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I'm not discussing the final cadence but a final cadence (as opposed to an imperfect or interrupted cadence).

Edit: The tonic key is established with the first major or minor key harmony. That key will stay established until the key is changed and confirmed with a final cadence. In a sonata there will be a passage where the key changes from tonic to dominant. There will be an extra sharp added (or a flat naturalised) and new chords will suggest that something has happened and that we have left the tonic key but it won't be until the cadence at the end of the second subject that the new key is established.

In the development section new keys will be introduced but they are mostly passing modulations. If a new key ends a phrase with a final cadence and a new phrase begins in that new key then that new key will be established. Typically that won't be until a dominant passage leads us to expect a return to tonic.

No, you don't rewind mentally and say you've been in that new key but the final cadence should confirm your suspicions.

I think that this is in line with what I wrote out before. I used "I chord extensions" as an example or something concrete, but it comes down to the same thing.

What do you mean by a "major or minor key harmony"? (It's helpful to have examples going with terminology. Not only do we have different degrees of knowledge, but we may also be used to different terms.) Thx.

I mean a major chord or a minor chord not a dominant seventh such as would start an introduction. I'm thinking of Beethoven's seventh Symphony or his Op. 111 sonata.

A single major or minor chord, or at least two chords? I gave my example of "tonic extension" via Sarnecki. That kind of thing? The simplest example was C to C6; then maybe an example of C Bdim/D C6 .... we've got that C chord in there a couple of times so that the music shouts out "C". (RN's ... I - I6; I - viio6 - I6)

Note to self: check out that symphony and sonata.

Back to Sonatina 5 - 3rd mov't - Rondo

I found the beginning of the development section interesting musically. You have a chromatically descending bass line mm 62 to 64 going from E to B (E, D#, D, C#, C, B). Then again mm. 70 - 73 from A# to F# (A#, A, G#, G, F#). Essentially it's the same passage, first in the key of E minor, and then in the key of B minor. There is a call-answer feeling to it. The passages end slightly differently since they are moving to something different each time. The second one then moves into a different theme, marking an end to this repetition. I just found this really cool. How did Clementi go from mundane and boring to interesting in the second half?

Enough to establish tonality! An empty octave won't do it.

I know tonic when I hear. If a simple major chord is played in RH but the fifth is played on the bass has tonality been established? No, I don't think so.

Sonatina #1: C is established in measure 1, beat three, when the G confirms C major.

Sonatina #2: G major is etsablished on the second quaver in M2 when the bass has played the G and both D and B have been heard.

Sonatina #3: C major is established on the second quaver.

Sonatina #4: F major isn't firmly established until the A on beat three even though it's strongly pointed to (three F's and only F's on beat one). I don't think the C is needed in M2 to establish F major.

Actually I've just been all through Mozart's, Haydn's and Beethoven's sonatas and they all start on tonic except Op.111.

Toni Wine and Carole Bayer Sager didn't find it so boring!

Found it.
Mindbenders "Groovy Kind of Love"

Re-post from last Thursday;

Clementi Sonatinen No. 6 - Download

Sonatina No. 6 Movement 1

We have had one week of catching up, some rest I suppose (let me know please, if not ready yet to proceed) and great further discussion on the establishment of a new key, and other discussion. So, will see how well I can apply this.

Exposition M1 - M38

D Major | A Major

A Major is clearly stated at the end of the exposition with a V-I cadence. But, tonality is shifted starting in M13. Where is it officially established? Not sure yet, more analysis pending ...

Development M39-M55

I haven't look closely at the tonality of this section yet, but on first glance looks for the most part that we are not straying very far from D Major.

Recapitulation M56-M90

Sonatina No. 6 - Allegro con spirito


Whilst I'm comfortable with your numbers for the main sections I'd like to ask a) if you're in two sharps, what sharp do you expect next, b) what reasons do you have for suspecting M13 as beginning the shift to A major and c) where does the harmony start becoming diatonic to A major but no longer to D major?

I am ready to start on Sonatina 6.

I have been reading a bit about musicality on the web, and found one site which listed several aspects of musicality, harmony being just one of about six aspects. Interestingly, I discovered that my aural skills are just fine on the other five aspects.

I want to approach Sonatina 6 differently, taking a more aural approach (as I started to do with a previous sonatina), and also investigating the other aspects of musicality.

I am thinking about what Richard wrote about establishing a key, and realized: I'm just fine with that as a definition "cadence plus start next phrase in same key" -- or whatever tweaks you want to make to it. But I just don't hear that (except for hearing the cadence, but it doesn't necessarily make me hear or remember a specific pitch as tonic), so when Richard started attaching the establishment of a key to aural experience, that is all completely unusable information for me. (Not saying you shouldn't attach it, just remarking that I'm finally acknowledging to myself, in a neutral kind of way, where I can make sense of things and where it's just beyond me.)

Similarly with keystring's writing about the prolongation of tonic through well-chosen chords. I can find that on paper in a score, but it doesn't really mean anything to me aurally.

Anyway, after Gary's encouraging words I'm trying to let go of wanting my aural skills to match a certain preconceived idea I had gotten of what I "should" be able to do; and just appreciating what it is that I can do. Hearing harmony in ways that I can pinpoint may always be a weak point for me, but I enjoy music, and can play piano and sing (even both at the same time ) and dance musically (although not while playing piano ), so that's good.

a) G#
b) Whoops, not M13 (just read it wrong) ... more like M16 when start seeing the G#
c) M16

Edit: I don't have a good feeling about my first answer. But should know this by now. Sorry, need to dig up some previous notes. Back in a flash ...

Sonatina No. 6 - Allegro con spirito

Splendid, Jeff. So, is M16 the end of the first subject, the start of the second subject, or something else?

Are you doing a harmonic analysis of the development and finding out where the material is coming from? It doesn't look as though PS88 is.

I might, but I haven't gotten actually started yet. Finding out where the material is coming from is one of the non-harmony things I want to pay more attention to this time around.

Anyway, it's fine if Greener gets there first.

I would suggest it is something else. Seems more like a second subject coming in at M22, and not here.

Question: the next sharp, (or next flat, as it may be) we would expect is always the missing # (or flat) in the dominant of the key I am currently in. Is this correct and an appropriate way to view this?

I will take a look at development. But, will await your post on this first, PS88. Unless of course, I get some tidbits I just can't wait to share.

It's normal for a sonata in a major key to go from tonic to dominant. That's an extra sharp for sharp keys and C but a flat less for flatted keys. It's always a step to the right on your circle of fifths.

Many sonatas go to the sub-dominant before returning to tonic, that's a step to the left so it's one flat more or one sharp less.

Always the sharps and flats are added in the same order. All sharp keys have F#, the next sharp will always be C#, then G#, and so on.

Spot on. This (M16) is the bridge passage. Note how it differs from its counterpart in the recapitulation.

I have learned a new word from Greener's post: "shifting" tonality vs. "established" tonality.

So back in #4 (or was it #5), mvmt 1, would it be correct to say the tonality is shifting to D starting in m.13, and established in D in m.16?

(I'm not trying to move us back to those sonatinas; that's just the example I could thinking off the top of my head: the one that started the discussion of establishing a key.)

Yes, the introduction of non-diatonic notes/harmonies is perceived as shifting tonality until a final cadence can establish it.