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Originally Posted by Vasilievich
Originally Posted by Keymar Rob
I had the same problem. I solved it with beta blockers.

A few friends have suggested this to me (among other drugs and substances!), but as I understand, this still requires a prescription and can have some nasty side effects. I've always been a very independent, self-driven person—I like to figure out and solve things for myself (hence why I'm skittish about seeing a psychiatrist, as well) so I am loath to the idea of taking medication. This might just be something I can't tackle without help, though.
Good for you! And well done on resisting the 'easy way out'! smile

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Originally Posted by beet31425
(3) a much more supportive teaching environment.

Please do really consider the effects of (3) on your performance anxiety. We're all different, and this might not apply to Pogorelich e.g., but it might really apply to you.

I actually do agree that at best this certainly doesn't help, and at worst has actually precipitated the entire problem itself. I believe there is something you can learn from everyone, however not all relationships are positive ones, and that certainly seems to be the case here. The day I was removed from my own lesson and essentially told I wasn't "good enough" to even justify hearing my performance of a piece of music that I knew I could play—I actually went to the other piano faculty member the next day after giving myself some time to "cool down" and asked point blank if I could change teachers, only to find that my teacher had gotten to him first and complained about me, and thus I was denied from changing studios due to political reasons. At that point I was so upset that I was ready to drop out of the program entirely and try to transfer to a school somewhere else. But being in my final semester, that seems perhaps foolish. It would also look and sound impulsive on a transcript or if I had to ever explain it to any one. Thus I decided a sensible course of action for the time being is to stick it out these last few months, then I can take some time off and sort this out, and hopefully find a better teacher. I do still have to make it through this final term, though, which is a daunting task given the current state of things. Three months never seemed so long.

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Originally Posted by Vasilievich
Originally Posted by Keymar Rob
I had the same problem. I solved it with beta blockers.

A few friends have suggested this to me (among other drugs and substances!), but as I understand, this still requires a prescription and can have some nasty side effects. I've always been a very independent, self-driven person—I like to figure out and solve things for myself (hence why I'm skittish about seeing a psychiatrist, as well) so I am loath to the idea of taking medication. This might just be something I can't tackle without help, though.


Beta-blockers are routinely used in hypertension (though not so much these days - calcium channel blockers and ACE-Is are preferred) and for angina and heart failure - and among performers to reduce the symptoms of nerves. They don't actually stop you feeling nervous, but just reduce (or even stop) the shaking, sweating etc that go with nerves. As long as you're not asthmatic, side-effects are remarkably few. They slow the heart down, so will reduce exercise tolerance. But playing the piano isn't like running 400m on the track. Whether you want to try them is up to you, but most doctors will be quite willing to prescribe them for anxiety symptoms, for which they're licensed.


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Originally Posted by Vasilievich
I've always been a very independent, self-driven person—I like to figure out and solve things for myself (hence why I'm skittish about seeing a psychiatrist, as well)


You might be under a misapprehension about what therapy is. It need not be pharmaceutical in nature (although that is an option). Perhaps you should try a psychologist first, rather than a psychiatrist. Among the things counselling can offer you:

- to learn coping strategies.
- to get an objective view of things you can't be objective about.
- to work through issues that you have stalled on or avoided, but which are related to your current predicament.

What it won't do is:
- Do the work for you: you still have to confront whatever is bothering you.
- It's not a magic bullet, it's only as effective as your willingness to confront and work through things. You get out what you put in.

I suspect you need all of the things mentioned above. It generally takes some time to find the right therapist and to work through things, but it will no doubt be part of the solution if you want to conquer this problem. The fact that you seem quite mystified by your performance anxiety suggests you need greater insight into the problem. Don't be a "self-sufficient" hero - get some assistance! If you could solve it on your own, you would have by now.

I sincerely wish you the best in your quest.


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From your initial post, I see you're approaching the end of grad school with your final recital coming up in a few months. I know from years of experience that perfectionism can be a terribly debilitating prison to find oneself in, and one which is very difficult to escape from.

I wonder about the extent to which you've become overwhelmed by an understandable desire to deliver a flawless performance at this recital rather than focusing on the simple joy of making music, both for your own enjoyment and for the enjoyment of others. Do you sense that your confidence as a performer might return once graduate school is behind you?


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This may be something you've already tried, but in case you haven't, it's something that has been surprisingly useful for me.

I write down the things that I want to be true of myself, in first-person, present tense. If this sounds lame, bear with me. My high school cross country coach taught me this, and it's a very common technique among distance runners, for whatever that's worth. So I write things down, like, "I play my best under pressure," and "I am a natural performer." I write them 5 or 10 times at a time, one right after the other, at least once a day.

It's hard to describe the effect, but it slowly changes your "gut sense" about yourself.

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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Vasilievich
Originally Posted by Keymar Rob
I had the same problem. I solved it with beta blockers.

