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#2026501 - 02/03/13 07:38 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19786
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Hakki

That is, the opening C-c octave of the op. 10 no.1 etude is musically very important, therefore it has to be played as an octave.
The OP didn't suggest otherwise.

Actually he did! (I missed it too.)

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#2026508 - 02/03/13 07:53 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8890
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

I happen to agree that the Chopin Etudes are very good music, but we've already had a few including a conservatory student who feel differently so their musical worth has clearly been questioned and by some sophisticated pianists. These are their opinions.

Well of course they are, but in all my musical years -pre-univerity, university, post-university- (and I am admittedly younger than you are)- I have never, EVER heard any experienced musician who has not the highest regard for the Chopin etudes, and I talked to many in London. Most recently Randolph Hokanson, who is still going strong in Seattle at 97!

After a fabulous concert featuring the Mozart K310 (which he thinks the greatest), I asked him about the worth of the Chopin etudes (because I have been wrestling with the issue), he just smiled and nodded. My friend Rob was there too, and can back me up.

Arrogant of me, perhaps, impatience is not one of my better qualities, terribly un-Christian. But I look at what Chopin has accomplished, you might as well tell me that the 2nd act of 'Walkure' is not one of the tightest spans of time that Wagner ever conceived.

Surprised that I need to defend such incredible music.
_________________________
Jason

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#2026509 - 02/03/13 08:01 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: argerichfan]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3797
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

I happen to agree that the Chopin Etudes are very good music, but we've already had a few including a conservatory student who feel differently so their musical worth has clearly been questioned and by some sophisticated pianists. These are their opinions.

Well of course they are, but in all my musical years -pre-univerity, university, post-university- (and I am admittedly younger than you are)- I have never, EVER heard any experienced musician who has not the highest regard for the Chopin etudes, and I talked to many in London. Most recently Randolph Hokanson, who is still going strong in Seattle at 97!

After a fabulous concert featuring the Mozart K310 (which he thinks the greatest), I asked him about the worth of the Chopin etudes (because I have been wrestling with the issue), he just smiled and nodded. My friend Rob was there too, and can back me up.

Arrogant of me, perhaps, impatience is not one of my better qualities, terribly un-Christian. But I look at what Chopin has accomplished, you might as well tell me that the 2nd act of 'Walkure' is not one of the tightest spans of time that Wagner ever conceived.

Surprised that I need to defend such incredible music.


I'm a brother-in-arms with you in addition to your namesake here. I never thought the pure musical worth of Chopin's etudes was more suspect than other pillars of the literature.

-J
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

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#2026511 - 02/03/13 08:07 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Hakki

That is, the opening C-c octave of the op. 10 no.1 etude is musically very important, therefore it has to be played as an octave.
The OP didn't suggest otherwise.

Actually he did! (I missed it too.)
In his verbal description he leaves it out but in his adjusted score he shows the octave being played with the LH. So who knows what he does. Most of the discussion assumed he played the octave with the LH and then the following C with the LH instead of the notated RH.

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#2026514 - 02/03/13 08:14 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19786
Loc: New York
....and that's just what I had assumed too, and I thought all we were talking about was playing the first RH note with the LH. I guess it was easy to miss what he said in the latter part of the post -- anyway we did grin and it seems a lot of others did too.

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#2026527 - 02/03/13 08:53 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Thrill Science Offline
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Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 514
Loc: California
I just sat down and cheated my way through it a few more times to see what I actually do.

I do play the 8ve at the beginning, but take the first RH note with the LH thumb. It's already there, after all.

But at that other cheat I notated, I actually leave out a note. I hope I don't lose my piano license!
_________________________
Robert Swirsky
Thrill Science, Inc.

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#2026536 - 02/03/13 09:16 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19786
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
I do play the 8ve at the beginning, but take the first RH note with the LH thumb. It's already there, after all.

Cool -- our misunderstanding was right. ha

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#2026538 - 02/03/13 09:17 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19786
Loc: New York
(Pretty neat, eh? Our instincts told us what not to see.) grin

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#2026557 - 02/03/13 10:21 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: beet31425]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8890
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: beet31425

I'm a brother-in-arms with you in addition to your namesake here. I never thought the pure musical worth of Chopin's etudes was more suspect than other pillars of the literature.

thumb
_________________________
Jason

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#2026598 - 02/03/13 11:51 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: pianoloverus]
Damon Offline
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Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6149
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Hakki

That is, the opening C-c octave of the op. 10 no.1 etude is musically very important, therefore it has to be played as an octave.
The OP didn't suggest otherwise.


I think he did, but even so, I agree with Hakki and others that it needs to be an octave.


Edited by Damon (02/03/13 11:54 PM)
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#2026606 - 02/04/13 12:02 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19786
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Damon
I think he did....

He did but he didn't mean it. Those of us who (mis)understood otherwise based on an overall impression were right. ha

(See his last post.)

