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#2026028 - 02/02/13 08:22 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: JoelW]
argerichfan Offline
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Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8903
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: JoelW
I don't get it... why is the musicality of Chopin's etudes being questioned?

They are NOT being questioned. You are welcome to ignore anyone who feels differently, they do not know what they are talking about. I could just as easily listen to the Opus 10 etudes as well as I could the Opus 28 preludes.

I do not understand the nonsense here.
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#2026052 - 02/02/13 09:22 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
trigalg693 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 662
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think a big difference between the Chopin Etudes and the ones by Liszt or Rachmaninov is that the Chopin Etudes are mostly much shorter.

Thus one cannot really expect them to be as musically developed as a longer work. But, for me, that doesn't make the huge majority of them less significant than the etudes of Rachmaninov or Liszt anymore than one would say the mostly very short Chopin Prelude(quite a few of which could pass as etudes) are minor works.


You know, I was going to give a counterexample, but I realized my counterexample runs 3 minutes -_-
(Rachmaninoff Moment Musical no.4 (op.16))

I guess on top of that, Rachmaninoff/Liszt etudes are much less focused.

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#2026059 - 02/02/13 09:39 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: argerichfan]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: JoelW
I don't get it... why is the musicality of Chopin's etudes being questioned?

They are NOT being questioned. You are welcome to ignore anyone who feels differently, they do not know what they are talking about. I could just as easily listen to the Opus 10 etudes as well as I could the Opus 28 preludes.

I do not understand the nonsense here.
Being arrogant and dismissive is rarely a good way to convince anyone of anything.

I happen to agree that the Chopin Etudes are very good music, but we've already had a few including a conservatory student who feel differently so their musical worth has clearly been questioned and by some sophisticated pianists. These are their opinions.

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#2026063 - 02/02/13 09:46 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4826
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: JoelW
I don't get it... why is the musicality of Chopin's etudes being questioned?

They are NOT being questioned. You are welcome to ignore anyone who feels differently, they do not know what they are talking about. I could just as easily listen to the Opus 10 etudes as well as I could the Opus 28 preludes.

I do not understand the nonsense here.
Being arrogant and dismissive is rarely a good way to convince anyone of anything.

I happen to agree that the Chopin Etudes are very good music, but we've already had a few including a conservatory student who feel differently so their musical worth has clearly been questioned and by some sophisticated pianists. These are their opinions.


Probably only because of their titles... it might create some sort of prejudice. Now, obviously the op. 10 etudes are fairly early works by the young Chopin and are obviously lacking the mature complexity of his later compositions, but they're still marvelous gems -- rivaling his other compositions of the same time period. The op. 25, however, is an absolutely extraordinary collection of music and I don't see how anyone could question these colorful pieces' musicality. If they weren't entitled 'etudes' I'd bet people with such criticisms would think differently.

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#2026093 - 02/02/13 11:21 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Online   content
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Originally Posted By: JoelW
I don't get it... why is the musicality of Chopin's etudes being questioned? They're all lovely little gems of music! (especially op. 25)

I couldn't disagree more!
It should have been "especially Op. 10." grin

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#2026098 - 02/02/13 11:30 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
trigalg693 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 662
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Being arrogant and dismissive is rarely a good way to convince anyone of anything.

I happen to agree that the Chopin Etudes are very good music, but we've already had a few including a conservatory student who feel differently so their musical worth has clearly been questioned and by some sophisticated pianists. These are their opinions.


Thanks.

If I'm allowed to bring argumentum ad verecundiam into this, may I add that I believe most teachers (people with doctorates from prestigious conservatories) would agree with the "Chopin etudes do not stand very well as just music" camp.

Might I add that I agree that some of the etudes are good music that I enjoy listening to, but I like them for a similar reason to why I like some of Alkan's even more simplistic etudes; They are charming, but they don't move me the way the 4th Ballade does. If I didn't like how they sounded, I wouldn't have worked on op.10 no.4 for 1 year, or op.25 no.6 for 5 hours a day for a full month, but I don't really want to go to a concert and listen to someone play them either (hence, I did not pay 40 dollars to go see Lang Lang play a bunch of Chopin etudes last year).


Edited by trigalg693 (02/02/13 11:34 PM)

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#2026100 - 02/02/13 11:33 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4826
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: JoelW
I don't get it... why is the musicality of Chopin's etudes being questioned? They're all lovely little gems of music! (especially op. 25)

I couldn't disagree more!
It should have been "especially Op. 10." grin


You like op. 10 more?

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#2026104 - 02/02/13 11:47 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Online   content
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Originally Posted By: JoelW
You like op. 10 more?

Yes, quite a bit.
But look -- I love them both.

Food for thought: Is it possible really to love two etude opuses at the same time? ha
(Or, if you prefer, etude opera.) grin

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#2026105 - 02/02/13 11:50 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4826
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: JoelW
You like op. 10 more?

Yes, quite a bit.
But look -- I love them both.

Food for thought: Is it possible really to love two etude opuses at the same time? ha
(Or, if you prefer, etude opera.) grin


I guess I just see op. 25 as being so much more colorful.

