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#2025716 - 02/02/13 03:25 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: tinman1943]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1292
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: tinman1943
But doing the analysis in terms of actual intervals (concurrent and sequential)
expressed as "just" frequency ratios (such as 2:3 for a "fifth") might lead to an actual understanding of why the music works.


Integer frequency ratios are a natural consequence of the physics of vibrating strings, air columns, metal bars on a glockenspiel, etc. The physics and math may make an interesting appendix to the book for those who can follow that stuff. But it doesn't do much to illuminate why we like ii - V - I chords in that order.

At this point, I'll refrain from a very long tangent on overtones, equal and other temperaments, the circle of fifths, and all that.... (Except maybe to remark that only the first two overtones really matter, 2:1 for the octave, and 3:1 which is an octave and a fifth. Going up and down octaves and fifths you can put the whole circle together from that.)
_________________________
-- J.S.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

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#2025830 - 02/02/13 10:42 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2323
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: John Sprung
At this point, I'll refrain from a very long tangent on overtones, equal and other temperaments, the circle of fifths, and all that....(Except maybe to remark that only the first two overtones really matter, 2:1 for the octave, and 3:1 which is an octave and a fifth. Going up and down octaves and fifths you can put the whole circle together from that.)

No, you can't - and it's not my style to refrain from long tangents... smile

Using the 3:2 ratio on A = 110Hz you get to A = 14272.1 hz approx.
(E=165, B=247.5, F# = 371.25 etc.)

Going up the octaves you get (via 220, 440, 880, 1760, 3520, 7040) to 14080 - not 14272.1

That's why we had to develop mean, well, and equal temperaments. Most pianos are now tuned to a stretched equal temperament to compensate for the way our ears work but that's a subject for another time.

The octave was divided into twelve equal tones with each frequency being a multiple of the twelfth root of 2 (1.059463)

We lost the pure fifths, though they are very close (off by 0.11%) and we created a very dissonant interval at the seventh (off by almost 3%, nearly 30 time worse).

Originally Posted By: tinman1943
But it relates to an interesting point: why does the 'leading tone" lead?
Because it's so dissonant! It wants to resolve to consonance. The nearest point of resolution is the semitone above.

If you watch a pair of flashing blue lights on an ambulance, for example, they go in and out of synch. You can see that one just needs to increase a little or decrease a little to get back in synch. The ear does this with sound waves.

Play a major scale and observe the tension that develops as it almost propels you to get to the tonic. It establishes the tonic centre. Try not singing the final note of Lili Marleen, a classic 7-8 resolution.
_________________________
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#2025836 - 02/02/13 10:49 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3160
Loc: Maine
7-8 resolution: using the 7th note of the scale going to the 8th note of the scale. E.g. B to C in the key of C major, or F# to G in the key of G major, etc.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2025967 - 02/02/13 04:43 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
Valencia Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 248
Hi Everyone, It's been a busy week wrt to other realms of life and so I'm only now getting to some of the latest in this thread.

Thanks keystring for the suggestion of going through the chords for major and minor on all the keys, and pianostudent88 for the notes about the perfect and diminished fifths. I went through and found the chords. One thing i'm wondering is how do you know when to describe the chord in terms of sharps or flats? I think this will become clearer once I learn to recognize all the key signatures.

i went through and tried to go from the diminished fifth to the tonic chords. so the diminished fifth is always part of a 7th chord...and the root of that chord is always the fifth note of the key that the tonic is in? i made sense of it at the piano, but now sitting away from the piano, i can't quite remember what i did. anyway while I was at the piano, i realized how they fit together. But again i wasn't sure how to name some of the chords I found because I wasn't sure whether to describe them in terms of flats or sharps.


and thanks johnsprung for explaining the 7ths in white christmas, that makes sense!!

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#2026190 - 02/03/13 05:41 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11645
Loc: Canada
I haven't quite understand the question about describing chords in terms of sharps or flats. When you are considering whether a cord is major or minor, you are simply going by the intervals. Example: in root position, a major chord has a major 3rd (4 semitones) from root to third, and a perfect 5th (7 semitones) from root to 5th. This is the same regardless of how a chord is notated.

Example (try on piano and observe your intervals):

CEG - count all your piano keys, both white and black
DF#A - as you scoot over 4 piano keys, you'll land on F#.
FAC
F# A# C# - three black keys, remembering that the # brings the notes to the right (F to F#, A to A#, C to C#).

