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#2028159 - 02/06/13 02:54 PM Small framed console DPs
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3524
Loc: Northern England.
Are they the future? Some sound terrible on account of their small power output, etc. But that need not be the case; indeed, it isn`t always. The specification level is high for their price.

There are comprehensive massive looking CVP Yamahas going for a song on ebay; nobody wants `em. . . the more I look at these compact pianos, the more I like them . . .

I might even bite . . . .


Edited by peterws (02/06/13 02:54 PM)
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#2028161 - 02/06/13 02:55 PM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: peterws]
adak Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 282
Loc: Canada
can you post a pic of what type of piano do you mean?
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#2028178 - 02/06/13 03:23 PM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: peterws]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 570
Loc: Mt View, CA
Like a PX-780?

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#2028227 - 02/06/13 04:38 PM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: peterws]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: peterws
Are they the future?


No they are a total waste of money like all console DP's. Your paying a lot of money for some crappy fake wood cabinet and $20 speakers.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#2028270 - 02/06/13 05:59 PM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: Dr Popper]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3524
Loc: Northern England.
Guess that`s me told . . .
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

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#2028271 - 02/06/13 06:03 PM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: adak]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3524
Loc: Northern England.
http://www.promenademusic.co.uk/keyboard...-polished-ebony

Dunno how to post pictures here . . . Can`t even get me avatar on!
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

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#2028282 - 02/06/13 06:14 PM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: Dr Popper]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2333
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
... like all console DP's. Your paying a lot of money for some crappy fake wood cabinet and $20 speakers.

...and yet there is a successful market for 'furniture' style DP's. Do you also classify these as consoles? Many people don't want an ugly slab, on an equally ugly stand, with equally ugly speakers in the living room. I know there are aesthetic exceptions, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but try convincing the (female) 'homemaker'.

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#2028283 - 02/06/13 06:22 PM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: spanishbuddha]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4968
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
... like all console DP's. Your paying a lot of money for some crappy fake wood cabinet and $20 speakers.

...and yet there is a successful market for 'furniture' style DP's. Do you also classify these as consoles? Many people don't want an ugly slab, on an equally ugly stand, with equally ugly speakers in the living room. I know there are aesthetic exceptions, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but try convincing the (female) 'homemaker'.


I'm lucky that I don't live with a 'homemaker' (female or otherwise grin), so I never have to bother with aesthetics. Even so, a black slab on a black stand is still something of a leap of faith for one used to 'real' pianos. But the thought of paying an extra £1000 (or whatever) for a cabinet full of empty air and speakers that I'll never be able to use is too much to bear.....

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#2028297 - 02/06/13 06:42 PM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: peterws]
chickenlump Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/13/12
Posts: 54
Loc: Canada
Call me vain, but the form factor and aesthetics was an important factor in choosing my DP, as long as function wasn't compromised. My CA95 has great speakers that I don't feel the need for an additional monitor... and I can leave it out in the living room. If I had a slab with wires everywhere and connected to external speakers, I would have to leave it in my study and I'd feel like I had to run off to my room to hide every time I played.
Here in the living room, I can play for family and friends, and be the target of my crazy cat who likes to jump up on my lap and try to attack my hands every time I play.

That is worth the extra cost to me. Now if only the CS10 was available when I purchased this piano... *sigh*

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#2028469 - 02/07/13 12:21 AM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: spanishbuddha]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
... like all console DP's. Your paying a lot of money for some crappy fake wood cabinet and $20 speakers.

...and yet there is a successful market for 'furniture' style DP's. Do you also classify these as consoles? Many people don't want an ugly slab, on an equally ugly stand, with equally ugly speakers in the living room. I know there are aesthetic exceptions, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but try convincing the (female) 'homemaker'.


If you want a big lump of pretty wood buy a real piano ... console DP's (ie: Furniture style as you call them) are a complete rip off. you pay thousands extra for fake stuff and terrible speakers.
I don't find keyboards ugly, or speakers ugly in fact some of the most beautiful things in the world to me are keyboards and I wouldn't marry anyone who did find them ugly.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#2028476 - 02/07/13 12:30 AM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: peterws]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 570
Loc: Mt View, CA
There's nothing wrong with getting a slim setup with a closing lid that fits in with the furniture. Not everyone wants a Nord planted in the middle of the living room on an X-stand with wires everywhere!

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#2028497 - 02/07/13 02:11 AM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: spanishbuddha]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3524
Loc: Northern England.
People do want good looking furniture in their homes even if it is MDF veneered. I think they looked better years ago.

Damit, I cant get a picture to show . . .



