In the course of the past months, I was thinking of buying a digital. Digitals represent a very seductive idea, namely that one day, we will be able to do without all the inconvenience of tuning/maintaining/voicing/paying for those huge monsters of wood and steel, and that one day, the same heavenly singing voices are going to be produced digitally.

I went to two local dealers and tried digitals four times, about one hour per visit. I play pianos since 41 years and I have a pretty good ear. I have played on good pianos in the past, even if the one I have now at home is well past due for the junkyard.

The first time I went, I made the mistake of playing only Bach and Mozart. The digitals sounded very nice, I was particularly impressed by the Kawai CA series.

The second time, I dusted my Mephisto-Waltz - not my favorite music but why not try, and boy, what a difference! The supernatural-expensive Yamaha N2 with the lid open caused a very unpleasant ringing in my ear when I was playing repeated notes in the treble range. In disbelief, I went to play the same passage on acoustic grands, and there was no ringing. So I crossed the N2 mentally, as I could not live with that flaw. But then when I tried the acoustic grands, I felt I crossed a Rubicon.

Then I brough my Gaspard de la Nuit to try on the Kawais at the other dealer and lo and behold, they sounded flat and artificial. I also tried the same piece on Kawai grands and it was a totally different world. Not so much in terms of touch, but in terms of resonance.

So my (unoriginal) conclusion is that digitals are fine if you are a beginner and that you play casual stuff (Alfred, is that you?) that does not push the instrument to its limit, but that the technology is **far** from being there yet. How long will it take - at the slow pace at which products evolve, I don't see them getting there for at least 10 more years, and they will need far more than ridiculous features such as "concert magic" to convince me. For the experimented pianists, especially those playing late classical music, nothing replaces a good acoustic. "Duh", I hear some people say.

Anyways, who are we fooling? Present day digitals are overhyped junk and, judging from this forum, people who buy them seem to replace them by a newer model of junk every couple of years - not a quality signal.

Meh. I thought I could save ten thousands dollars, and now I know that I will never be able to afford that 9-ft Steinway I dream about. So I'll probably rent a decent grand, put up and shut up. And meditate about the impermanence of existence.

Not bad ideas at all.

I've come to think it has more to do with the style you play. Classical is so demanding that the weaknesses of a DP are emphasized very much. For pretty much anything else DP's seem to be fine these days, especially software ones.

That Ravel piece is some pretty darn serious chow... I can't imagine any pianist who can play that up to speed, fairly accomplished, ever being happy on a DP.

For many pro players, digitals exist for only one reason---work/gigging.

If you like the Kawai grands, why not look for a later model, say an RX-2 or 3 used ? Piano Zac, on the PW forums here, just found a lightly used RX2 at considerable savings after trying the Avantgrand route and still feeling dissatisfied.
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2023558/1.html
You'd pay more initially but you wouldn't be *upgrading* every few years and still feel frustrated. In LA, on Craigslist, there are deals galore.

Good luck with it. I feel your pain.

Must admit that ringing sound on top end models would influence me not to buy one.

I`m thinking of going back in time. To get a totr Dated Digital which gives me the sound I have (only better) in a great cabinet, and better action. Hopefully! I`m too old to lug `em around anymore.

Well, it's junk I can live with.

My standards must be pretty ******* low.

Its a case of different strokes for different folks.

Me personally I really wanted an AP, but then discovered the other bells and whistle functions that APs don't and never will have.

Secondly if the DP did not exist pianoworld would probably be 25% the size it is today. The DP is the modern day spinet, affordable for most people.

Also the technology exists today to make a better DP than an AP. The maths just doesn't work out in terms of cost of production vs sale price.

Also if Kawai or Yam were to make a pitch and action perfect DP, then what would they make next year to improve to sell next year.

I never thought of it that way, but it's a valid point. And a lot of people who otherwise wouldn't play DO start on digital and move eventually to APs, which even an AP purist shouldn't gripe about.

Besides utility for gigging, digitals are great for silent practice.

Finally, not all notes we play are the same. Some are in concert, some purely practice; some are Ravel, others Bach, still others show tunes or rock. There is plenty of music that CAN be gotten out digitals very usefully, even if digitals don't lend themselves perfectly to every activity that every pianist might pursue.

I don't consider digital pianos "junk." I consider them useful tools that have a great many valid applications.

exactly, it's unfortunate compromise to space, portability, tuning, neighbors etc etc. Since I've bought my acoustic grand piano (one of the cheapest) I seldom sit to my digitals (one of the more expensive)...