Gb Bb Db - the same black keys, but this time you've moved from G to Gb to the left; from B to Bb, from D to Db, to find those three notes.
-------------------
Your major chord will always have the 3rd being 4 semitones over. So for example from C to E, you move from C to C#, C# to D, D to D#, D# to E - those are 4 piano keys.

How about finding some on your own, starting with piano keys.

Find these major chords on your own:

Example:
Ab C__ E___
If you go 4 piano keys from Ab what kind of a C do you land on? It should be C. If you go 7 piano keys from Ab what kind of E do you land on? You should land on the black key to the left of E, which makes it Eb.
So the answer is: Ab C Eb is the Ab major chord.

E G__ B___
A C__ E___
Db F__ A___

Can you get this one:
B D__ F__

I just invented this exercise following your question, so please let me know if it works or if it's confusing.

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#2026229 - 02/03/13 08:54 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2323
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Velencia, you might be interested in a little chart Greener has put together. It's a ribbon of fifths, based upon an opened out circle of fifths.

Major chords are formed from the letter on the top row; the fifth is the box to its right and the third is the box below the fifth.

Minor chords are formed from the letter in the middle row; the fifth is again the box to its right but the third is the box above the tonic rather than below the dominant.

Major chords:
| 1 | 5 |
|---|---|
| - | 3 |

Minor chords:
| 3 |
|---|---|
| 1 | 5 |

The minor seventh (note) is two squares to the left. That makes a minor seventh chord with a letter from the middle row and a dominant seventh chord, or plain seventh, with a letter from the top row. The note for a major seventh is a knight's move away, down 2, left 1.

There are other uses for the grid. You might become familiar with the middle of it from usage but I still refer to the extremities while analysing pieces in remote keys.
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#2026407 - 02/03/13 04:32 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11645
Loc: Canada
That chart helps people find at a glance the functional chords in each key so that they can instantly get answers to analysis questions. They don't have to understand what a IV chord is, or how to find one. Valencia's question was on a very basic level, involving major chords and how they relate to accidentals and key signatures. I don't know if the exercise I suggested will work, but if it does I think it will give this understanding. Will using a chart give that understanding?

Actually, I studied that chart. Maybe it is handy for some people to quickly see what the Dominant (V) and Subdominant (IV) chord is by looking left and right, but is it meant to aid understanding of basic theory? Can you get the nature of a major chord, and why the A major chord has a sharped note in the middle, through this chart?

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#2026430 - 02/03/13 05:26 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: keystring]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2323
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: keystring
Valencia's question was on a very basic level, involving major chords and how they relate to accidentals and key signatures...Can you get the nature of a major chord, and why the A major chord has a sharped note in the middle, through this chart?
No, that's not why I posted it.

Originally Posted By: Valencia
But again i wasn't sure how to name some of the chords I found because I wasn't sure whether to describe them in terms of flats or sharps.
Having found the chord I thought the chart might help clarify whether the notes in it are sharps or flats.

It won't build understanding on its own but it might help by seeing the patterns and relationships that lead to it and that it leads to. When I first saw this chart, or a subset of it, it led to an 'aha' moment when so many things fell into place.

I was no longer searching in the dark for lots of little things not knowing where I was headed. Seeing this made everything finite and achievable. There are many paths to understanding. Few of us all tread the same one.
_________________________
Richard

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#2026448 - 02/03/13 06:06 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11645
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
No, that's not why I posted it.

As I thought. That gives an idea of usage.

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#2026450 - 02/03/13 06:08 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11645
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
When I first saw this chart, or a subset of it, it led to an 'aha' moment when so many things fell into place.

I was no longer searching in the dark for lots of little things not knowing where I was headed. Seeing this made everything finite and achievable. There are many paths to understanding. Few of us all tread the same one.

At this stage, charts or the circle of fifths serve as a summary or picture of things I've discovered in stages. It's like after a journey you look at a map and get the big picture. I see what you're saying.

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#2026687 - 02/04/13 04:06 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: zrtf90]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1292
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Originally Posted By: John Sprung
At this point, I'll refrain from a very long tangent on overtones, equal and other temperaments, the circle of fifths, and all that....(Except maybe to remark that only the first two overtones really matter, 2:1 for the octave, and 3:1 which is an octave and a fifth. Going up and down octaves and fifths you can put the whole circle together from that.)

