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#2027835 - 02/06/13 02:30 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: keystring]
JohnSprung Offline
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Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1258
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: keystring
Have you found that this leads to having a sense of intervals and chords eventually, as well as what the notes are?


It does, but sort of indirectly. I actually don't use it much any more, but it was very helpful in the beginning. It's a quick and accurate way to get from letters on a lead sheet to fingers on the keys. It gets you playing the chords a little quicker, and then the playing is what leads to understanding how the chords work.
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#2027854 - 02/06/13 03:36 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: JohnSprung]
dire tonic Offline
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Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1176
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: JohnSprung
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
I don't get it.

e.g. Rm shows the middle note skewed to the left. That's ok for Cm but what about Am?

Maybe I'm missing something?



I've added an explanation PDF to the original post #2027127.

The idea is that the tick marks above the keyboard image (the fallboard edge of it) are equally spaced, and indicate all the keys on the keyboard. The tick marks on the chord diagrams are supposed to line up with the ones on the keyboard picture, when you put the keyboard picture on top of them. Of course, they all have to be printed out at the same scale.


Yes, I can see now that it works.

Like keystring, and probably most of us, my spatial sense of the keyboard is marked out by black keys interrupting the evident symmetry of the white keys which are all equally spaced. The fact of this failing to tally with the musical spacing - B to C is a semitone while C to D is a tone - is an anomaly I've just come to accept.

But if you go to the back of the keys at the fallboard, where you need to place your diagram, it's an entirely different story. All intervals are proportionally spaced. By lining-up the notches with the key centres, black or white, the paradox is resolved!

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#2028102 - 02/06/13 01:10 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: dire tonic]
tinman1943 Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 04 2013


Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 61
Loc: NC
Originally Posted By: dire tonic

The time for a piano octave with 6 white keys and 6 black is long overdue.
Originally Posted By: keystring
It's already been done. Maybe somebody can find the picture. laugh

I'd also like to see the pictures of a pianist trying to cope.

Here's a link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK4REjqGc9w

He left the colors the same,
but did raise some of the whites and lowered some blacks,
so all notes in a row are a whole tone apart:
C D E Gb Ab Bb
Db Eb F G A B


Edited by tinman1943 (02/06/13 03:20 PM)
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Adult Learner: PianoMagic
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#2028126 - 02/06/13 01:56 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: JohnSprung]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: JohnSprung

It does, but sort of indirectly. I actually don't use it much any more, but it was very helpful in the beginning. It's a quick and accurate way to get from letters on a lead sheet to fingers on the keys. It gets you playing the chords a little quicker, and then the playing is what leads to understanding how the chords work.

I can see how that works for you. Essentially you have a pictorial representation of how the intervals relate. For example, a major chord consists of this:
C(major 3rd = 4 semitones)E(minor 3rd = 3 semitones)G
where we're seeing the distance from C to E, and E to G.
Simplified that is
C(bigger)E(smaller)G

I have an image like that in my head, and I imagine that if you don't, then you are just memorizing things like "4 semitones" or "major 3rd" --- a pile of facts. So I see its usefulness. And then you are also automating some reflexes relating to the instrument that's between your hand and the keys. Eventually the rest of the associations kick in. Cool idea.

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#2028150 - 02/06/13 02:42 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: JohnSprung]
tinman1943 Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 04 2013


Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 61
Loc: NC
Originally Posted By: JohnSprung
Originally Posted By: tinman1943
But doing the analysis in terms of actual intervals (concurrent and sequential)
expressed as "just" frequency ratios (such as 2:3 for a "fifth") might lead to an actual understanding of why the music works.


Integer frequency ratios are a natural consequence of the physics of vibrating strings, air columns, metal bars on a glockenspiel, etc. The physics and math may make an interesting appendix to the book for those who can follow that stuff. But it doesn't do much to illuminate why we like ii - V - I chords in that order.


OK. So what I want to know is, why do we like ii - V - I?
Or why do we like ii7 - V7- I even better?

Actually, "like" is not really the issue;
what we really need to know:
what are the progressions that are most likely to occur
and therefore the ones we need to learn first?

Maybe we should start a list:
I V7 I
I IV V I
I ii7 V7 I
I I#o ii
etc.

But where does the list come from?
The Circle of Keys is a start.
But that doesn't explain when to use 7th,
or when to use minor vs major,
or dim or aug or 6 9 11 13.
Admittedly, some of those are probably more advanced topics,
but beginners don't even know what's "advanced" vs. what's "fundamental".

So as we build the list above,
we should sort it,
with the "basics" first and "advanced" progressions later.

Then part of our analysis should be:
* here are the "basic" progressions I've found
* here are some others I don't recognize or understand yet.
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Adult Learner: PianoMagic
--Music is poetry; why print it like prose?--

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#2028165 - 02/06/13 03:08 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
tinman1943 Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 04 2013


Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 61
Loc: NC
America or God Save the Queen
Have we started this one yet?
I took a quick look and it has an unusual form, 3x2 measures + 4x2 measures.
Most songs are even multiples of two or four.

Happy Birthday: 4 lines of 2 measures, but lines split after 2nd beat.

Lili Marlene: 3 lines of 4 measures,
but the 4 measures split into two groups of two.
Also, beginning with the second line, most groups start with a pick-up from the previous measure.
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tinman1943
Adult Learner: PianoMagic
--Music is poetry; why print it like prose?--

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#2028170 - 02/06/13 03:11 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: tinman1943]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3156
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: tinman1943
America or God Save the Queen
Have we started this one yet?

tinman, yes we have started it. It's on a new thread Begining Analysis 01: America / God Save The Queen.

Sorry I've been missing for several days -- I have several thoughts, but no time to put them in order!
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#2028222 - 02/06/13 04:28 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2310
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: tinman1943
OK. So what I want to know is, why do we like ii - V - I?
...
what are the progressions that are most likely to occur
and therefore the ones we need to learn first?

Maybe we should start a list:
...
But where does the list come from?

It comes from what has worked thus far in music.

When you move from the tonic (I) chord to ii, IV or vi you maintain a concord. As soon as you use a chord with the leading note in it (ii, V, or vii dim) you create discord. The dissonance creates tension and consonance releases it. The ear wants to return to consonance.