A few friends have suggested this to me (among other drugs and substances!), but as I understand, this still requires a prescription and can have some nasty side effects. I've always been a very independent, self-driven person—I like to figure out and solve things for myself (hence why I'm skittish about seeing a psychiatrist, as well) so I am loath to the idea of taking medication. This might just be something I can't tackle without help, though.


Beta-blockers are routinely used in hypertension (though not so much these days - calcium channel blockers and ACE-Is are preferred) and for angina and heart failure - and among performers to reduce the symptoms of nerves. They don't actually stop you feeling nervous, but just reduce (or even stop) the shaking, sweating etc that go with nerves. As long as you're not asthmatic, side-effects are remarkably few. They slow the heart down, so will reduce exercise tolerance. But playing the piano isn't like running 400m on the track. Whether you want to try them is up to you, but most doctors will be quite willing to prescribe them for anxiety symptoms, for which they're licensed.


Another supporter of beta blockers here. My experiences were quite similar to yours (though perhaps not quite so severe): shakey fingers, memory slips, dramatically reduced reading ability (when performing from music), despite not being "nervous" before beginning, or experiencing any such symptoms in other high-pressure settings, like public speaking. I'm not into pharmaceutical solutions generally - otherwise I take no drugs except for antibiotics when I have an infection. However, beta blockers are magical for me. They allow me to see, hear, and think clearly when performing. And I experience 0 side effects from them (except of course that I can't go off and work out like a maniac right after a performance, because they temporarily reduce your heart rate and blood pressure).

I remember after a particularly bad performance filled with memory slips, someone suggested that I should seek psychological counseling. From my perspective, this seemed ridiculous and inappropriate. It seemed clear to me that the issue was physiological, and a physiological solution in the form of beta blockers seems to have solved the issue. This is not to say that your situation might not benefit from psychological assistance, but given that you would ideally be giving your graduation recital in 4 months, it seems reasonable to find a solution that will get you through this part of your life quickly. After you're out of this unhappy situation you've become stuck in at school, you'll have plenty of time (and hopefully a little more money) to deal with any psychological issues you might want to tackle with professional help.

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Typically the dose of beta blockers when used for anxiety is 1/10th the dose used for hypertension or angina. Usually 10mg of propranolol is all that is needed. The usual dose for cardiovascular reasons is 100mg. Side effects should be pretty minimal with 10mg. Four months is not a lot of time to get you hands around this problem, but definitely a prescription is the only way to go. Don't accept any medications from any "friends". See a lisenced therapist and take it from there.


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You have my sympathies. I always got the shakes, so I always tried to break the ice with one of my 'war horses.' We pianists, unfortunately, all have the same goal: perfection. Of course we can't attain our goal; we need to accept this and realize that close is good enough and concentrate on making the best possible music we can. I understand your predicament-the clock is ticking on your performance career. With only four months left, I tend to agree that maybe you could use some temporary pharmaceutical help, then address your problem later. Hopefully, Mark will provide you some professional guidance. It always helped me to have someone important in my life down front where I could see, and focus in them. Best wishes...

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Have you performed chamber music under less-stress environments? I find playing with partners much less stressful than having to pull together a solo performance. In addition, playing music at events where you aren't the centre of attention is good practice to relax, because there's not real pressure.

I have the same problems as you in terms of performing for an audience, though I do sometimes look back and listen to old recordings, to find it actually wasn't as bad as I made it out to be.

Best of luck!


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Originally Posted by Vasilievich
The best way to describe how it feels is as if I were in a car approaching a hilly road: I feel my gears start to lock up as I approach a passage and I ultimately stall, sputter, stop and have to restart or just push to somewhere else and start from there.


It sounds like you are driving with the breaks on.

I went through a very similar experience when I was in the conservatory. In my case, I was simply over-worked, always exhausted, increasingly anxious about my abilities, my future, etc. In one word: unhappy. I do not want to project my experience on to you, but perhaps your situation is a bit similar?

Chopin was absolutely horrified and angry when students over-practiced, advising them to limit it too about two hours a day, three at most.

If the birds are not happy, they do not sing. That applies to all of us. If we are not happy, everything begins to fall apart. I seriously discourage medications as a solution. They merely mask the problem and delay a solution. Find someone you can talk to about the things you really don't want to talk about in public (and a qualified counselor could do that, although you might want to 'shop around' to find the right one). I found that helped me immensely in the past.

Maybe you have to barrel through to get your degree. If not, I would suggest taking off for a semester, but if that is not an option, find a sympathetic ear in the mean time. You need someone on your side you can confide in. I don't know how anyone gets through college without a nervous breakdown since it seems designed to achieve that end.

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Hmm. Gee, that's too bad.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

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I'm not the judgmental type, and I almost never give anyone advice about how to live, but in this case I'll make an exception and state the obvious: you're practicing too much. This may or may not have anything to do with your performance anxiety, but if you've been consistently putting in 6-9 hrs/day for two or more years, that's just bad living, and you shouldn't be surprised to develop some unexplainable problems.

