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While there are theoretical and intuitive ideas about wear of pinblocks through tuning, I know of pianos that have been tuned a minimum of 4 times a week for 40 years that show no signs of wear other than the difference in feel that evolves in a pinblock over time whether it is tuned once a day or once a year. These often tuned pianos have been tuned by many tuners over the years, some of them using an aggressive flagpoling technique with a lever and still they show no real Ill effect. Intuitively, it would seem that they shouldnt be in such good tuning condition but they are. I cannot deny my perceptions. I have just texted my colleagues who also tune these pianos and the three of them that have replied so far concur.
I can imagine wear taking place if a tuner flagpoles and turns at the same time. A feat that is almost impossible with a T hammer but commonplace these days when the lever is used unsupported by the thumb. Note that I say I could imagine possible damage by tuning that way. I have not seen incontrovertible evidence of it and certainly not In a modern multiply pinblock.
There is sometimes the odd rogue tuning pin hole that produces a looser pin but that is not the result of tuning. Otherwise, wouldn't there be more of them in the same block???
Even then, it is the ravages of time and of too many extreme atmospheric changes that does any of the real pinblock damage that most of us see.
Hi RXD , I suggest it is because concert tuners raise the firmness of the pin (each time the piano is tuned) an occasional flagpole tuner will not be noticed. Pinning is OK , as the tuning sensations, as long as the tuner use an adequate technique. A flagpole tuner need the block to be more firm, and in the end it finally is not (if all tunings are done that way) Flagpole tuning is seen as a beginner defect, in that case.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Now if you have the feeling of the pin you have not understood yet the feeling of the string
But Max try do again
There are still some problem unisons and notes, but I believe Max is improving! Keep going and keep using that hammer. Keep trying to improve with the advice you have been given. Best of luck, Max.
When inserting a muting strip, please get in the habit of depressing and holding down the sustain pedal to lift all dampers off the strings. This is done to protect the bichord and trichord wedges from being pinched and deformed.
I could not see this detail on the video and it is an important habit to have.
Lavender Piano Services Established 1977 Tuning, Concert Maintenance, Rebuilding & Restoration
When pulling it out also while I tend to forget. At last for the double wedged and simple v shaped, if they are horizontally layered as on yamahas, Steinways, .. Then the wire motion can even cut in the felt (I have seen that)
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Now if you have the feeling of the pin you have not understood yet the feeling of the string
But Max try do again
I agree there are better unisons but still more job to do to have them nicer (it takes along time to master unisons so you have now to learn to listen the notes with mutes, only 1 string then 2, then 3,
Many intervals are out of tune I cannot say for sure but you seem to push on the lever to raise that center string, which is too low, you need to TURN really the lever , at that level of correction, as generally, pushing on the lever does not tune - raise notes higher than you do there that to set the string and pin.
You may want to train to listen to notes PLAYED together with one string only for one and one string only for the other, so 2 mutes or a felt ribbon should be the next tool you use.
It is impossible Max to tune good stable unisons by plucking the strings, it is only good for pitch raising (and is OK to listen if you ar eunsure of a string eventually, but on that note you tune would use a mute anc compare both sides of the unison, to hear which side sound the best.
Really, try to use some foam in your ears to lessen the too bright tone, or special "earplugs" then you will hear way better the most important part of the tone.
The partials couple soon, if you pluck you have not enough energy in the string.
Your octaves are all too small (the first one you tune is VERY small) Probably because the tuning pin is not set enough, with that hammer position I believe the pin can turn easily.
If you hold the lever right 13:00- 14:00 or vertical you are OBLIGED to raise more the wire, then there is enough tension in the string to put the pin in place
Last edited by Olek; 01/26/1304:33 PM.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
I agree. Unisons and octaves are key. If they are clean, the ear can forgive a non equal temperament.
For unisons, listen to the beating upper partials. The lower partials will beat slower than the higher ones, so reducing the higher ones, which are faster and easier to hear, improves the whole unison. Try "ghosting" which is (as I know it) pressing the key gently, making no sound. Then staccato whack the octave, octave and fifth, and double octave. If the upper notes are close in frequency to the partials of the lower note, you will hear the beating if the unison is out of tune.
I also agree with Isaac's explanation of hammer turning.
I would like to add: We all know that when we turn the pin, the pin bends and twists, and the string begins to have the differential tensions across the bearing points. The trick is to leave the pin bent and twisted the way you found it, as well as the tension equalized, or unequal slightly in the direction of sharpening (this can be acceptable if it is less than the bearing friction).
Now, when we are finished turning the pin, it will "spring back" and the tensions will change. If only we could get that "spring back" to equalize the tension differential for us, that would produce stability.
Try this: Use Tunelab (http://www.tunelab-world.com/tl97.html) or some other ETD. Mute off a string. Turn the pin (*). Measure the pitch. Whack the key three times, fff. Measure the pitch again.
We are looking for no change in the pitch.