The climax of most songs occurs on the dominant. The use of the dominant seventh increases the tension by introducing the tritone, three whole tones and the most dissonant interval in Western music, between the 3rd and flat 7th degrees of the chord.

The V7-I move works because of the leading note effect (Western music is essentially shaped on and defined by the 7-8 resolution at the end of a major scale), the tritone resolution and the move of a perfect fifth in the bass, the most fundamental move in all of music.

ii is the dominant of V so the move ii-V-I is moving from the dominant of the dominant to the dominant and then on to the tonic. The ii in this instance is frequently heard in second inversion so that the root movement of a fifth is avoided that would have created a premature resolution on the dominant.
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#2028289 - 02/06/13 06:31 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
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Posts: 11581
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90

When you move from the tonic (I) chord to ii, IV or vi you maintain a concord. As soon as you use a chord with the leading note in it (ii, V, or vii dim) you create discord. The dissonance creates tension and consonance releases it. The ear wants to return to consonance.

Since this is a beginner theory section, can you explain what concord and discord are, and what maintaining one might mean? Also, do you think that there is no difference on which of the chords you would use at any time (which I think is part of the question)?

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#2028291 - 02/06/13 06:31 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
Valencia Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 244
Thanks keystring, Richard, johnsprung and Pianostudent88 for helping me to understand how we know whether it is a sharp or flat. I understand it now! (well at least I think/hope I do; whether it bears out in practice is to be seen). John and Richard, the charts and guides are great and will hopefully help me to improve my recognition of the intervals and chords because if I don’t recognize the chord just from looking at it, it seems I have to count halfsteps! That’s the only way I can seem to do it when I don’t recognize it just by looking, which isn’t so bad when I have pencil and paper in front of me and time to figure it out, but hopefully one day I’ll be better at recognizing them more easily just by looking at the score or at the piano.

Pianostudent88, I appreciate your detailed explanation which was really helpful and clear. I’ve had a go at the interval exercises you posted a link to. They are good practice! So far I’m only through up to the fourths (page 4). It’s still a brain strain to do these exercises. Here are the ones that keystring posted—I had a go at these too:

E G__ B___

E, G#, B

A C__ E___

A C# E

Db F__ A___

Db, F, Ab

Can you get this one:
B D__ F__


B D# F#

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#2028306 - 02/06/13 07:03 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: zrtf90]
dire tonic Offline
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Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1176
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
As soon as you use a chord with the leading note in it (ii, V, or vii dim) you create discord. The dissonance creates tension and consonance releases it. The ear wants to return to consonance.


The tonic ma7 and a more sophisticated ear refute that.

Quote:
...the tritone, three whole tones and the most dissonant interval in Western music...


- and yet, to me, this is a warm, bluesy interval. If we're talking about bare intervals I believe most would find the natural 7 (e.g. C-B) or b9 (C-Db) far more unsettling.

Quote:
...Western music is essentially shaped on and defined by the 7-8 resolution at the end of a major scale...


In so far as we can define a dog, and divine its shape, by referring only to the tip of its tail.

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#2028333 - 02/06/13 07:55 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: Valencia]
keystring Online   content
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Posts: 11581
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Originally Posted By: Valencia
Here are the ones that keystring posted—I had a go at these too:

E G__ B___

E, G#, B

A C__ E___

A C# E

Db F__ A___

Db, F, Ab

Can you get this one:
B D__ F__


B D# F#

Excellent. The reason I gave you this exercise was to start answering your question about chord types (kinds) and accidentals.

A "kind" of chord means whether it is major, minor, and other qualities such as diminished etc., but we will stay with major and minor for now. Each "kind" of chord has a particular quality, and this is something you can hear. All of the chords that you formed were major chords. People often hear major chords as having a "happy" sound and might even attach a colour like yellow or orange. In contrast, a minor chord is often associated with a "sad" sound, and maybe blue or green.

So you formed four chords built on the roots E, A, Db, and B respectively. Our chords are triads, which means in root position they are stacked like snowmen on adjacent lines or spaces. This also means that the letter names will skip one. That is why we had E G_ B___ which you filled out as E G# B. You could look at the black key in the middle and say "wait a minute, couldn't I call that note Ab instead of G#?", and you would be correct. If you wrote E Ab B and somebody played it, you would hear the same thing. But it would no longer be a triad with notes on adjacent lines like a snowman because the Ab would bump against the B, and you would no longer be skipping letter names. Therefore we chose E G_ B_ specifically.

This should give you the relationship between chords and accidentals. You start with a chord kind --- say major --- You have the notes of the triad which is:
E + some kind of G + some kind of B.
We need that "G" to be a semitone (half step) higher in order to have the 4 half steps from E, and to get it a semitone higher, we add a sharp. That is what sharps do. They move the note a half step higher in pitch, which we get on the piano by moving one piano key to the right. We use accidentals to make that happen.
--------------
Conversely, we also had Db F__ A___
The A is too high for it to be a P5 from Db or a minor 3 (3 half steps) from F. So you correctly lowered the A by a half step by making it Ab. The Ab lowers a note by a semitone, which on the piano means moving to the next piano key to the left.

So this is one way of looking at how chords and accidentals relate. Is anything unclear or are there any questions from this? smile

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#2028339 - 02/06/13 08:11 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
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Continuing ... Your next question, Valencia, was about key signatures and chords.

Let's take our E G# B, which is an E (major) chord. We know why we need G#. This chord is in the key of E major, where the notes are:

E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#, E. We already have G# in the scale which we started from the tonic. One question you will ask yourself is "What is the I chord of E major?" You find it by skipping every second note, looking for the snowman, and you get that same EG#B. The key signature of E major has 4 sharps: F# C# G# D#, so we don't have to use an accidental, because the G# is already in the signature.

We have the original relationship of the chord as a pure chord, being major, with E in the root, and the middle note is G#. We have a second relationship, namely that if we want to find the tonic chord (I) we start with E and we again get E G# B.

Supposing we are in the key of A major (3 sharps: F#, C#, G#).

A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A

E is the 5th note over. What is the V chord of A major? Again we can see it is E G# B. Again we don't need accidentals because that E is in the signature.