No, you can't - and it's not my style to refrain from long tangents... smile

Using the 3:2 ratio on A = 110Hz you get to A = 14272.1 hz approx.
(E=165, B=247.5, F# = 371.25 etc.)

Going up the octaves you get (via 220, 440, 880, 1760, 3520, 7040) to 14080 - not 14272.1

That's why we had to develop mean, well, and equal temperaments. Most pianos are now tuned to a stretched equal temperament to compensate for the way our ears work but that's a subject for another time.

The octave was divided into twelve equal tones with each frequency being a multiple of the twelfth root of 2 (1.059463)

We lost the pure fifths, though they are very close (off by 0.11%) and we created a very dissonant interval at the seventh (off by almost 3%, nearly 30 time worse).


Well, OK. I didn't go off on a long enough tangent. But still, trying to keep it short:

The octave is divided into twelve equal tones, and also into 1200 cents, each being the 1200th root of two. The JND for successive (not simultaneous, that gives you beats) tones for human hearing is about 6 cents. The tweak from pure 4ths and 5ths to equally tempered is about 2 cents. So, we accept that. Higher order overtones that aren't multiples of powers of 2 and 3 turn out never to land within 6 cents of a note of the equally tempered scale.

Looking at the first few overtones:

2:1 and 3:1 are the foundation of our scale. 4:1 is two octaves. 6:1 is an octave above 3:1 8:1 is three octaves. 9:1 is (3x3):1, etc.

We need to look at 5:1, 7:1, (10:1 is 2x5:1) 11:1, etc. I did the math for all of them once, out to about 25:1. It turns out that none of them land within a JND.

Piano tuners -- those who do it by ear -- set up a temperament by going around the circle of 5ths and 4ths, narrowing the 5ths and widening the 4ths by about 2 cents, by counting beats. It's all based on the pure first overtone (octave) and the slightly modified second overtone.

The point I was trying to make is that none of the higher order overtones have anything to do with why we have the twelve tone octave.

The other point is that while the math may be interesting, it really doesn't much help us understand which chords to use, or what leading tones are....
_________________________
-- J.S.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

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#2026699 - 02/04/13 04:35 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: JohnSprung]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1243
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: JohnSprung


The other point is that while the math may be interesting, it really doesn't much help us understand which chords to use, or what leading tones are....


Quite. The name 'leading note' (or tone, or whatever) is no more than a name given to the 7th note in the diatonic major scale because it leads, in the most obvious and scale-orientated way, to the tonic which is pre-eminent. But it has no magical leading or inclining properties of its own other than those which arise out of its context within, and membership of, the scale.

IOW, if we are played the first 7 notes of the scale we are very likely to expect the 8th note out of sheer habituation but the leading note doesn't lead there irresistibly in the broader world of non-scalar music.

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#2026802 - 02/04/13 09:53 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3160
Loc: Maine
I'm still thinking about Valencia's question about the names to give chords (and perhaps the notes in the chords as well). Some answers have been given already. I want to try an answer as well. To set the stage, I want to talk about intervals first.

I want to talk about intervals because I want to be able to say: a major triad is a major third and a perfect fifth above the root. A dominant 7 chord (e.g. C7: CEGBb) adds a minor seventh, while a major 7 chord (e.g. Cmaj7: CEGB) adds a major seventh. A dominant 7 chord resolves to the chord whose root is a fifth below. E.g C7 resolves to F. That information implicitly contains all (or almost all) the needed information about when to choose sharps or flats.

The key about intervals is that there is sound, and there is the names (or notation on the staff) that we use for that sound. Naming intervals has to do not only with sound, but also with the names, or staff notation, that we use for that sound.

Major thirds

Play a note, and the note 4 half-steps higher. Play them together, and also one after the other. That sound (the same as the first two notes of "Oh When the Saints") is the same sound whatever we call the notes. For example, start on C. The sound is the same whether we call the two notes CE or CFb or B#E or B#Fb or B#D## (to think of successively more unlikely things that we might call it!). For another example, start on F#. The sound is the same whether we call the two notes F#A# or F#Bb or GbA# or GbBb or GbCbb or E##A#, etc. (I'm having fun running through all the crazy names we could give a note...)

But when we give that sound of "four half steps" an interval name and call it a major third, that implies a particular way of notating it. In particular, a major third is notated on two neighbouring line notes, or two neighbouring space notes. For ilustrations of thirds, see p. 9 of Jason Sifford's guide to intervals Interval, Schminterval.