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#2026703 - 02/04/13 04:47 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
I don't understand how it helps to take that "c" with the left thumb. It's not as though it's a difficult thing. If I'm going to actually "cheat", then make it a worthwhile thing that will actually help me.

There are certainly many other sets of etudes from various composers and we may (or may not) prefer these to Opp. 10 and 25, but anyone questioning the worth of these sets simply doesn't know what they are talking about. Period.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2026721 - 02/04/13 06:32 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: stores]
trigalg693 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 656
Originally Posted By: stores

There are certainly many other sets of etudes from various composers and we may (or may not) prefer these to Opp. 10 and 25, but anyone questioning the worth of these sets simply doesn't know what they are talking about. Period.


They're valuable exercises just as Czerny op.299 is, no one is questioning that.

Maybe it's time you open your eyes to the world outside your own that doesn't consider most of these programmable pieces. There are a lot of people who would refuse to go to a concert to listen to a big name artist play a bunch of Chopin etudes rather than something more interesting which they would otherwise like to go see. I might not know what I'm talking about, but I'd like to think that people who graduated from Julliard and Moscow Conservatory and such would know what they're talking about.


Edited by trigalg693 (02/04/13 06:39 AM)

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#2026752 - 02/04/13 08:34 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: trigalg693]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2147
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: trigalg693
Originally Posted By: stores

There are certainly many other sets of etudes from various composers and we may (or may not) prefer these to Opp. 10 and 25, but anyone questioning the worth of these sets simply doesn't know what they are talking about. Period.


They're valuable exercises just as Czerny op.299 is, no one is questioning that.

Maybe it's time you open your eyes to the world outside your own that doesn't consider most of these programmable pieces. There are a lot of people who would refuse to go to a concert to listen to a big name artist play a bunch of Chopin etudes rather than something more interesting which they would otherwise like to go see. I might not know what I'm talking about, but I'd like to think that people who graduated from Julliard and Moscow Conservatory and such would know what they're talking about.

Just cause you may not pay to listen to them performed doesn't reduce their musical value. I, and many others, wouldn't pay to listen to somebody play the Tchaikovsky piano concerto or the Schumann, because they've lost their freshness to me. Their place in music remains unchanged though.
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#2026787 - 02/04/13 09:31 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5155
One of the best all-Chopin concerts I've attended in recent years was when Louis Lortie performed both sets of Etudes Op.10 & 25, plus the Trois nouvelles études which made up the novelty in his program.

It was not just his unflagging stamina, but his musicianship that kept everyone in the packed hall engrossed.

Personally, I prefer such a program to one made up of miscellaneous pieces like Waltzes, Scherzi, Ballades, Nocturnes, Mazurkas, Impromptus, Polonaises.....
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2026795 - 02/04/13 09:38 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Kuanpiano]
trigalg693 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 656
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano

Just cause you may not pay to listen to them performed doesn't reduce their musical value. I, and many others, wouldn't pay to listen to somebody play the Tchaikovsky piano concerto or the Schumann, because they've lost their freshness to me. Their place in music remains unchanged though.


Thanks for ignoring the point.

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#2026816 - 02/04/13 10:12 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: trigalg693]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: trigalg693
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano

Just cause you may not pay to listen to them performed doesn't reduce their musical value. I, and many others, wouldn't pay to listen to somebody play the Tchaikovsky piano concerto or the Schumann, because they've lost their freshness to me. Their place in music remains unchanged though.


Thanks for ignoring the point.



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#2026829 - 02/04/13 10:55 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Nobody is questioning the worth of the etudes. Saying that one of the sonatas has more MUSICAL substance isn't questioning the worth of the etudes. At all. You are all misunderstanding this.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2026845 - 02/04/13 11:38 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Thrill Science Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 514
Loc: California
BTW: I never even thought about leaving out the middle notes in the LH chords of op 10/2. I tried that, and it's never sounded better! So far, the Chopin Police haven't busted down my door.
_________________________
Robert Swirsky
Thrill Science, Inc.

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#2026867 - 02/04/13 12:09 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
trigalg693 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 656
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
BTW: I never even thought about leaving out the middle notes in the LH chords of op 10/2. I tried that, and it's never sounded better! So far, the Chopin Police haven't busted down my door.


Back on topic, WHAT IS THIS?

I actually tried it the other day, but I thought it sounded off, unless by sounded better you mean that because it was easier to play. Still have mad respect for people like Trifonov who can play that etude at insane speeds (his op.25 no.6 makes me depressed every time too). I swear that guy has done gene therapy for his muscles to modify them or something, my thumb can't move as fast as his even if I'm not playing any other notes.