Key of B major (5 sharps: F#, C#, G#, D#, A#).

B, C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A#, B.

E is the 4th note over, and is the IV chord of B major. Again we have the notes for forming E G# B

How about D major (2 sharps: F#, C#)?
D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D

No, because we get EGB (no G#) which is Em.
We can also predict that because there is no G# in the signature, and we know the ii chord is always minor in a major key.

I don't know if this answers your second question, or if it confuses things.

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#2028565 - 02/07/13 07:01 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2310
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: keystring
Since this is a beginner theory section, can you explain what concord and discord are, and what maintaining one might mean? Also, do you think that there is no difference on which of the chords you would use at any time (which I think is part of the question)?

I covered consonance and dissonance earlier in the thread when I first introduced the terms, post #2017754, 20 Jan 2013, 10:17am, PW time.

According to Pythagoras' Theory of Proportions, the simpler the vibration ratio is between two tones, the more consonant is their interval.

The ratio of an octave is 2:1, a perfect fifth is 3:2 and a major third is 4:5. The tritone, the most dissonant interval in the octave, is 32:45.

The degree of dissonance depends, therefore, on how easy it is to recognise the repeating pattern created by the different frequecy ratios.

The difference between using one chord over another is a question of personal choice but since the development of Western harmony there has been a preponderance of moves from tonic to subdominant major, dominant major and submediant minor compared to moves going to the supertonic and moves to the mediant minor are even more rare.

You could list the effect of each change from tonic to every other possibility, they are finite, but you can't describe the effect in universally accepted terms.

Leonard Bernstein's The Unanswered Question: Six Harvard Lectures argues that humans are 'programmed', not just conditioned, to appreciate tonality and register tension and resolution, which we can do almost from birth. He argues that tonal relations are built into nature and are understood instinctively.
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#2028568 - 02/07/13 07:08 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2310
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
As soon as you use a chord with the leading note in it (ii, V, or vii dim) you create discord. The dissonance creates tension and consonance releases it. The ear wants to return to consonance.

The tonic ma7 and a more sophisticated ear refute that.

Pardon my poor proofreading, that should be iii, V and vii dim.

The tonic major seventh is an unresolved chord. It is a softer sound than the flattened seventh and is more likely to be heard in Burt Bacharach's music than rock and blues. But so few western tunes end on it.

I have likened dissonance in an earlier post to enjoying chillis. You can acquire a taste for capsaicin and enjoy eating it but it is still an irritant and people who eat it in large amounts are typically unable to appreciate the subtleties of salad vegetables. People who enjoy dissonant intervals certainly have a wider palette but if it numbs their ear to the dissonance of Mozart I'm not sure I'd describe that as sophisticated.

Originally Posted By: dire tonic
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
...the tritone, three whole tones and the most dissonant interval in Western music...


- and yet, to me, this is a warm, quite luscious interval. If we're talking about bare intervals I believe most would find the natural 7 (e.g. C-B) or b9 (C-Db) far more unsettling.

History shows otherwise. The minor second interval, B-C, is 16:15 in just temperaments.

The tritone, I believe, was banned from church music at one time.

This is a quotation from wikipedia's entry on the tritone:

"Although this ratio [45/32] is composed of numbers which are multiples of 5 or under, they are excessively large for a 5-limit scale, and are sufficient justification, either in this form or as the tempered "tritone," for the epithet "diabolic," which has been used to characterize the interval. This is a case where, because of the largeness of the numbers, none but a temperament-perverted ear could possibly prefer 45/32 to a small-number interval of about the same width."

Originally Posted By: dire tonic
In what sense do you think jazz could be "shaped on" or defined by this 7-8 resolution?
I'm not a jazz afficionado. Give me some examples of Jazz tunes that end on a seventh and I'll give them an honest listen and check out their popularity.

Originally Posted By: dire tonic
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
...Western music is essentially shaped on and defined by the 7-8 resolution at the end of a major scale...

Only in so far as we can define a dog by the tip of its tail.

I am making posts on a public forum. These aren't intended to be lapidary inscriptions. Let me soften that from 'defined by' into 'characterised by'. smile
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The governments in the US and the UK in the early eighties declared that fat makes us fat and that two and a half million years of evolution was essentially wrong. Look at the state of the nations now after forty years of low fat, high carbohydrate diets!

We can't deny history. Nearly all Western music moves from tonic to dominant and back again. The ebb and flow of tension and release is what drives it and gives it movement; we talk about harmonic progression. Most Western music closes with a perfect cadence. The tritone doesn't have to sound bad, how delightful it is that you enjoy the sound as many do, it serves to mount excitement as in the climax of "Twist and Shout" (The Beatles and The Isley Brothers) but it's the release of the tension on the return to the tonic that gives us rest.
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#2028678 - 02/07/13 11:06 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: zrtf90]
dire tonic Offline
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Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1176
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
The tonic major seventh is an unresolved chord. It is a softer sound than the flattened seventh and is more likely to be heard in Burt Bacharach's music than rock and blues. But so few western tunes end on it.


In playing the standard popular songs of the 30s/40s (Porter, Berlin, Gershwin etc) a pianist is as likely to finish on the 6th or the ma7 as the major. These are everyday subsitutions.

Quote:
I have likened dissonance in an earlier post to enjoying chillis. You can acquire a taste for capsaicin and enjoy eating it but it is still an irritant and people who eat it in large amounts are typically unable to appreciate the subtleties of salad vegetables. People who enjoy dissonant intervals certainly have a wider palette but if it numbs their ear to the dissonance of Mozart I'm not sure I'd describe that as sophisticated.


I can’t speak for the public palate, I suspect evidence is mixed. Both scotch bonnets and spinach leaves have space on my table so I don’t accept your assertion nor is the analogy sound.

Quote:
History shows otherwise. The minor second interval, B-C, is 16:15 in just temperaments.


As far as I know history says nothing about my suspicions regarding the relative tolerance to the intervals b5, ma7, b9 but by all means link me to something relevant.

Quote:
I am making posts on a public forum. These aren't intended to be lapidary inscriptions. Let me soften that from 'defined by' into 'characterised by'.