(*)If the pitch changes, try a different angle/approach combination
Possible angles: 9, 12, and 3 o'clock and all in between. Possible approaches: Coming from below (sharpening). Coming from above (flattening). Do not push or pull the handle unless you know what you are doing and why. This is only for ultra fine adjustments, and then the amount of push/pull is very gentle. It's more of a brushing of the handle, a coaxing if you will.)
The most common combinations that produce reasonable stability in most pianos, not all, is:
1) Flattening at 11 o'clock 2) Sharpening at 2 o'clock
(Note: I did see you flattening at 2 o'clock which will definitely not produce a stable pin. As the pin "springs back", it causes the note to go flat.)
Good luck. Keep working at it. Seek out a good tuner. This will save you months, perhaps years in the learning curve.
He is translating the English into Russian. Translate crap into Russian and then take that word and put it back into English. That's a bad word.
BTW, until now, I thought Max actually could write in English. Very resourceful of you Max. (I am right aren't I? I mean, you are using a text translation program, right? I apologize if I am wrong.)
I know many musicians, but amongst them, I don't know a single one who prefers off unisons over clean ones.
I tuned a Yamaha once and the store owner called me back. The music teacher was complaining.
"What did you do to my piano. You have destroyed the tone."
Well, I did some voicing, actually just hammer mating, if I remember correctly. Yamahas are known for having harsh bright tone, but I didn't think I destroyed it! I explained voicing to her. She had no idea what is was.
Then it hit me. I asked her to show me which notes were "dead". Very nice unisons I thought, but I've been here before. I detuned the unisons. "Yes, that is much better. Thank you."
So, does she like a lively unison, or is she just used to it?
BTW, I did hear recently, some jazz being played on a piano with dead on unisons and it did strike me as a bit odd. I wanted to hear some swell and projection, for lack of a better word.
Do I like some swell in my jazz, or am I just used to it? I really don't know.
you are getting a lot of good suggestions from other posters here. I would like to contribute by showing the difference between a well-tuned unison and a unison that is 2 cents off. I recorded my piano tonight, and here are the sound files:
There is a little bit of sizzling partials there, so I checked the single strings. They sounded like this: D4, strings one-by-one
The left string was indeed a bit "busy" in itself. I tweaked the unison aurally, and this is what I came up with: L/R to center string, aurally
Then I detuned the right string +1 cent and the left string -1 cent, giving a unison that is 2 cents wide in its frequency range: Detuning the unison: L -1 cent, R +1 cent
Can you hear how that unison "moans"? It sounds like there's an effect on it, like a chorus or flanger pedal used for guitars.
I tuned them back, and I post that file, too. You can hear how I'm working with the tuning hammer and with the hand hitting the keys. When the strings fall into place, the sound is longer, clearer and more powerful than if the strings do not couple with each other: re-tuning the unison
This is the kind of sound you should be looking for in your unison tuning. Start listening for that long, clear, and calm sound, and you will soon start to find it in your own tunings!
Hope this helps, Patrick
Kudos to you Patrick for making the effort to post your recordings.
Is it just me, or did all those single unisons have false beats? The real demonstration in those recordings is how the cybertuner could not mask the FB but you did a wonderful job by ear.
I know many musicians, but amongst them, I don't know a single one who prefers off unisons over clean ones.
I tuned a Yamaha once and the store owner called me back. The music teacher was complaining.
"What did you do to my piano. You have destroyed the tone."
Well, I did some voicing, actually just hammer mating, if I remember correctly. Yamahas are known for having harsh bright tone, but I didn't think I destroyed it! I explained voicing to her. She had no idea what is was.
Then it hit me. I asked her to show me which notes were "dead". Very nice unisons I thought, but I've been here before. I detuned the unisons. "Yes, that is much better. Thank you."
So, does she like a lively unison, or is she just used to it?
BTW, I did hear recently, some jazz being played on a piano with dead on unisons and it did strike me as a bit odd. I wanted to hear some swell and projection, for lack of a better word.
Do I like some swell in my jazz, or am I just used to it? I really don't know.
I take this question seriously. There is not quite all the fun of the fair when the fairground organ is in tune, the pipes lose some of their skirl, a steel band not quite so exotic.
All tuning departments have stories of sending a young tuner who is getting too cocky to a customer like yours, Mark, so that they have to go back and untuned it.
When I quickly check over lots of practice pianos for tuning, I know I can spot an out of tune unison in a piano that has reasonable tone regulation by running a very rapid chromatic scale. The out of tune unisons have less attack and make a ' black hole' in the ripple of notes.
That might be the reason, some pianists/listeners don't like to hear the attack. They also like the swelling you hear. If a wind or string player habitually played like that, they would be unemployable. The designers of digital keyboards are of questionable taste because their strings voices and brass sounds have either no attack or an amateurish fake attack and are all but unusable.
A skilful pianist can vary the attack in so many different ways. For the unisons to be out of tune takes away their ability to do this. There are tuners on this forum who will take me totask on any statement that refers to a pianists ability to make huge differences to piano tone. They have not heard a fine pianist on a fine piano. The situation simply doesnt exist in the vast majority of places.