Didn't you try any SuperNatural Rolands? Or even better, the V-Piano, which gives you the closest simulation to an acoustic in terms of response to touch, articulation, tonal nuances, dynamics etc,. because of its modeling technology? Or better still, its big brother, the V-Piano Grand (which has been played by concert pianists around the world in a series of promotional concerts)?

I set out looking for a DP three years ago - prior to which I absolutely refused to touch one. But I realized it had to be a DP or nothing in my situation, because of where I live and neighbor problems. And I managed to find the DP that would satisfy me as an acoustic piano substitute - which was far more than I'd expected to find: the V-Piano. In case you're interested, I used a few classical pieces to audition the DPs (I play almost exclusively classical): Rachmaninoff's big chordal cadenza to his 3rd concerto and his G minor Prelude, Mendelssohn's Rondo capriccioso, Schumann/Liszt's Widmung and Scarlatti's K141 Sonata among them, which covers more or less everything that would show up limitations in a piano - especially its tonal response and dynamics and key action. The V-Piano passed all those tests, especially once I'd worked out how to improve its 'factory' preset sound (by increasing its sustain and tone color, which unfortunately in its factory setting is far too conservative).

And since then, I've learnt Ravel's Gaspard, the Yellow River Concerto, more Rachmaninoff and Chopin pieces, some Scriabin and others - all from scratch, on my V-Piano, and then transferred what I'd practised onto the grands (mainly Fazioli F278 and Yamahas) at the showrooms where I visit occasionally, with no trouble at all.

Why don't you have a look (and play them) for yourself - bring your own headphones for the V-Piano, as the store's set-up is likely to be less than optimal. If you get to try the Grand, even better. But remember to do some customizations first.

+1


I just wish more people had good ears...

I told you, digital pianos are like dildos....

+1 Good analogy. Also, it's so hard to find the real thing that you really like, and is low maintenance.

Only the ones with an soundboard ... CA95, N3, etc.

>now I know that I will never be able to afford that 9-ft Steinway I dream about.

Maybe you can make a deal with someone that has one but wants the latest greatest digital to reduce maintenance

While you're saving your money for that Steinway D (does the price jump about 5% each year [$6,000]?), you may find that the Roland RD700-NX (Studio Grand setting) through headphones is useful as a practice instrument. I agree that the N2 is disappointing when playing classical. It may be as much because it doesn't live up to the hype as anything else. And, with respect to not living up to the hype: Try buying a Steinway. The Roland is the only set of keys I have that exceeded my expectations. I bought the thing for its PHAIII action, thinking I'd use it as a controller. But I RARELY connect a software piano to the Roland. It's more responsive than Ivory and Galaxy, and it sounds better than Pianoteq. As for real APs, give the Hailun 178 a try -- a lot of piano for the money.

Not everybody can have an acoustic in it's living environment, because of space / neighbors to start with. Then a DP is the only option if you want to play the piano (or fake piano - whatever you like) at all. I think nobody in this forum will ever say that a certain DP model is exactly like the real thing, so what's your point ?

Let me just start with some truth here, I will carry on later with more truth, before closing with evidence, and yes, some more truth, with just a dash of opinion thrown in to spice it all up....

I started playing the piano, an acoustic upright, in 1971. I owned a number of pianos, forget how many and played both acoustics and grands in locations ranging from small flats to prison chapels. All good fun.

In 1990, I bought my first digital, a Roland RD300S which, after we got used to each other, I grew to love. I decided to replace in with a Roland RD 700NX in August 2011, again, I am growing to love it and yet I could criticise it from here until Christmas but would still have to replace it with another one should the situation ever arise. I still have an old Schirmer upright.

Right, that's the history, now to the present.....

"Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture "

Actually the real truth is that if digital pianos were such junk no-one would buy one, therefore the basic logic of your argument is flawed, as thousands of digital pianos are sold around the world, presumably, judging from the somewhat supercilious comments that have been made occasionally, to cloth-eared, foolish beginners with no idea what a piano sounds like!


Now apparently it is more difficult to replicate the sound of a grand piano than it would be to perform brain surgery whilst hand-cuffed and on board a rocket ship blasting off Cape Canaveral, this must be the reason why when I press the Concert Grand button on my Roland RD700NX it sounds just like a chain-saw......(er, it sounds like a damned good grand piano, actually)

By the way, I am not the only one doubting the "logic" ( I use the word loosely here) of the argument.