It's still a gross oversimplification.

Quote:
We can't deny history. Nearly all Western music moves from tonic to dominant and back again. The ebb and flow of tension and release is what drives it and gives it movement; we talk about harmonic progression. Most Western music closes with a perfect cadence.


I think you’ve probably spent enough time marvelling at how most western music closes. Ditto your preoccupation with tonic and dominant. Of course such movements are peppered throughout but there’s so much more going on that your 7/8 resolution plays no part in. A beginners’ thread needs basic concepts but it serves nothing to make simplistic generalisations regarding the essence of music.

Tension and release? I prefer to travel and arrive. Better to travel…and this, the greater part of the journey, is where your 7/8 resolution gets second billing.

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#2028685 - 02/07/13 11:22 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: zrtf90]
dire tonic Offline
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Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1176
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

I covered consonance and dissonance earlier in the thread when I first introduced the terms, post #2017754, 20 Jan 2013, 10:17am, PW time.

According to Pythagoras' Theory of Proportions, the simpler the vibration ratio is between two tones, the more consonant is their interval.



But frequency ratios of intervals – for whatever insight they might convey (none at all as far as I’m concerned) – have no bearing on the chaos of sonic interference that occurs when we play a chord. A four note chord has six simultaneous intervals banging against each other. A two handed ten-note chord has 45.

Dissonance and consonance are aesthetic issues. As far as I know there’s no useful science on this which will explain why our tastes and tolerances can be so radically different but links are always useful.


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#2028699 - 02/07/13 11:45 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
Chris Goslow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/11
Posts: 49
Loc: California, USA
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Several people have commented at various times that they are interested in analysis, but the current Sonata Analysis thread is too hard for them. Also people have occasionally asked, "what is analysis for?", and I hope this thread can persuade some people to dip a toe in and find out.

To me, analysis is studying a piece with an eye to understanding how it is put together. For people with a practical bent, it also includes finding ways to improve learning, practicing, playing (and optionally memorizing) a piece, in particular by understanding the structure and subtleties of a piece.


Hi PianoStudent88,

Nice idea for a thread! I'm still relatively new to posting on here and didn't really realize there was such an extensive conversation on analysis.

I like how you describe what analysis is for you. I'm definitely more pragmatic in my interest in analysis. I think I do it with a mind, ultimately, to be more informed in my own creativity.

Thanks for posting.


Edited by Chris Goslow (02/07/13 11:46 AM)
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#2028702 - 02/07/13 11:46 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
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Richard, thank you for your answer on consonance and dissonance. I've taken the liberty of putting it all under one roof. Response or further thoughts in next post.
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

I covered consonance and dissonance earlier in the thread when I first introduced the terms, post #2017754, 20 Jan 2013, 10:17am, PW time.


I found. It's part of the long post outlining a number of things, so I've taken the liberty of isolating this subject.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Dissonance and consonance is a physical effect. When there is an integral relation between the frequencies of combined notes, and the relationship involve small numbers, the waves make a pattern on our ears.

The octave is a 2:1 relationship. It sound 'the same but different' to us. All civilisations recognise the octave as fundamental in music. Up the Renaissance the octave was divided into steps from the harmonic series. Our equal temperament system, known as Western Harmony, was the result of a mathematical intervention of dividing the octave into 12 equal semitones.

It has done away with the pure harmony you can still hear in Gregorian Chant but in return has given us the ability to change key and have cadences.

The dominant has a 3:2 relation with the tonic (exactly in pure harmony, very close in Western harmony). The subdominant has 4:3 relationship (the pattern of waves repeats every seven waves).

The leading note has a relation in the order of 20:11. The pattern won't repeat until over 30 waves and the pattern is easily recognised (many pianists struggle with 4 vs 3). This pattern not being easily recognised we call dissonance.

People exposing themselves to a wide range of musical styles will develop a greater appreciation of dissonance but it's a reaction not dissimilar to people liking or disliking chilli's.


to which you have given us now
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

According to Pythagoras' Theory of Proportions, the simpler the vibration ratio is between two tones, the more consonant is their interval.

The ratio of an octave is 2:1, a perfect fifth is 3:2 and a major third is 4:5. The tritone, the most dissonant interval in the octave, is 32:45.

The degree of dissonance depends, therefore, on how easy it is to recognise the repeating pattern created by the different frequecy ratios.

The difference between using one chord over another is a question of personal choice but since the development of Western harmony there has been a preponderance of moves from tonic to subdominant major, dominant major and submediant minor compared to moves going to the supertonic and moves to the mediant minor are even more rare.

You could list the effect of each change from tonic to every other possibility, they are finite, but you can't describe the effect in universally accepted terms.

Leonard Bernstein's The Unanswered Question: Six Harvard Lectures argues that humans are 'programmed', not just conditioned, to appreciate tonality and register tension and resolution, which we can do almost from birth. He argues that tonal relations are built into nature and are understood instinctively.

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#2028720 - 02/07/13 12:16 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
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Posts: 11581
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CONSONANCE and DISSONANCE as topic

I put together Richard's two sets of explanation in one place above.

Ok, mathematics (ratios) gives us one kind of understanding which is a scientific intellectual one. If we explore this side, I would like it to be real. Otherwise 3:2 etc. are just facts. So I looked for something stretchy but taut that will vibrate ergo a rubber band. If you stretch a rubber band over something and pluck it, you get a sound. That's how guitars work. If you push on your rubber band at some point, pushing that section right into the body holding it, and then pluck. You'll get a different note. Only the plucked side will vibrate because you have effectively shortened it. If you pushed it down at the half way mark of its length, then that's a ratio. What sound do you get at that ratio relative to the original sound?

So to translate this one sentence:
Originally Posted By: zrtf
The dominant has a 3:2 relation with the tonic

it means that if you get this ratio right with your stretchy whatever (rubber band) you should hear a tone that is a P5 of the original. The Greeks did a lot with this, and it tied in with philosophical ideals of the time.

But maybe we can get much more mundane and simpler for understanding this. Simply put:

Consonance involves note combinations that we generally hear as nice, smooth, easy on the ear, settled. What people perceived as consonant has varied over the centuries, and it will also vary between cultures, and genres of music. So this is a generalization.