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#2026128 - 02/03/13 12:57 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: JoelW]
outo Offline
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Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 719
Loc: Finland
IMO it's impossible to talk about musical worth objectively, there's always the element of personal taste involved. So I cannot be offended or even surprised that some of you think the etudes don't have much musical worth.

Anyway, I listen to the etudes in two ways: The whole cycle, which almost kind of melts into one larger work, a display of varied musical ideas and techniques. Then I may listen to individual ones. Not all of them are very interesting to me individually, so I would agree that their individual musical worth varies a lot. Have to admit I don't care for the revolutionary that much, but I never seem to get tired of hearing a good rendition of 10-2, maybe not so much because of deep musical worth, but the genious addictiveness of it grin

I think my enjoyment is actually increased because they are short. I often prefer shorter works of music. Maybe partly because I am very easily bored. I't so much better having to wish something lasted longer than wishing it ended already grin

I am not a fan of either Liszt or Rach, but I enjoy some of their compositions. I don't like everything written by old Fred either. I judge every piece of music individually, but some styles and forms appeal to me more than others.


Edited by outo (02/03/13 01:13 AM)

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#2026140 - 02/03/13 01:47 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: outo]
Mark_C Online   content
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Originally Posted By: outo
....Have to admit I don't care for the revolutionary that much....

I think there's a high chance that's totally because of its familiarity. It's a remarkable and striking piece of music -- musically.

As per what you said, of course that's subjective and personal. But I'm telling you. grin
In view of what your tastes and preferences seem to be, it's hard for me to imagine it wouldn't be that way for you.

The remarkableness of the music depends on an excellent performance, including good attention to dynamics -- which, as has been said, doesn't always happen, even in performances by top professionals.

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#2026142 - 02/03/13 01:54 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
Back to the nature of cheating in etudes, I'm currently cheating the last bit of Liszt's "Un Sospiro". The right hand arpeggios are a bit ridiculous near the end, and I just cross over with my left hand...because hand crossing is one of the technical elements of this piece, and with only a week to learn it before performing it, putting in the extra practice isn't worth it.
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#2026144 - 02/03/13 01:55 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Thrill Science Offline
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Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 520
Loc: California
I don't know how anyone could not like the Revolutionary!

I even like it on the Organ! (With the LH on the pedal!)



Edited by Thrill Science (02/03/13 01:56 AM)
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#2026176 - 02/03/13 04:29 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Kuanpiano]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5265
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
Back to the nature of cheating in etudes, I'm currently cheating the last bit of Liszt's "Un Sospiro". The right hand arpeggios are a bit ridiculous near the end, and I just cross over with my left hand...because hand crossing is one of the technical elements of this piece, and with only a week to learn it before performing it, putting in the extra practice isn't worth it.


I do think that we probably obsess too much about playing music the way it's written rather than in the way that puts the music across better, or that suits our technique better, or that makes more sense to us. Most professional concert pianists have no such qualms, as I've witnessed often in live concerts.

Probably the most common is the redistribution of hands - just watch Mikhail Pletnev, who possesses one of the most transcendental techniques around, playing Chopin's last Prelude from Op.28: http://youtu.be/weNs4NuhJ0g
_________________________
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#2026182 - 02/03/13 04:58 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
outo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 719
Loc: Finland
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: outo
....Have to admit I don't care for the revolutionary that much....

I think there's a high chance that's totally because of its familiarity. It's a remarkable and striking piece of music -- musically.

As per what you said, of course that's subjective and personal. But I'm telling you. grin
In view of what your tastes and preferences seem to be, it's hard for me to imagine it wouldn't be that way for you.



It's true that too many bad/mediocre performances can totally ruin a piece for me...The revolutionary has it's moments, but I think it's just not so much to my musical taste as a whole. I'd say my favorites in addition to 10-2 are 10-6, 10-9, 10-10, 25-1, 25-07, 25-10, 25-12. But sometimes you hear a performance of the others that totally hits home grin

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#2026184 - 02/03/13 05:06 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: trigalg693]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: trigalg693
(hence, I did not pay 40 dollars to go see Lang Lang play a bunch of Chopin etudes last year).


Nor should you pay 40 dollars to go see LL play a bunch of anything... ever! At least you used the correct wording with "see", rather than "hear".
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"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

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#2026186 - 02/03/13 05:14 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: stores]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4826
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: trigalg693
(hence, I did not pay 40 dollars to go see Lang Lang play a bunch of Chopin etudes last year).


Nor should you pay 40 dollars to go see LL play a bunch of anything... ever! At least you used the correct wording with "see", rather than "hear".


Oh shut up with this crap.

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#2026201 - 02/03/13 06:37 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6167
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
I like the Chopin etudes, but they strike me as pop tunes with a technical problem thrown on top. Hard to learn, easy to memorize.

Totally false!!!
(Although, the melody of the F major 10/8 does seem to stolen from an old Beef-A-Roni commercial.) ha



Do you mean they are easy to learn and hard to memorize?
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#2026357 - 02/03/13 02:19 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: argerichfan]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6167
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Damon

... and I don't dislike the etudes. But to compare them musically to Chopin's more thoughtful pieces is an exercise in worship, IMO.

