grand. The decay in the AP-620 was in fact so short that I simply could not render many classical pieces correctly, with the 1st movement of the "Moonlight" sonata being yet another example.

Yes, you pay more for the cabinets in the Celviano models, however, I can assure you that the new AP-650's samples are still not long enough, as andy1040 and I have compared notes on our digitals. You do get a louder speaker system in the AP-650 (compared to the Privias) although it remains the same as the AP-620's speakers. The louder speakers (at 60 watts) do not help the piano to project its short samples which are not sufficient. Aside from the extremely short decay (and, thin harmonic resonance) the AP-650 does have a ton of sounds and features, none of which improves the piano samples.

pv88, just to clarify, have you played the AP-650, or any of the new Casio models?

James
x

I have previously owned the AP-620, PX-130, and, CDP-100. Please note that Casio states they have expanded the capacity of the AP-650's memory 3x (times). This new memory allocation has not appeared to help much with the decay or sustain time, as the OP (andy0140) has mentioned.

There is no question that the AP-650's decay and sustain may be a little (or, slightly) longer than the AP-620's, but the OP had to return his AP-650 due to the very short decay. I traded in my AP-620 for the same reasons.

The similarities should be clear (as for both digitals) that the overall sustain and decay is not quite sufficient in either model. I would not buy an AP-650, knowing this fact.

No, pv, you've actually stated someone else's observations.

Careful with that sort of thing. You might find yourself with no cred at all.

Note to Kawai James

The other piano that I was seriously considering was a Kawai CN34. The deal breaker here was the lack of competitive bidding by Kawai dealers. (And this is forced from higher up in the company.) I was able to get quotes a little better than the “Buy Now” prices at http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/CNxx4/cn34.html , but not anywhere near what a straight currency conversion plus VAT adjustment would give from a UK dealer.

The CN34 is a good machine, and I would rate it slightly better than a Celviano 650. If the price were only “slightly higher” than that for a Casio 650 (estimated at $1,500 +/-), I would have gone the CN34 route.

DBill - confused how you can rate the AP-650 when you haven't played it yet, or are you going by published spec which on paper looks fantastic...

Re-iterating to anyone interested in the AP-650....Make sure you play it first before handing over your hard earned cash !

Andy

To Andy

I have to use specs, reviews, and video clips for any evaluations that I make as the nearest major dealers for Casio and Kawai are 200 miles away - in different directions. There is a "Best Buy" that has recently shown up as a Casio dealer only 40 miles away, but they don't even advertise a Celviano 620 never mind a 650. Thus there isn't any practical way that I could compare playing them - especially as a side by side comparison.

From what I can see, you are the only one on this thread that has actually played a 650 (vs. a 620), so I do give your opinion more weight. However the clincher (at least for me) for the decay evaluation is PianoManChuck's comparison of a Privia 330 vs. a Privia 350. The Celviano 650 has the same sound engine as the Privia 350 which is different from the 330 (and the Celviano 620).

The Kawai CN34 seems to be a slightly better machine so if I could get it at nearly the same price as a 650, I would go for the CN34.

One other factor to consider is that the piano will go in a large room (25-foot ceiling - open to other rooms on both floors). The 650 has an edge here as it has more powerful speakers. You can add external speakers to either piano, but this would add to the price evaluation.

->DBill and others

If you don't need the fireworks in piano, why not to choose the Roland RP-301?
I think it beats Casio in each aspect - if we talk about piano playing.
And cost less than both of them.

or Kawai KDP-80 if going down with prices

I don't suppose that there's one piano that sounds the best every piece of music. I have a AP620. I agree the decay is short. The competing pianos in the same price class as the AP620 (and now the AP650) all have their own trade-offs.

If you have already bought the AP650 and don't like the decay, but you like the keyboard feel, the features, and maybe the other sounds, you might want to consider midi'ing your piano to a sound source with a piano that is more your liking. I store my iPad on top of my piano. For cabling reasons, I don't always have it hooked up to midi cables, but I can do so in seconds. The quality of iOS music software is improving, and there are some good piano sounds including Garageband's main piano. (The quality of iOS pianos is not up to the best Windows OR MacOS software pianos, however.) You could play your iPad through the piano speakers if you want, but I play mine through a set of 2.1 computer speakers instead.

DBill, thank you for your post.

However, I do not have any involvement in how Kawai America set their prices.

Kind regards,
James
x

Here is a new recording (another longer excerpt) of the Schubert Impromptu, this time at the Kawai EP3, as I have replaced the previous recording (at the CA95 earlier in the thread) with this one:

[17 seconds of silence before playing starts]

https://www.box.com/s/3uhyiz8fa3w1qdpeithm

This, to my ears, is how the melodic line should "sing" as the lowly EP3 (that many here don't think much of) does a great job with its sustain and resonance. The playing is not perfect as it contains a few errors.

Wanted to demonstrate the initial decay attack of the EP3, as I believe it easily outperforms the previous Casio's I owned.