If you play CG, CE, CEG, you will get that sense of smoothness, niceness etc.

Dissonance involves note combinations that we generally hear as unsettled, not smooth, vibrationy (my invention), and the theory is that we want that to resolve into consonance. Again there is a huge variation on perceptions.

If you put the flat of your hand on the piano hitting all the white and black keys at the same time, you have a dissonance. If you play CDb at the same time it probably "rubs" more than CD. The tritone (FB or BF = augmented 4th or diminished 5th) has an unsettled feeling, which is why it plays an important role in a V7 (GBDF) making the movement of V7-I so strong because of the contrast.

Meanwhile there is a lot of music where these tones are standard and considered pleasant, so what is considered consonant and dissonant is not written in stone.

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#2028806 - 02/07/13 02:50 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: zrtf90]
tinman1943 Offline

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Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 61
Loc: NC
ii-V-I progression
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Originally Posted By: tinman1943
why do we like ii - V - I?
what are the progressions that are most likely to occur
and therefore the ones we need to learn first?

Highlighting added by tinman
The V7-I move works because of
* the leading note effect (Western music is essentially shaped on and defined by the 7-8 resolution at the end of a major scale),
* the tritone resolution and
* the move of a perfect fifth in the bass, the most fundamental move in all of music.

ii is the dominant of V so the move ii-V-I is moving from the dominant of the dominant to the dominant and then on to the tonic. The ii in this instance is frequently heard in second inversion so that the root movement of a fifth is avoided that would have created a premature resolution on the dominant.

Richard,
Is ii = (2 4 6) in second inversion ( 6 9 11 )?
Then ii(7) V7 I in C would go:
A (C) D F ->
G B D F ->
C E G C ?

Then what about the progression:
B (D) F G
C E G
that you so often see in beginner books?

As I've mentioned before,
one problem I have with analysis of "beginner" music is that
I never know whether the score represents "best practice"
or whether it was "simplified" (that is, distorted) just to make it "easier" for a beginner to play.

I would hope this analysis forum would shed light on that.

Of course, it may be necessary to simplify the arrangement for a beginner,
but the "simplification" should not violate basic rules.
I'd rather make the extra effort to learn to play according to the "rules"
than break the rules in order to learn to "play".

For example, if a "cadence" requires a 5-1 or 5-8 in the bass,
then it does a disservice to end an arrangement with 7-8 in the bass!

Part of "analysis" should include finding the broken rules
and either fixing them
or understanding the exceptions, if that represents the composer's intent.
_________________________
tinman1943
Adult Learner: PianoMagic
--Music is poetry; why print it like prose?--

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#2028819 - 02/07/13 03:22 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: tinman1943]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: tinman1943

Is ii = (2 4 6) in second inversion ( 6 9 11 )?
................
Then what about the progression:
B (D) F G
C E G
that you so often see in beginner books?

ii is the 2nd degree chord. This should be somewhere near the beginning of this thread. As follows:

Key of C major
I CEG
ii DFA
iii EGB
IV FAC
V GBD (V7 = GBDF)
vi ACE
viio BDF

Your BFG is part of the V7 chord BDFG as you say. The ear recognizes the V7 even without all the notes being present. The reason that it is written this way in beginner music is because it is hard for a beginner (esp. a child) to play 4 notes at the same time in one hand. When music is composed, the composer must think of its playability on that instrument. When it's for beginners, he has to think about even more things.

I don't think there is such a chord as 6 9 11, is there? In C major we'd have 6 = A, 9 = D (= 2), 11 = F (=4), i.e. 2 4 6 = ii.


Edited by keystring (02/07/13 03:24 PM)

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#2028825 - 02/07/13 03:34 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
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Posts: 11581
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About broken rules and such:
In my mind, the purpose of this exercise is to gain an understanding of the structures in music - chords, progressions, meter, signature, form etc. We are using the pieces to extract these things and get a better understanding. I don't think the main purpose is analyzing music, see which rules are broken - but rather to get at those patterns. It is not my favorite way of going about this because personally I prefer real study, but maybe it can lead to that. For example, you don't keep a concept by reading about it. You should work with it for a while. In that way the "rules" also reveal patterns in more depth.

I'm not sure whether an inverted V7 to I is not a cadence. Maybe it's a weak cadence. The step up a 5th or down a 4th which happens if the root is in the bass each time creates a strong movement, which then makes the cadence very emphatic --- Ta Daaa --- The End.

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#2029182 - 02/08/13 07:25 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
zrtf90 Offline
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Posts: 2310
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
I'm not writing a dictionary here and some of these definitions are loose. Don't fix them in your head forever based on this. Keystring has already answered before I finished compiling this so just take some overlapping for granted.

The metre is the measurement of the bar. The top number shows the number of beats between each strong accent and the lower number the relative time between each beat, the value of the beat in terms of time.

The rhythm is where the notes occur in relation to that beat. Not all the notes occur on a beat and not every beat has a note occurring on it. Tap out common time with your foot at a steady four in the bar and tap out the melody to "Pop Goes the Weasel" with a finger on your desk. Then tap out the melody to Pet Clark's "Downtown".

Your foot's tapping out the metre, your finger's tapping out the rhythm.

Beat and Pulse are what your foot's tapping out, the count can either be for your foot or for your finger.

Measure or Bar is the space between strong accents or barlines.

A strong accent is typically given to the first beat in a bar. In Common Time a medium accent is given to the third beat and a weak accent given to the second and fourth beats (stronger in rock where the back beat is emphasised). Other notes such as quavers occurring off the beat are unaccented.

Phrase is, to a certain extent, subjective. It could be a line in a song or a line could have several phrases. It's inexact. There is a way of knowing understanding where a phrase ends but I'm not prepared to offer a definition. It's largely instinctive. I don't know if you get it from listening to good musicians/singers or if it's a natural talent or something else.

A motif is a short recognisable figure such as the figure used in Beethoven's fifth symphony.

The difference between a theme and a melody is not something I want to cover using words alone. They can both be used interchangeably to a large extent but not all themes are melodies and not all melodies are themes.