Edited by trigalg693 (02/04/13 12:10 PM)

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#2027018 - 02/04/13 04:57 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: trigalg693]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2147
Loc: Canada
Edit: not going to bother...*


Edited by Kuanpiano (02/04/13 05:16 PM)
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#2027062 - 02/04/13 06:24 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: bennevis]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: bennevis
One of the best all-Chopin concerts I've attended in recent years was when Louis Lortie performed both sets of Etudes Op.10 & 25, plus the Trois nouvelles études


I've heard him with the same programme. He's brilliant and I agree that it was one of the best all Chopin recitals I've yet heard.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2027081 - 02/04/13 06:55 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: New York
Have not heard Lortie live yet but I have enjoyed his recordings. I have also enjoyed Trifonov's Chopin. In fact I am seeing / listening to him tomorrow in an interesting program mix:: The (Chopin) Preludes, Scriabin's second sonata and the Liszt sonata!

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#2027206 - 02/05/13 12:15 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: bennevis]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5500
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: bennevis
One of the best all-Chopin concerts I've attended in recent years was when Louis Lortie performed both sets of Etudes Op.10 & 25, plus the Trois nouvelles études which made up the novelty in his program.

Yes, that was one mind-blowing program.

I was joking with my colleague that Louis Lortie probably plays through that entire set every morning just to warm up.
_________________________
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#2027887 - 02/06/13 05:53 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: AZNpiano]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7862
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: bennevis
One of the best all-Chopin concerts I've attended in recent years was when Louis Lortie performed both sets of Etudes Op.10 & 25, plus the Trois nouvelles études which made up the novelty in his program.

Yes, that was one mind-blowing program.

I was joking with my colleague that Louis Lortie probably plays through that entire set every morning just to warm up.


He does seem to have it at the ready all the time - wasn't there a story a year or two ago where he filled in for someone with it at more or less a moment's notice?

I've heard him do it, too, and while it was an astonishing stunt (and AFAIAC, it is a stunt more than anything else), it solidified my feeling that the Chopin etudes played as sets do not make for good recital programming. And all three sets are just that much more dreadful. I remember thinking afterwards that, in spite of how excellent Lortie is, I spent way too much time thinking about when one etude would be over, and how he would play the next. I can't think of anyone I'd willingly go hear do that program again.

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#2027903 - 02/06/13 06:28 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Thrill Science]
trigalg693 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 656
^^ +1

There are 2 etudes that I don't mind hearing, and those are op.25 no.6 and op.25 no.11, but everything else I don't really want to listen to. I used to like listening to op.10 no.4 since I thought it was impressive, but since I can play that one pretty fast now (well, if I revive it) it no longer awes me when someone pulls it off at a very quick tempo.

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#2027905 - 02/06/13 06:31 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: trigalg693]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: trigalg693
^^ +1

There are 2 etudes that I don't mind hearing, and those are op.25 no.6 and op.25 no.11, but everything else I don't really want to listen to. I used to like listening to op.10 no.4 since I thought it was impressive, but since I can play that one pretty fast now (well, if I revive it) it no longer awes me when someone pulls it off at a very quick tempo.


What about op. 25-3? Such a cute little piece! Trifinov plays it best.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLZ4WJiDldU#t=4m45s

Actually his 2, 3, 4 and 5 are all very good (these happen to be my favorite of the etudes)

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#2027912 - 02/06/13 06:54 AM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: JoelW]
trigalg693 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 656
Originally Posted By: JoelW

What about op. 25-3? Such a cute little piece! Trifinov plays it best.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLZ4WJiDldU#t=4m45s

Actually his 2, 3, 4 and 5 are all very good (these happen to be my favorite of the etudes)


Now that you mention it, I do like the main theme of 25-4 quite a bit, and same with the middle section of 25-5.

However I'd rather listen to Hamelin etude no.1 (triple etude) smile

EDIT: now that I go listen to Kissin play 10-4, I think I like it again? shocked


Edited by trigalg693 (02/06/13 07:40 AM)

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#2028377 - 02/06/13 09:01 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: Mark_C]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Vid
How do you manage that? Can you post the fingering (if you dare)?

OK, you dragged it out of me. ha

All I need to do is say the first few notes, and you could figure out the rest. First of all I do what Thrill said grin and then on the next 4 notes (G-C-E-C) the RH does 1-2-4-2, then shifts up to play the next 4 notes the same way, and so on. Sometimes it's 1-3-5-3 or 1-2-5-2 or whatever, depending on how the notes lay out. And where you can't take the first RH note of a figure with the LH, you use 2 and then jump the thumb to the next note. (And BTW maybe sometimes you actually have to 'stretch' as much as an octave, don't remember for sure, glad to say I haven't done this stupid trick in years.)

It's a genuine felony. grin


LOL - And you're cheating on the easy parts! What's the cheat on the A arpeggios and such? That's where a cheat could be useful smile
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#2028381 - 02/06/13 09:06 PM Re: How do *you* cheat? (Chopin Etudes) [Re: jazzwee]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
Online content
6000 Post Club Member Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6666
Loc: So. California

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