As for the anxiety, I had a similar difficulty at roughly the same time in my life, my second and last year of grad school. My problems weren't nearly as actue as yours, but I remember that performance stopped being something that I looked forward to, and instead became something I got very nervious and anxious about, and preferred at some level to avoid. My problem (and I'm not implying that your problem is the same) was that I imagined that the stakes of performance had been raised. In grad school, I felt that I had made a commitment to the life of a pianist, and my sense of self-worth came to depend on how well I thought I was playing on any given day. This was my identity, and so the next performance was going to reveal a lot -- to me and to everyone else -- about my value as a person, about my propsects for success, status, security, love, happiness, etc. This was difficult stuff. Maybe some of it applies to you, maybe not. Looking back, though, I was wrong about evrything. The stakes were not high at all.

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You have to give yourself permission to make mistakes. They are going to happen. If you need to practice anything, practice making mistakes and faking your way past them.


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This may or may not have anything to do with your performance anxiety, but if you've been consistently putting in 6-9 hrs/day for two or more years, that's just bad living, and you shouldn't be surprised to develop some unexplainable problems.


Quote
Chopin was absolutely horrified and angry when students over-practiced, advising them to limit it too about two hours a day, three at most.


Yes it is some long, long days at the piano. I work as graduate assistant accompanying students, and am responsible for learning about an hours worth of different music (and in the case of the current semester, the reduction accompaniment for an hour-long opera as well) on top of my hour long solo program. With that much material to cover, two hours (or even three or four) just isn't enough, especially at the start of the semester when I have to learn 20 pieces at once to have ready for rehearsals the next week. Burnout is definitely an issue.

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Hello and I am Sandra M and I had a wonderful piano teacher who told me not to focus on myself at all when performing. She told me when performing to say to myself," The is a job now and my job is to perform this selection of this composer to the best of my ability." That takes the focus off you and onto the composer. Good luck and it works for me and hope it helps you. Think with logic and not emotion is what she told me too. Also if you imagine yourself performing and how calm you are as you go onto the stage and how you remain calm as you sit down and perform etc and teacher taught me this one but the other one works for me.

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I don't think gutting it out is helpful. Sometimes it really is physical and if that is taken care of you can focus on the performance not the performer.

Another thing that helps me is to tape my works with the intention of sharing it with family or friends or whomever. I find that I get all of the same symptoms and can battle them there without an audience. It also helps to hear yourself objectively. I always think I'm playing at a much higher level than reality.


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Vasilievich. First you deserve a lot of credit for posting in detail about what your working through. You've generated a lot of discussion and there's quite a bit that many will find helpful.

One thing that might be really helpful is the practice of mindfulness, which a form of meditation that's a very important part of Buddhism. The basic idea is the practitioner develops skill in non-judgementally watching thoughts go by. A mindful approach to anxiety might be to embrace it as something that's natural and in some situations even helpful - instead of looking to suppress it or disperse it or dispel it. The idea is the practitioner watches and experiences and learns to be curious and kind, and again, non-judgemental - about what's running through the mind.

Here's an introduction to mindfulness by someone in the US who's been a very influential advocate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nwwKbM_vJc

You could also look up mindfulness at Amazon - there are a million books about it. The British medical establishment has embraced mindfulness as a very effective approach to a wide range of things. I can tell you from own experience it's helped my playing and my approach to the piano immensely in the short time I've been working with it.

You might google mindfulness and the name of the area you're in. My guess is you'll find many people and places where you can get an introduction to the practice. My limited experience is a teacher or a professional or an experienced practitioner who really has practiced it and knows what it feels like, rather than someone who got a certificate in it for seminar or an intensive weekend of work or simply as a credential, is the best person from whom to study it.

Hope this helps ...

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I use mindfulness to help control stress (I have an incurable stress disorder.) I'm not on medications, I'm back to work, learning to play piano, occasionally going out to watch live musicians etc.. Before that I was locked in my house (sometimes for 8-9 month long stretches.) I was introduced to it by my therapist and it's the singular thing that's gotten me to this point.

A really good book on it is "The Issue At Hand." It's not a for retail book but you can google it and write to the community to get a copy.

I don't recommend using medication to help with anxiety or stress. Learning what's causing it, good coping skills and some healthy understanding and acceptance of yourself will last you a lifetime to manage through issues described by the OP. Medication lasts only as long as the dose stays in your system and can have side effects. Only downside to learning a new way of doing things is it takes time and work!

Best of luck to the OP! I hope you manage to find a path to anxiety free playing.


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Originally Posted by Vasilievich
I can't kick the self doubt


Skydive. Try boxing. Risk rejection so much you stop caring. Take a break from everything related to who you are and what you do now.

Why force society's approval? It is only your own approval you really seek.

Challenge yourself away from the piano, get perspective, the answer will arrive.


Only in men's imagination does every truth find an effective and undeniable existence. Imagination, not invention, is the supreme master of art as of life. -Józef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski
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