A Lick is a short, typically non-repetitive, sequence of notes (really loose definition), often based on a common pattern, that might be used, for example, at the start of one of Chuck Berry's hits or between sung lines BB King's music or Dire Strait's Sultans of Swing.

A Riff is a repeating sequence of notes that forms the basis of a song such as Day Tripper (The Beatles), The Last Time (The Rolling Stones) or Whole Lotta Love (Led Zeppelin).
___________________________

There aren't distinct names for the layers you've listed other than the 3 beat measures (time signature).

Have we covered "rules" before in this thread? I haven't checked, I know I've used it somewhere recently. There are no "Rules". There are conventions and cliché's that raise expectation.

It's doing the unexpected that raises emotions and strong reactions to music. If every line in every song were four measures long and then someone threw in a three or five measure line we'd be thrown. Music thrives on the expectations set up by conventions and then doing the unexpected.

It's not a list of rules that can sometimes be broken it's a set of conventions that NEED to be broken. But they only work if they're followed most of the time - otherwise you can't build expectation.

No composers ever sat round a table and bashed out music theory. Everyone tried lots of things and what worked was repeated and that became convention. Theory in music is like theory in Chess - it's not a list of rules it's a summary of best practise so far.

There are grammatical rules in the notation to make the intention clearer and avoid misunderstanding but as to the music itself there can be no rules.
__________________________

It's a feature of musical notation that the first beat in a bar is a strong one. Music that begins with an iamb or an anapest will always begin with an anacrusis (are you familiar with the names of metrical feet?).
__________________________

6/4 and 6/8 time can be either two three's or three two's. The notes values are the key.

Picking the right rhythm for a song depends on knowing the rhythms available in your unit and reading the rhythm from the time signature and recurring note values. It's possible to find one that works most of the time but there are more rhythms written than will be in your rhythm unit. In these cases you need to use the musical/rhythmic equivalent of Lowest Common Denominator.
__________________________

I have never heard God Save the Queen described as a Galliard before. It does share a certain rhythmic element with the Galliard but these dance names were used in the suites also as an indication of tempo. The/My national anthem doesn't share it's tempo with a Galliard. It's God Save the Queen, not give her exercise! smile
_________________________
Richard

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#2029281 - 02/08/13 12:35 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: zrtf90]
jotur Offline
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Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5450
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Originally Posted By: zrtf
I have never heard God Save the Queen described as a Galliard before. It does share a certain rhythmic element with the Galliard but these dance names were used in the suites also as an indication of tempo. The/My national anthem doesn't share it's tempo with a Galliard. It's God Save the Queen, not give her exercise! smile


This. Just as everything in 3/4 time is not a waltz, not everything that may, on paper, have the notation of a galliard is a dance.

It has to do partly with tempo, but also with the accents and phrasing. All of those things help make rhythm. There is a convention, as Richard says, that makes a tune actually danceable, of rhythm, accents, tempo, phrasing. I've never heard this tune follow those conventions. It may have, back in its original form - many popular tunes were "lifted" for hymns. But in these days it isn't a galliard, whatever its notated form.

I can name several dances which when notated are in 3/4 - waltzes, hambos, mazurkas, galliards - but they have distinct sounds when played, and those sounds aren't in the notation. Again, as Richard says, there are conventions that the dance musicians knows, and they "fit" with the dance. So listening, as others have said on this and other threads, makes a big difference in one's understanding of the "feeling" of a piece. Dancers who know how to hambo wouldn't waltz to a hambo. These days, any way, in its current "sounded" form, dancers wouldn't - couldn't - dance a galliard to this tune. These conventions of the actual sound of a piece of music, rather than the notation, is why musicians who play traditional music, or dance music, or swing, or blues, or any other genre, urge musicians who are new to that genre to listen, listen, listen. Because music is an aural tradtion.

So it can be helpful to see that this tune appears to have 6-beat phrases and that its notation is similar to the 6-beat phrases of a galliard, and that indeed it may have been originally a galliard, but in this case I think the words to the tune are a closer help to the phrasing/accents/rhythm as it known today.

And while I play dance music, I couldn' play a galliard at this point in time if my life depended on it laugh But the seniors I play for sing along all the time.

Cathy
_________________________

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#2029340 - 02/08/13 02:20 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: zrtf90]
dire tonic Offline
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Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1176
Loc: uk south
I wanted to ask about this yesterday but was in a bit of a rush...

Originally Posted By: zrtf90
…the dissonance of Mozart…


I wonder if you could explain this, Richard. Does this hinge on an individual’s definition of dissonance based on personal tolerances or is there a commonly accepted notion of dissonance in Mozart?

Either way, I’d most appreciate a pointer, perhaps a youtube video together with the timing/s for some particularly dissonant moment/s – many thanks.


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#2029461 - 02/08/13 07:12 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2310
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
I wonder if you could explain this, Richard. Does this hinge on an individual’s definition of dissonance based on personal tolerances or is there a commonly accepted notion of dissonance in Mozart?
Ah, I think you've hit the nail on the head there, dire tonic. Let me try and cover this from my perspective...

Try the third and fourth bars of his Jupiter symphony (#41, K. 551). You should be able to get the score from IMSLP.

I know it's marked Allegro vivace but play over them slowly and pay particular attention to the first and third beats. Savour the sweet dissonance of the seventh between melody D and the C below it and then the even tighter clash as C and E are played below it, effectively three adjacent notes sounding together.

In it's day this would have been very emotional but to an ear dulled by twentieth century harmonies it may even seem consonant - I don't think it is but I'll get to that...

And while we're catching up I meant to respond on a couple of points yesterday but I also had more pressing matters to attend to.

Originally Posted By: dire tonic
In playing the standard popular songs of the 30s/40s (Porter, Berlin, Gershwin etc) a pianist is as likely to finish on the 6th or the ma7 as the major. These are everyday subsitutions.
I was wondering, are these the same snotty nosed summer students well established professionals who prepare 'piano arrangements' with complete disregard for the composers intentions? Is this why radio developed the fade out?