Most of the better jazz clubs in London now have first quality pianos that are tuned as regularly as lesser concert hall pianos. Those that don't are obliged to hire in a first class instrument and tune it daily if they want to employ the current jazz stars. The days of having poor condition pianos in jazz venues and making them worse by spilling drinks in them and other abuses are long gone. Most don't drink any more when they're working. Some even have the piano mikes turned off when they encounter a really fine piano in a good room. I know this first hand, I am often the tuner involved. The piano cast off to the back of the stage is often a quite good piano or can be an equally fine make in poor condition.
Last edited by rxd; 01/27/1303:52 AM.
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
It have been said before but dealing with the tone enveloppe have begin to be learned to apprentice tuner by Yamaha...
European tuners dont worry with theory of unison at that point, they tune it, point.
Then possibly because of the type of tone they have, they analyse how to push the enveloppe a bit more than it is necessary in European pianos.
Most of the tuners I learned with are not at all making difference between a tuning with intentional dealing with the attack and a tuning where the attack is just tuned by the high partials job.
As said G Weinreich with his coupled string motion description, the 3 strings cannot beat in phase and are immediately pushed in a waving motion with back and forth motions between coupling (high speed camera show that very well) between 2 of the 3 strings the 3 one being once with one, then the other to finish in a more or less shape vertically polorized (I am surprised this have not been evaluated yet)
So stability wise we can favor that shape , because if not it will install erratically by itself.
But we are in a level of precision where it is unecessary to talk of beats
I regret rxd but there is a confusion between the honky tonk effect and a good stabilisation of the attack in a nice clear shape very soon.
Tuners tend to tune the brightest tone possible which is good only on some pianos . You did tell me you never listen (analyze) somebody else tuning, you probably did not notice then the small differences in unison between tuners.
It is not as easy as the rest of the tuning is modifying the tone. It also is so much near of the ears discrimination level that even when plucking the wire it is not always perceived (but a tuner probably can hear that)
Btw unison can be in high stability with different styles and shape, some being more long lasting than others. At the end of the day that is just theory ... I never try to tune a piano with a beat unless I am asked for a honky tonk or a bar piano .
It is simply a game within the iH of the piano probably
Last edited by Olek; 01/27/1306:04 AM.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Quite so, Isaac. Quite so but we are both ( hopefully) writing about giving the pianist maximum control over the attack and taking out the ' black holes', (as one fine pianist so aptly describes them) by tuning and then voicing.
None of this is helping Max at this stage but I really don't feel like working this morning. I'm going to take my assistant out for breakfast.
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
Of course I don't listen to the work of others unless I have to in the course of my work
Last night, I had 15 mins for a post delivery check over a piano for a party where a famous singer was performing. I knew exactly which apprentice tuned it befor it came out of the basement. it was 90% fine. A quick couple of minor changes to the scale and morph a few too fast RBI's into the general tuning that would pass muster anywhere.
As I have said before, we don't go looking for trouble if a regular tuners work got so quirky that it made things tough for the rest of us, some texts would ensue and heads would roll.
Many years ago, one really good tuner got it into his head it was more 'artistic' to over sharpen the treble. The rest of us spent a few days taking down the last 20 notes of the treble on too many pianos. That tuner was taken off the important work for a while and retrained.
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
"black hole " is excellent ! See we where talking of energy from the start ! Maximum CONTROL on the attack, is slightly different than maximum power for the attack (the attack is the engine the pianist use, it get tuned to some point when partials beats are supressed, but have to be regulated energy wise, so the pianist have the feel of the hammers under his fingers) if we empower the attack to the max we create a black hole also, but it is immediately after it, then the tone dissipates straight and soon. Sort of overpowering, take too much energy immediately . (will stay put for a few hours of playing, no more)
An unison that breaks create the opposite situation ...
Similar thing than you happened there with those "extra rolling basses" , used by one new guy in the pool.
Extra high stretch in the treble is a sort of trap , if you begin to listen too soon in there putting the note at the edge of the envelope, the ear accustomate and the tuner tune all the octaves with so fast beat it is unnoticed, confusing the sympathic resonance of the rest of the piano with the energetical effect of extra fast beating.
I have seen also "pure 5ths" in mefiums, creating so much stretch that the last octave up is to be tuned inverted to sound well (but I also heard that inverted high treble could be used in harpsichord tuning as sort of strech effect, may be when the instrument is poorly sounding ?)
I recognized sometime the tone signature some of us but mostly the younger tuners used a more straightforward tuning with more eveness in 3ds progression (ladder of 3ds based temp) while the ancient where using each a different temperament sequence, hence a different flavor.
As it could be categorized : a 3 ds based or a 5th based tuning. Only in theory they are similar, practically they provide an instrument thst sound more or less "old style"
3ds based tunings are appreciated because they give do much consistency that they are more resistive to time. Probably that the 5th based is more "musical" but it can be noticed that some chords are cleaner , when listened with tuner ears. I like the robustness of good FBI progression but if some 5th ask for something else I will favor the 5th. Rainy day but my back is back so back to work !
Last edited by Olek; 01/27/1306:58 AM.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