One of the first few retailers offering the Casio Celviano AP 650 for sale is Jim Laabs Music.
http://www.jimlaabsmusic.com/pianos/digitals/celviano-ap650-digital-piano/prod_7704.html

They advertised “Call for Price” so I did. (1-800-657-5125)

Unfortunately Casio called shortly before I did and said they weren’t allowed to sell outside their district, and thus couldn’t give me a price. Thus I don’t know what their price is, but it’s a sign that the 650 will be available at other dealers in the near future.

(If you call, say you live somewhere in Minnesota or Wisconsin. See http://www.jimlaabsmusic.com/about-us/info_1.html and maybe you will be among the first to hear what the 650 is selling for.)

It looks like Jim Laabs Music jumped the gun in advertising the Celviano 650 as they have pulled the ad. (Wouldn’t be surprised if Mike contacted them and read the riot act.)

I saved a Print Screen picture of the ad if anyone is interested. If you want to see the picture, send me a Private Message and I’ll see if I can paste it in a follow-up message.

The Kawai CN34 appears to have features that are more comparable to the (Casio) Celviano AP420/450. It's hard to get pricing information, but it appears to be more in line with the AP620/650. I watched a demo of the CN34 on Youtube, and it certainly seemed to have a longer decay than my AP620. (I have never heard the 650.)

The Roland RP301R may have a strong piano sound, but it has a much lower modesty panel than either the Celvianos or the CN34, so it won't look as nice in the living room.

(...)

Andy's work is ridiculously nice!

The AP 620 and AP 650 have different sound engines, and thus their tone decay times are going to be different. The relatively short decay time on the 620 (and the Privia x30 series) has been noted by multiple other people in other reviews, so it’s been pretty well documented.

It would be nice if we had some hard data comparing the decay rate on various machines. Perhaps someone on this forum can go into a piano store and play a “standard chord” on various digital and acoustic pianos and time the number of seconds that the tone remains audible. Then post the results here. (Better yet, if possible, measure the decay amount during the first second as well the total decay time.)

There is no such thing as a “standard piano” and what is a good decay rate for one person (and the music that they play) is going to be different for someone else. Thus there is no such thing as a “standard decay rate”. If you are going to buy/play a piano, you should do your homework so that you can buy a machine that satisfies your personal preferences. (I’m a retired “computer nerd” so I tend to call them machines instead of pianos.)

I’m still in the process of trying to buy a piano/machine. I also concluded that the Kawai CN34 and Casio Celviano 650 are similar machines. Thus it comes down to price.

Kawai has prices for the CN34 posted here ( http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/CNxx4/cn34.html ), but the quoted $2399 to $2499 prices are more akin to what Kawai would like to have some sucker pay as opposed to a “fair market price”. I was able to get telephone quotes from dealers a couple of hundred under the above. If you can physically walk into a Kawai dealership, you can probably get still lower quotes.

If you calculate a “fair market price” for a Kawai CN34 based on what they are selling for in the UK, then the U.S. price for a CN34 should be about $1,600.

For example:

UK price for a CN34 = 1215 UK Pounds http://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/kawai...ir?cName=pianos-keyboards-digital-pianos

Decrease the above price to take out the 20% UK Value Added Tax
1215 / 1.2 = 1012.5 UK Pounds
https://www.gov.uk/vat/overview (Value added tax = 20%)
https://www.gov.uk/vat/where-you-see-vat “it’s already included in the price”

Convert to U. S. $ = approximately $1,605
http://www.dollars2pounds.com/ (Exchange rate varies continuously)

If Kawai dealers had been willing to sell a CN34 for anywhere near the above price, I would have bought a CN34. However, they weren’t willing, and as a result I will be buying a Celviano 650 as soon as they are available. (Estimated price for a 650 will be around $1500 +/-.)

We need to be clear about the improvements that Casio state they've made to the "decay" on the 650 from the 620 (and I suspect the PX-330 to the PX-350).

The decay that I've had serious issue with is I believe known as the "initial decay" - this is exceptionally different to the (for want of a better word) "overall decay" - ie the time it takes for the sound to be inaudible after playing the note.

As I understand it the "overall decay" is improved on the x50 range.

The "initial" decay has NOT changed. So the problem remains. it dies away too quick.

Fast passages will sound acceptable (perhaps even without this improvement) as the initial decay is perhaps not as relevant.

However - passages where the melody must "sing" and be prolonged are unacceptable. The schubert impromptu is just an example of where this flaw lies. Mikes rendition (despite being performed well) clearly shows this.

Here's another example from my own repetoire...Schuberts Ave Maria. Comments welcomed !

Andy

The
“Better yet, if possible, measure the decay amount during the first second as well the total decay time.”
that I referred to is the same thing that Andy is referring to as “initial decay”.

If someone can take the time to actually measure this “initial decay in volume level”, then we could compare one instrument with another. (I.E. compare the volume decrease from one one-hundredth of second after a note is played to the volume level that remains one second after a note is played.)