Just kidding wink

Originally Posted By: dire tonic
Both scotch bonnets and spinach leaves have space on my table so I don’t accept your assertion nor is the analogy sound.
The occasional scotch bonnet is not what I'd call 'large amounts' so you may have misunderstood my analogy. No harm done.

Originally Posted By: dire tonic
As far as I know history says nothing about my suspicions regarding the relative tolerance to the intervals b5, ma7, b9 but by all means link me to something relevant.
I wasn't discussing tolerance, relative or otherwise, so you may have completely missed my point there but I'll get to that in a moment...

Originally Posted By: dire tonic
Tension and release? I prefer to travel and arrive. Better to travel…and this, the greater part of the journey, is where your 7/8 resolution gets second billing.
I never actually gave it top billing, just importance. The 7-8 resolution is strong enough to introduce all those sharpened seventh accidentals when playing in a minor key. Nearly every great song or symphony concludes with a descent to tonic, from the dominant or mediant, or a rise to it from the leading note. Don't you find that? And that at the end of a journey isn't it comforting to know you've arrived?

Originally Posted By: dire tonic
But frequency ratios of intervals – for whatever insight they might convey (none at all as far as I’m concerned) –
He who has ears, let him hear. (Matthew 11:15)
(No offence intended, I know full well you have a well developed ear, just play on words here in response to your use of palate against mine of palette and my analogy not being "sound" - ha!)

Originally Posted By: dire tonic
A four note chord has six simultaneous intervals banging against each other. A two handed ten-note chord has 45.
Ah! Each note of a four note chord has one base frequency. You may have six simultaneous intervals but still only four base frequencies. If you struck all 88 keys of a piano the maximum number of base frequencies you could have, eliminating duplicates and excepting physical imperfections and stretch tuning etc., is twelve. The highest twelve notes, as all other frequencies would be eliminated as duplicates, no?

Originally Posted By: dire tonic
Dissonance and consonance are aesthetic issues. As far as I know there’s no useful science on this which will explain why our tastes and tolerances can be so radically different but links are always useful.
Ah, there's the rub! Here is where we appear to differ.

Consonance and dissonance - as I've been taught and given to understand - are nothing to do with aesthetics, they are physical and mathematical properties that are measured numerically. Perfect fifths, major and minor thirds are considered concords. Everything else is, to a greater or lesser degree, a discord. Aesthetics are to do with our tastes and tolerance to them and they, as far as I'm concerned, are as individual as our tastes in sex.

I hope that's cleared up any misunderstanding and sorry if I've caused confusion.
_________________________
Richard

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#2029554 - 02/08/13 10:16 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
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Registered: 12/11/07
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Consonance and dissonance - as I've been taught and given to understand - are nothing to do with aesthetics, they are physical and mathematical properties that are measured numerically. Perfect fifths, major and minor thirds are considered concords. Everything else is, to a greater or lesser degree, a discord.

I found a resource to help formulate this. Wikki article on consonance and dissonance

The terms consonance and dissonance are used in two different general ways, one of them a rather technical definition such as the one given by Richard, and the other a loose idea of pleasantness and harshness. That's a first problem in this kind of discussion. And then (from Wikki)

"Dissonance has been understood and heard differently in different musical traditions, cultures, styles, and time periods."

And then across cultures we have (Wikki):

"For instance, two notes played simultaneously but with slightly different frequencies produce a beating "wah-wah-wah" sound that is very audible. Musical styles such as traditional European classical music consider this effect to be objectionable ("out of tune") and go to great lengths to eliminate it. Other musical styles such as Indonesian gamelan consider this sound to be an attractive part of the musical timbre and go to equally great lengths to create instruments that have this slight "roughness" as a feature of their sound (Vassilakis, 2005)."

So while the physics of combined notes is unchanging, humanity's evaluation of these effects does change, and I guess that this is actually aesthetics.

What we are taught as we wend our way through harmony theory is a simplification that stays narrowly within a particular area and time period. I did not study the length of time that you did, Richard. I level 1 harmony book with a preamble to the teacher in smaller print, stating that they have simplified things in order to make way for the limited experience of students, and that the teacher is free to teach the real thing. How many students read these preambles, and how often are they there. frown

Originally Posted By: zrtf
they are physical and mathematical properties that are measured numerically.

The physical and mathematical certainly go hand in hand, since the ratios translate into vibrations with their effects. But here we also run into some of the attributes of this sound - the partials (see Wikki) are an aspect. This is also why you and Dire Tonic come up with a different number of tones, because I'm sure D T is including the partials. Meanwhile if you really come down to it, music on the piano can't be consonant anyway because it is perpetually somewhat out of tune due to equal temperament.

The most fascinating aspect of partials is the "fifth note" that barbershop quartets aspire to. If they achieve perfect tuning in a "barbershop seventh" which is like a "seven chord" (C7 etc.) then the partials recombine for a fifth note which is audible - as if there is a fifth singer. That is because every note is composed of that note plus its partials. And that is also why D T has more notes in his equation.

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#2029702 - 02/09/13 07:34 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: zrtf90]
dire tonic Offline
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Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1176
Loc: uk south
Thanks for the Mozart reference. You say..

Originally Posted By: zrtf90
In it's day this would have been very emotional but to an ear dulled by twentieth century harmonies it may even seem consonant –

- Quite!

Originally Posted By: zrtf90
I don't think it is but I'll get to that…

I look forward to that.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
In playing the standard popular songs of the 30s/40s (Porter, Berlin, Gershwin etc) a pianist is as likely to finish on the 6th or the ma7 as the major. These are everyday subsitutions.


I was wondering, are these the same snotty nosed summer students well established professionals who prepare 'piano arrangements' with complete disregard for the composers intentions? Is this why radio developed the fade out?

Just kidding

- this is a propos an earlier discussion on the travesty that is the piano arrangement of a pop song. You’ll find it’s usually the composer sporting the snotty nose and the idea he had ‘intentions’ would seem, even to him, laughably lofty. The advent of the ‘fade out’ is interesting in itself. That in conjunction with the ‘key change’ (semitone up, think Bobby Darin, ‘Mack the knife’) to my mind hints clearly at the need for movement, for travel (call it tension if you must) rather than resolution and ending (call it release if you must). There’s more to be said on this.