Edited by peterws (02/07/13 03:35 AM)
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

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#2028510 - 02/07/13 02:47 AM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: peterws]
adak Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 282
Loc: Canada
it looks pretty good to me



Edited by adak (02/07/13 02:48 AM)
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#2028543 - 02/07/13 04:44 AM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: peterws]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2333
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
... console DP's (ie: Furniture style as you call them) are a complete rip off. you pay thousands extra for fake stuff and terrible speakers.
I don't find keyboards ugly, or speakers ugly in fact some of the most beautiful things in the world to me are keyboards and I wouldn't marry anyone who did find them ugly.

Well I'm not here to defend consoles, but can you justify it with examples where the console version of a slab is thousands extra? In the UK the LX15 and CS9 were perhaps approaching that much more than their slab equivalent, but you pay for the 'design' of the cabinet and it's pretty good. I do agree that speakers and sound system could be better, but Kawai's introduction of a soundboard is interesting, and good speakers with a slab is difficult to get right, as shown by so many threads on this subject.

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#2028544 - 02/07/13 04:51 AM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: peterws]
MVshabeer2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 86
Are mid-range console speakers that bad? Ex - speakers on Roland HP 503/505, Yamaha CLP 440/470, Kawai CN34/CN43 etc..

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#2028546 - 02/07/13 05:05 AM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: peterws]
MagicK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/12
Posts: 70
Loc: Germany
My cn34 costs the same as a es7 with stand and pedals. So where is your point? And I wanted a piano that looks like as piano. Why can't some people in this forum accept that taste differs and looks sometimes matter.

And for real, a slab with a stand, lose pedal and even monitors in a living room looks awful.

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#2028547 - 02/07/13 05:05 AM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: MVshabeer2]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: MVshabeer2
Are mid-range console speakers that bad? Ex - speakers on Roland HP 503/505, Yamaha CLP 440/470, Kawai CN34/CN43 etc..


No but they aren't worth the thousands extra
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#2028566 - 02/07/13 07:01 AM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: peterws]
MVshabeer2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 86
But according to this thread, Simple things like music stand can make difference in the sound.
So I believe console pianos will have their own ambiance compared to exact slab


http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1759612

Originally Posted By: CMac
Originally Posted By: knotty
How does it sound?

Well, kinda like a piano I guess;)

The biggest difference I notice over playing with headphones on is the ambience that the cabinet brings to the sound. Listening with headphones on is akin to placing your head in the body of the piano a few inches above the strings. That is where the sound was recorded from but that is not the sound that we expect to hear when seated at the instrument. What we hear when playing a grand piano is significantly more complex than that. In my opinion to get a digital piano to sound more like a piano we really need to have either a second sample set that is recorded at the piano bench, model that location, or have a piano cabinet added to it;) In times past I never really noticed the change in a piano's sound when I moved the music rest forward two inches, but I sure notice it now. The difference between having the lid closed and on the first stick open is striking. I find myself opening and closing the lid not so much to tame the volume of the sound but rather to suit the mood that I feel when playing. I had no idea that I was going to get this when the project started. I am still modifying the equalization of the setup and probably will be for a few weeks yet. I find that the tonality of the sound changes so much as the different variables change. With the lid down the sound comes from the cabinet itself but more from bouncing off the floor. Flip over the top lid and the sound is now coming up from the top more. Seeing as how I can change the volume so easily it basically comes down to how I want the piano to sound when in that configuration. So before I do a youtube video I want to play with the eq a bit more until I am convinced that I have the sound I want. I don't know if I answered your question but I hope I made sense.



Edited by MVshabeer2 (02/07/13 07:02 AM)

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#2028595 - 02/07/13 08:08 AM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: MVshabeer2]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: MVshabeer2
But according to this thread, Simple things like music stand can make difference in the sound.
So I believe console pianos will have their own ambiance compared to exact slab


http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1759612

Originally Posted By: CMac
[quote=knotty]How does it sound?

Well, kinda like a piano I guess;)

The biggest difference I notice over playing with headphones on is the ambience that the cabinet brings to the sound. Listening with headphones on is akin to placing your head in the body of the piano a few inches above the strings. That is where the sound was recorded from but that is not the sound that we expect to hear when seated at the instrument. What we hear when playing a grand piano is significantly more complex than that. In my opinion to get a digital piano to sound more like a piano we really need to have either a second sample set that is recorded at the piano bench, model that location, or have a piano cabinet added to it;) In times past I never really noticed the change in a piano's sound when I moved the music rest forward two inches, but I sure notice it now. The difference between having the lid closed and on the first stick open is striking. I find myself opening and closing the lid not so much to tame the volume of the sound but rather to suit the mood that I feel when playing. I had no idea that I was going to get this when the project started. I am still modifying the equalization of the setup and probably will be for a few weeks yet. I find that the tonality of the sound changes so much as the different variables change. With the lid down the sound comes from the cabinet itself but more from bouncing off the floor. Flip over the top lid and the sound is now coming up from the top more. Seeing as how I can change the volume so easily it basically comes down to how I want the piano to sound when in that configuration. So before I do a youtube video I want to play with the eq a bit more until I am convinced that I have the sound I want. I don't know if I answered your question but I hope I made sense.