So in our first example starting on C, the note a major third up is called and notated E -- not D##, not Fb. If we were to call the first note B#, then the note a major third up would be called some type of D: D## to be exact. Take out a piece of staff paper (or draw five lines to be a staff) and draw these, to see what's going on.

Notice that this matches up with what keystring said earlier in the thread: an interval of a third means the third letter over, starting from the first letter. For example, C, D, E. Or B#, some type of C, some type of D (D## to be exact).

Look at the second example, from the first of the group of three black keys to the last of that group. Suppose we call the first note F#. Draw this on your staff paper. Let's say we're doing this on the first space of the treble clef. The note a third higher needs to be notated on the next space of the treble clef: the second space. So it's a type of A. We can see on the keyboard that it's the black key to the right of A natural, hence A#.

Suppose instead we call that first note Gb. Draw this on your staff paper. Let's say we're doing this on the second line of the treble clef. The note a third higher needs to be notated on the next line of the treble clef: the third line. So it's a type of B. We can see on the keyboard that it's the black key to the left of B natural, hence Bb.

Minor thirds

The same thing is true of minor thirds: they are notated on two neigbouring lines, or two neighbouring spaces. This matches up with the rule for thirds (of any type), that they be the third letter. Also they are three half-steps. For example, counting off letters C 1, D 2, Eb 3 gives that CEb is a third. What kind of third? Check the number of three half-steps from C to Eb: C to Db, 1. Db to D, 2. D to Eb, 3. So CEb is a minor third.

So by just a quick glance at the staff you can detect thirds: two neighbouring lines, or two neighbouring spaces. Then you have to either check the sound, or count the half-steps, or use other remembering devices, to know what kind of third it is.

Perfect fifths

Similarly, there is a pattern on the staff for fifths (of any type, perfect or otherwise). They are either two lines with a line in between, or two spaces with a space in between. See p. 3 of the aforementioned Interval, Schminterval. To be a perfect fifth, there must be 7 half-steps from the first note to the second note.

Suppose we start on B, on the middle line of the treble clef. That means the note a perfect fifth higher must be on the top line of the treble clef, hence a type of F. Checking half-steps, we find that it must be F#. Notice that this matches up counting letters: the letter for a fifth must be the fifth letter over from the starting letter. E.g. B, a type of C, a type of D, a type of E, F#. So a perfect fifth starting on B is notated as BF# -- not BGb.

Diminished fifths

Diminished fifths are also a type of fifth. They are 6 half-steps: one half-step smaller than a perfect fifth. Being a type of fifth, they are also notated on two lines with a line in between, or two spaces with a space in between. For example the interval BF is a diminished fifth.

Major and minor sevenths

A seventh is notated... well, ugh, I can't eyeball sevenths easily. It's notated on the line or space below where the octave would be notated. (Thinks about it a bit). This turns out that sevenths are notated either on two lines with two lines in between, or on two spaces with two spaces in between.

A major seventh is 11 half-steps; a minor seventh is 10 half-steps. But double-ugh, I hate counting half-steps, so I remember that a major seventh is a half-step down from an octave, and a minor seventh is a whole-step down from an octave.

So a major seventh above C is B, and a minor seventh above C is Bb. Note that the letter for a seventh is the seventh letter over (for example C D E F G A B, B is the seventh letter from C). So, for example, the note a major seventh above G is called F#, not Gb.

Remember what I said about sound? The sound is exactly the same whether we call it GF# or GGb. But when we start naming it as a major seventh, we are implying a particular choice of note name (and notation): GF#.

See p.7 of Interval, Schminterval.

I hate counting

Now for a secret: I hate counting half-steps. My limit for patience with counting half-steps is about 2 half-steps. I've just described for sevenths how I avoid counting 10 or 11 half-steps, and just back down 2 half-steps or 1 half-step from the octave instead.

Here are some other tricks that I use to avoid counting half-steps.

For major thirds, I remember the major triads, and a major third is always the first two notes of a major triad in root position.

For minor thirds, I remember the major thirds, and a minor third is a half-step smaller than that. I could remember the minor triads instead: a minor third is always the first two notes of a minor triad in root position. I don't happen to do it that way, but you might find that helpful.