But to come back to the specific point above about substitutions; it’s the performer not the arranger who's plopping in his ma7 in lieu of the major and he does it to soothe his own and his audience’s sensibilities. On that subject you said...

Originally Posted By: zrtf90
The tonic major seventh is an unresolved chord. It is a softer sound than the flattened seventh ..

…just to be clear on “softer than”, I guess you’re saying that the tonic 7 is more unresolved (more tension, to use your terminology) than the tonic ma7. Is that about right?

Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
Both scotch bonnets and spinach leaves have space on my table so I don’t accept your assertion nor is the analogy sound.

The occasional scotch bonnet is not what I'd call 'large amounts' so you may have misunderstood my analogy.

I don’t think so. You were saying that just as chillies can jade the palate so can too much dissonance numb the ear to the dissonance of Mozart? I know what you’re getting at but the implication is that one is ‘missing something’. I don’t accept that but I haven’t yet thought it through.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Nearly every great song or symphony concludes with a descent to tonic, from the dominant or mediant, or a rise to it from the leading note. Don't you find that?

Yes. The literary equivalent would be “…and they all lived happily ever after”.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90
And that at the end of a journey isn't it comforting to know you've arrived?

Yes and no. I’m ambivalent about endings and I certainly don’t rejoice in sameness in art. Of course we can decorate our dominant-tonic and make it our own but this segment of the discussion arose out of your determination to define/characterise/shape music from an element of it and to suggest that this element was pre-eminent. It isn’t, it is merely commonplace.

Regarding movement: You have tension and release. I travel and arrive and just as in the adage “it’s better to travel than to arrive” I’m infinitely more fascinated by the myriad possibilities, the twists and turns of harmonic change that can occur during the journey than the hackneyed resolution we must settle for at every musical conclusion. I think it’s reasonable to talk about ‘tension’ in chords but as a description of the emotion music engenders in me, it’s a misnomer. Tension is absolutely not what I experience. I can say more about that at another time.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
A four note chord has six simultaneous intervals banging against each other. A two handed ten-note chord has 45.


Ah! Each note of a four note chord has one base frequency. You may have six simultaneous intervals but still only four base frequencies. If you struck all 88 keys of a piano the maximum number of base frequencies you could have, eliminating duplicates and excepting physical imperfections and stretch tuning etc., is twelve. The highest twelve notes, as all other frequencies would be eliminated as duplicates, no?


I don't think that's a useful description nor is it a conclusion which leads anywhere. The octaves are vital and distinct in our appreciation of sound. I (you too) can go to the piano and, using two hands, play perhaps 40 or 50 different inversions of the chord of Cmajor. Many of these will have an entirely different quality by virtue of using the full 7+ octave range.

It’s pure folly to try and understand all this in terms of the coherence of vibration when what so often enriches sound is incoherence. Think of the sound of a single violin. It’s beautiful when played well. But now think of the glorious, rich texture which fills out a concert hall when all orchestral violins are playing the same note, a unison fortissimo sustain with a passionate vibrato. What’s going on?; fine errors of tuning between performers, inconsistent rates and depths of vibrato all hopelessly out of phase, complex overtones jumping here there and everywhere off the belly of a craftsman’s secret trickery, the auditorium throwing it all hither, thither and back again in a battle of reflections resonances and echoes. So mathematically unfathomable even the beats have beats. Why does this mess of sonic interference thrill us so? And this is just one note!

As I say, it’s hard enough to reconcile what we like/dislike with frequency ratios when looking only at intervals because the numbers simply cannot account for our differences in personal taste, tolerance and conditioning. When we try to extend this to chords we have no mathematics to relate to - Pythagoras stopped short and nobody else has bothered. If we look beyond the piano to multi-timbral harmony we find far more flexible boundaries, more scope to break the 'rules' without assaulting the ears. Then there's timbre itself, the very sound of an instrument alone can excite or disappoint us. And in any case, to discuss chordal dissonance without context, without the next chord, is a nonsense. It’s one hand clapping.

Honestly, I have zero time for mathematical analyses of musical aesthetics. The only reliable observations we can make are stupefyingly banal. If it must be tackled, try it empirically. In the meantime, keystring’s synopsis above is well worth reading.



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#2029779 - 02/09/13 09:35 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2310
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Dire tonic,

You clearly have a greater knowledge, understanding and experience of music after a lifetime in the industry. Keystring has much less and is still under tutelage but I have learnt more from keystring's explanations than from any your ramblings and smoke blowing. You know a lot but sit back like a cantankerous old man criticising everyone who doesn't know or understand as much you do but you don't seem to offer more guidance except to say that there's more to it.

If you want to bring some substance to the table I'm well prepared to enjoy it.

We all benefit from sharing knowledge. You must be aware of differing definitions of consonance and dissonance unless you've lived your life in the industry with your head up your backside. Can you not try and explain what more there is to it rather than spit on the genuinely benevolent intention of explaining what many are taught as essential basics.

I have in front of me a first book on Harmony. It states that "Dissonance is an interval which sounds incomplete in itself and need some other special interval to follow after it". It gives three examples, G and F, a seventh, A and D#, a diminished fifth and Bb and C#, a major second.

Years after reading this book I was taught by an experienced musician using harmonics on a guitar to explain the physical properties of harmonics and intervals. He explained the 'beats' between the notes and how small integral relations created consonance where larger intervals created dissonance. It made sense to me and it explained what I was hearing.

Now you come on here and tell me there's more to it but you don't enlighten us with that extra knowledge. You sit back on your lofty perch and berate our lack of experience and understanding.

While keystring kneels among us and offers us pearls and gems.

I post here with the best of intentions, I have never tried to confuse or deceive and have never continued unpleasant conversations. You may kick sand in my face, dire tonic, it clings not on an anonymous forum and I flinch not from it. Based on my pm's your dire tribes do not reflect badly on me so go ahead and knock yourself out.

You don't need a doctorate in mathematics to teach basic counting to people new to the subject. But when flaws in the basics are revealed in a forum such as this there's no need for animosity and verbal flatulence. Just make a correction based on your greater knowledge and experience and let us all move on.

Just a suggestion. smile
_________________________
Richard

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