Some other people, who I have the very temerity to suppose, are well qualified to make this choice, have agreed that digitals are in fact, as I have always claimed, "PERFECTLY PASSABLE REPLICATIONS" of acoustics, here is my evidence:

""""USA

Clavinova digital pianos have been acquired by prestigious institutions for use in music education labs through the USA, including:

Oberlin Conservatory
Eastman School of Music
University of Southern California
University of Arizona
Portland State University

CANADA

The First Choice of the Royal Conservatory of Music

UNITED KINGDOM

Clavinova is used extensively in music education throughout the UK, including the following prestigious establishments:

Royal Academy of Music
The Guildhall School of Music and Drama
The Royal Northern College of Music
Birmingham Conservatoire
Cheethams School of Music, Manchester""""

Whole thing,

http://www.classicportland.com/pianos/yamaha-clavinova

Now, can we have some evidence to support the anti-digital claim?

By the way, the "dildo logic" is equally flawed and a fatuous claim and is an attempt to disguise truth from the fiction pedalled by the acoustic brigade.

well, number of sells has nothing to do with it, you have junk music on MTV and it's selling well so I don't see a flowed logic here from OP.

I own an N2 and don't notice any ringing. My Tinnitus must cancel it out.

+1. Number of sales does not equal to quality.

As for the anti-digital claims (or anti-acoustic claims) I don't really understand them. Digitals and acoustics as I see them, are different instruments. There are different players, that play different music styles, with different playing skills, with different tastes, with different places where to put the piano in, with different neighbours, with different wallets... then each one can choose digitals, acoustics, or even both. Having choices is good and there is a place for both, digitals and acoustics.

One likes acoustics? Get one. One like digitals? Get one. One like software pianos instead of built-in sounds on acoustics? Use them. Sampled? Modelled? Uprights? Grands? Hybrids? For me is all about choices.

Regards,
Kurt.-

I don't think anyone will disagree that no digital can replace a genuine, well maintained concert grand for it's touch, character and tonality.

I don't however appreciate your condescension and implication that whoever uses digital must only be a beginner, or casual users, or somehow can't hear the fact that it is "junk".

Although I've fallen out of practice, I have been playing since I was 3.5 and I was training in ARCT Performance diploma prior to stopping. I've played many concert grands and uprights... and I think good quality DPs are at the stage where it is a perfectly acceptable replacement for an acoustic when price, noise , environment or space is a factor. I wouldn't have said this even 5 years ago when I was looking at the models out at that time.

I think the point about digitals being the modern-day spinets is the right one. No digital I've seen is a true high-performance instrument. Professional classical pianists wouldn't practice on your living room upright or a digital because of the level at which they are operating and the demands of their repertoire.

Digitals replace inexpensive uprights in people's homes and do so well. In fact, they are perfect for it with their small size, light weight, and silent play capability--all very valuable in a typical home environment. Great for learning and for regular-level (intermediate and advanced) play. Of course there is variety among digitals as well...some are better than others. Every digital so far is limited relative to a concert grand in terms of action and sound, but so are typical acoustics and especially spinets.

Digitals are also perfect for the gigging musician, but that's kind of a separate topic because the OP doesn't seem to be in that group.

+1

Good point. I suspect there are quite a number of young (would-be or practising) classical concert pianists who only have digitals to practise on at home, but get regular access to acoustics to hone their interpretations for the concert platform.

But what I've definitely noticed is that people who've only ever played (and learnt) on digitals lack the quality of touch and tonal control when they play on acoustics, which may be due to the deficiencies of most DPs in this area. Hanging around piano showrooms and listening to the visiting punters bashing away is often an interesting experience. With acoustics, everyone can hear what everyone else is playing...

Perhaps where the DP really scores is when the pianist is already experienced, and knows how to control textures and bring out melodic strands within complex figuration, and able to use the tonal and dynamic range of the instrument. Such pianists have no difficulty doing the same on digitals, up to the limit of what the digitals allow them. Those still in the early-intermediate stage (when it's no longer just getting around the notes (when any DP with decent weighted keyboard would probably suffice) but also tone production, which requires control of weighting of individual notes within chords and textures, rather than just playing them) may benefit from using an acoustic most, if not all, the time, just so they can easily feel and hear the effects of the way they play, which is not so evident from most DPs.

There goes your credibility. Why don't you just go play your acoustic and leave the commentary alone. Maybe you would be happier if you did not spend any time in the DP forum.

A rather crude analogy based, I'm assuming, on your personal experience with both.......

His point is to stir things up, or perhaps to display the superiority of his piano and himself. Maybe he has some kind of complex, small man or something.

It sure would be great to hear him play.

ad hominem
When you can't win, attack the messenger.