For perfect fifths, I could remember them as the outside of either a major or minor triad, but actually I just have these memorized. (For a long time I used a mnemonic BEADGCF (pronounced beed-guh-cuf), which gives descending fifths, or ascending fifths when read backwards. This is a mental quirk of mine that this works for me: easily reading a mnemonic backwards in my head. This may not work for everyone.) If I'd known about the "two lines with a line in between, or two spaces with a space in between" when I was learning these, I could have visualized them on the staff instead of using the mnemonic.

For diminished fifths, I remember the perfect fifths, and a diminished fifth is always a half-step smaller than that. For example GDb. I remember "GD is a perfect fifth, so GDb must be a diminished fifth."

For major and minor sevenths, as mentioned, I count them back one or two half-steps back from the octave.

I have some other ways of finding intervals also, involving keys and inverted intervals, but I'll talk about those later, since it involves more material than we need yet and I don't want to overload the information (as if this post isn't perhaps too much information already).

Other intervals

There are other intervals smaller than an octave: seconds, fourths, and sixths. You can read about them in Interval, Schminterval. I'll post about them at some other time; we don't need them yet.

When we start to talk about extended chords (chords bigger than a sevenths), we get into extended intervals like ninths, elevenths, thirteenths (and there are tenths, twelfths, etc.) I'll talk about those at some later time, when we start to really need those chords.
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#2027127 - 02/04/13 09:02 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1292
Loc: Reseda, California
OK, here's something that some of you may find helpful, particularly beginners reading lead sheets.

Instead of doing all that dreary counting of half steps, I've borrowed the old idea of the slide rule to make a handy way of finding which keys to press. What you do is print out all these PDF's, then cut or fold the keyboard picture as indicated. Put it on top of any of the others with the tick mark for the root you want lined up with the "R", and the other tick marks are the tones of the chord you want. Since it's just a stack of paper, it's fairly easy to use at the piano, along with the paper sheet music.

Granted, this isn't too convenient for analysis, since you have to then go from the keyboard image to the letter names. But I had it handy....



http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Chords-1.pdf

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Chords-2.pdf

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Chords-3.pdf

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Chords-4.pdf

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Chords-5.pdf

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Keyboard.pdf

Edit: Here's an explanation on how to use it:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/KeyChord.pdf


Edited by JohnSprung (02/05/13 06:38 PM)
_________________________
-- J.S.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

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#2027199 - 02/05/13 12:06 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11645
Loc: Canada
Is this going to work where you have two adjacent white keys that are a semitone apart (BC, EF)?

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#2027250 - 02/05/13 02:24 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Beginners Forum
Just a bit of advice from the sidelines ...
the “analysis” approach would suggest the poster hopes to “gain a march”
(with the help of others) in understanding the bewildering jumble of keyboard notes which confront the befuddled beginner.

However the OP shoots himself in the foot by saying
“it's not so important to be able to play the pieces we analyse” ...
The truth is that hands on the keyboard is the critical catalyst to understanding the music.

Slow progress starting with the basics should be the watchword ... playing a favourite piece (however elementary) and then memorizing same to afford a pleasant rendition, is the way to go.

Here’s a picture of of the keyboard score to “Happy Birthday” to get you under way ...
What can we learn from the image?
Feeling = with enthusiasm
f = loud (as against soft)
3/4 = waltz time (or three-quarter time)
There are two staves ... upper “treble” and lower “bass”
There are 8 measures with words relating to the notes sounded
Notes with a dot are extended in length by a half
The black notes are called quarter notes (in this case)
The open notes are called ‘half” notes (twice the length of 1/4 notes)
Two notes joined vertically form chords (played simultaneously)
and all this info in a single image.

Now to play ... it is sometimes easier to play the two hands separately at first ...
So D ...D.E ...D...G....F........
....Happy Birthday To You
Once the treble can be played by the RH ... try the bass with the LH ...
Now the tricky bit ... BOTH HANDS ... and singing the words.

Hoping the suggestions are of help ... what’s next? Skies the limit!
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/happybirthday.jpg

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#2027251 - 02/05/13 02:27 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: JohnSprung]
dire tonic Offline
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Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1243
Loc: uk south
I don't get it.

e.g. Rm shows the middle note skewed to the left. That's ok for Cm but what about Am?

Maybe I'm missing something?

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#2027254 - 02/05/13 02:37 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
btb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Patty Hill and her sister Mildred wrote the song Good Morning to All, which they sang to children every morning (Mildred wrote the tune; Patty wrote the original lyrics). The lyrics were as follows:

Good morning to you,
Good morning to you,
Good morning, dear children,
Good morning to all.