Well I took note of the 'IMO', but I totally disagree. Your use of the word 'worship' is utterly insulting, I have no problem rating the etudes amongst the finest of Chopin's works.

Sorry mate, did you ever study music at uni?


I suppose this is some British thing to leave out articles, so I assume you mean any college or university as opposed to some place called uni? If so, yes.
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#2026364 - 02/03/13 02:25 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19798
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Damon
I suppose this is some British thing to leave out articles....

Yeah. smile
As near as I can tell, it's done with just a few nouns, "university" and "hospital" being the ones I've noticed.

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#2026383 - 02/03/13 03:34 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5943
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
I suppose this is some British thing to leave out articles....

Yeah. smile
As near as I can tell, it's done with just a few nouns, "university" and "hospital" being the ones I've noticed.
But don't you say "go to school" in the US?
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#2026385 - 02/03/13 03:42 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: currawong]
Mark_C Online   content
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: currawong
But don't you say "go to school" in the US?

Good point! And that gets into an aspect of this that I thought of saying in the other post but didn't want to take up more space. smile

The thing is, those words in British apparently have a slightly different additional connotation -- as is the case for the word "school" in the U.S. When we say "go to school," the word has a slightly different, broader meaning than when we say go to a school.

The words "university" and "hospital" don't have such an additional broader meaning in the U.S, and that's why it sounds a little strange for us to hear them without any article. I'm guessing that in the U.K., they do.

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#2026395 - 02/03/13 04:01 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5943
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
The thing is, those words in British apparently have a slightly different additional connotation -- as is the case for the word "school" in the U.S. When we say "go to school," the word has a slightly different, broader meaning than when we say go to a school.
Yes, I'd noticed that you use "school" for just about every educational institution. Here we'd never say "school starts again this week" about college, or university, or anything other than, well, school, the school you go to from the age of 5-18 (approximately).
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
The words "university" and "hospital" don't have such an additional broader meaning in the U.S, and that's why it sounds a little strange for us to hear them without any article.
But "college" does have this broader meaning, like the way we use "university", yes?
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#2026403 - 02/03/13 04:24 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: currawong]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19798
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: currawong
But "college" does have this broader meaning, like the way we use "university", yes?

Yes, you're right!! That didn't occur to me.
Nice job.
You have a good ear for these things! smile

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#2026404 - 02/03/13 04:26 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: currawong]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5265
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
The thing is, those words in British apparently have a slightly different additional connotation -- as is the case for the word "school" in the U.S. When we say "go to school," the word has a slightly different, broader meaning than when we say go to a school.
Yes, I'd noticed that you use "school" for just about every educational institution. Here we'd never say "school starts again this week" about college, or university, or anything other than, well, school, the school you go to from the age of 5-18 (approximately).
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
The words "university" and "hospital" don't have such an additional broader meaning in the U.S, and that's why it sounds a little strange for us to hear them without any article.
But "college" does have this broader meaning, like the way we use "university", yes?


I used to think it odd that when chatting to Americans of well beyond school age, they say they go to school, until I realized they meant a higher establishment like university.

Luckily, most other ex-British colonies wink still use 'school' and 'university' in a manner understandable to us. Somehow, saying that you go to "Oxford School" doesn't sound as impressive as going to Oxford University. I wonder if "Harvard School" is just as good as Harvard University.....
_________________________
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#2026406 - 02/03/13 04:29 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: bennevis]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19798
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: bennevis
....I wonder if "Harvard School" is just as good as Harvard University.....

A while back Bill Maher did a what-if 1799 version of his old Politically Incorrect show. One of the panelists said "Harvard School." It sounded pretty funny.

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#2026412 - 02/03/13 04:48 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2662
The thread has somewhat departed from the original question.

And, I feel, I have to repeat my previous point:

That is, the opening C-c octave of the op. 10 no.1 etude is musically very important, therefore it has to be played as an octave.

I don't care for the other *cheats* the OP might consider, but I feel responsible at least to point out that dropping the top C in the first octave is totally a wrong *cheat*.

Sorry for interrupting the hijack.
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#2026455 - 02/03/13 06:15 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Hakki]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19798
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Hakki
....the opening C-c octave of the op. 10 no.1 etude is musically very important, therefore it has to be played as an octave.

Agree completely -- and I hadn't noticed anyone saying they don't!
(I went back and do see it in the OP, loud and clear.)

It has to be the octave.
Has to be. smile

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#2026494 - 02/03/13 07:12 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8903
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
I suppose this is some British thing to leave out articles....

Yeah. smile
As near as I can tell, it's done with just a few nouns, "university" and "hospital" being the ones I've noticed.

Sorry, I'm still learning American usage, sometimes this can be awkward. Yet when I talk to my mother in London, sometimes SHE can't figure out my Catch 22.
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#2026500 - 02/03/13 07:35 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Hakki]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
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Originally Posted By: Hakki

That is, the opening C-c octave of the op. 10 no.1 etude is musically very important, therefore it has to be played as an octave.
The OP didn't suggest otherwise.

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