The words were later changed to the world-famous
Happy Birthday to You,

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#2027256 - 02/05/13 02:43 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: btb]
dire tonic Offline
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Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1243
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: btb
The truth is that hands on the keyboard is the critical catalyst to understanding the music.


What about those who can play well by ear?


Come to that, what is meant by the term 'understand' in music?




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#2027259 - 02/05/13 03:17 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: dire tonic]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11645
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
I don't get it.

e.g. Rm shows the middle note skewed to the left. That's ok for Cm but what about Am?

Maybe I'm missing something?


If it were measured out on a string (instrument), it would work, played as broken chords up the string. The piano has two places with adjacent white keys and no black key in the middle. In those areas the interval distances are not the same. The "number of piano keys" stays constant.


Edited by keystring (02/05/13 03:18 AM)

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#2027261 - 02/05/13 03:25 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: keystring]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1243
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: keystring
If it were measured out on a string (instrument), it would work, played as broken chords up the string. The piano has two places with adjacent white keys and no black key in the middle. In those areas the interval distances are not the same. The "number of piano keys" stays constant.


The time for a piano octave with 6 white keys and 6 black is long overdue.

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#2027364 - 02/05/13 10:39 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: dire tonic]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11645
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: dire tonic

The time for a piano octave with 6 white keys and 6 black is long overdue.

It's already been done. Maybe somebody can find the picture. laugh

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#2027370 - 02/05/13 10:57 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: keystring]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1243
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: keystring

It's already been done. Maybe somebody can find the picture. laugh


I'd also like to see the pictures of a pianist trying to cope.

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#2027380 - 02/05/13 11:16 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
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Posts: 11645
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There are factors such as orienting at the keyboard and the fact that the present shape is well suited to the shape of the human hand. The important fact at present is that the physical distance in inches or centimeters for intervals is not equal throughout the keyboard because twice we have adjacent white keys spelling out a half step / semitone. The distance in terms of number of piano keys is constant, however.

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#2027426 - 02/05/13 12:43 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
What a cockeyed idea from dire tonic ...
“The time for a piano octave with 6 white keys and 6 black is long overdue.”

.The alternate black notes in twos and threes provides a tactile feel to allow the pianist to keep eyes on the score

The chappie sipping gin is obviously an amateur ...
only those who have mastered the tactile feel to guide the hands ... progress favourably.

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#2027469 - 02/05/13 01:53 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

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Posts: 11645
Loc: Canada
Recognition of irony is often a lost art, btb.

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#2027629 - 02/05/13 06:43 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: dire tonic]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1292
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
I don't get it.

e.g. Rm shows the middle note skewed to the left. That's ok for Cm but what about Am?

Maybe I'm missing something?



I've added an explanation PDF to the original post #2027127.

The idea is that the tick marks above the keyboard image (the fallboard edge of it) are equally spaced, and indicate all the keys on the keyboard. The tick marks on the chord diagrams are supposed to line up with the ones on the keyboard picture, when you put the keyboard picture on top of them. Of course, they all have to be printed out at the same scale.
_________________________
-- J.S.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

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#2027747 - 02/05/13 10:32 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11645
Loc: Canada
The distance between intervals on the PIANO are not equally spaced, John. DE and BC are the same distance apart as FG, GA, and CD, but the latter comprise a whole tone while the former comprise a semitone, because of the black key between them.

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#2027828 - 02/06/13 02:14 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: keystring]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1292
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: keystring
The distance between intervals on the PIANO are not equally spaced, John. DE and BC are the same distance apart as FG, GA, and CD, but the latter comprise a whole tone while the former comprise a semitone, because of the black key between them.


Yes, that's right.

But looking at the keys where they meet the fallboard, the blacks and the narrow part of the whites are reasonably close in width, and each step there is a semitone. So, equally spaced tick marks near there indicate the keys on my keyboard picture, each step from one tick mark to the next is a semitone.

Lining those tick marks up with the ones on the chord diagrams shows which piano keys are used in the chord. You just have to follow by eye to the wide end of the whites.

The idea is that all this gets printed out on paper, then the keyboard picture with its tick marks gets laid on top of the chord diagrams, and lined up with the root you want.



Edited by JohnSprung (02/06/13 02:20 AM)
_________________________
-- J.S.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

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#2027830 - 02/06/13 02:17 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11645
Loc: Canada
Have you found that this leads to having a sense of intervals and chords eventually, as well as what the notes are?

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