[/

If you think moving a music rest makes a difference go ahead .... Sounds like bull$hit to me
Sound is going to be different based on room and direction you will get the same effect bouncing a monitor speaker off the floor ceiling or opening or closing your lid in piano designer software. A few high end consoles put in nice sound (Kawai, Yamaha 480's etc) but its nothing you couldn't do far better with for 1/3 the cost by yourself. Your paying $2-3k extra for a look ... I'd think that was better spent on a acoustic or a semi console such as a ES7 or FP7F with the matching stands and pedal which look fine in a living room. I can't understand people paying for a look that's fake ... If you want the look get the real thing.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#2028690 - 02/07/13 11:27 AM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: peterws]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3524
Loc: Northern England.
"I can't understand people paying for a look that's fake ... If you want the look get the real thing."

Some digitals look a treat and are designed to appeal strongly. Others try to emulate a funky grand, and miss it; but that`s only my opinion. But if ya buy a slab on Ebay - it may have had more than a little use! Take a look at this aged beauty

http://www.muabanorgan.com/uploads/shop/pic/1306636695.nv.jpg



Edited by peterws (02/07/13 11:31 AM)
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

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#2028732 - 02/07/13 12:32 PM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: peterws]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1674
Loc: Portugal
Dr Popper said: If you want a big lump of pretty wood buy a real piano ... console DP's (ie: Furniture style as you call them) are a complete rip off. you pay thousands extra for fake stuff and terrible speakers.
I don't find keyboards ugly, or speakers ugly in fact some of the most beautiful things in the world to me are keyboards and I wouldn't marry anyone who did find them ugly.


I follow your argument, emotionally, but in fact, experience proved different.

You come back to the market of pro/semi pro & home keyboards fully expecting that all-in-one furniture type things would be a monstrous waste of money - fit only for boring benighted lounges. But it isn't true - not here anyway.

Examples: the YDP 161 (good quality budget console DP from yamaha 20+20w) €931
Yamaha P155 (slab type - no legs or 'wood' casing 12+12w) €1140

The two yamahas are virtually the same DP in different boxes - the 'furniture' console type €209 CHEAPER.

Roland FP7-f (slab with speakers but no legs & only one pedal,I think) c.€1850
Roland HP302 (solid black console) €1350

The above two have virtually if not exactly the same sound engine, electronics and similar amp & speakers. Admittedly, the FP7-f has the fake ivory keys & third sensor. But frankly, I don't miss either feature.

And saved over €500 by getting a console.....not such a moronic and misguided buy as I'd first imagined. It is true the FP7f is better equipped (piano designer etc) but by far the cheapest way to have the essentials: SN sound engine & PHAII keyboard, was a 'furniture' type piano, not a 'slab' type.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2028973 - 02/07/13 07:55 PM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: toddy]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)




Quote:
Examples: the YDP 161 (good quality budget console DP from yamaha 20+20w) €931
Yamaha P155 (slab type - no legs or 'wood' casing 12+12w) €1140

The two yamahas are virtually the same DP in different boxes - the 'furniture' console type €209 CHEAPER.


Yep its weird pricing for sure but its not representative of the rest of the world. The P-155 is usually cheaper by quite a bit.

Quote:
Roland FP7-f (slab with speakers but no legs & only one pedal,I think) c.€1850
Roland HP302 (solid black console) €1350



These two pianos are not comparable in features. The HP-302 is a two generations old PHA II board while the FP-7F is the current PHA III model. Compare the price of the FP-7F with the HP-505 to get a real apples for apples comparison on price.


Edited by Dr Popper (02/07/13 07:55 PM)
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#2028991 - 02/07/13 08:28 PM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: Dr Popper]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9019
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
The HP-302 is a two generations old PHA II board...


Roland skipped a generation with the naming (HP-30x-->HP-50x), so it's effectively one generation old.

James
x
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Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2029076 - 02/08/13 12:13 AM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: Kawai James]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
The HP-302 is a two generations old PHA II board...


Roland skipped a generation with the naming (HP-30x-->HP-50x), so it's effectively one generation old.

James
x


Maybe they don't do even numbered series ? .... they can be odd. Even so ...it's OLD ...like me.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#2029083 - 02/08/13 12:22 AM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: peterws]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9019
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
I expect the HP-40x series was skipped either because of the number 4's association with death (in China/Japan), or simply to be 'one better' than the current generation Yamaha (CLP-4xx).

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2029493 - 02/08/13 08:11 PM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: peterws]
doremi Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 1727
Some identically named actions (in slab and console) have a better feel in the console version ... not sure why.
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#2029863 - 02/09/13 12:18 PM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: Dr Popper]
personne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/24/12
Posts: 123
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper

Compare the price of the FP-7F with the HP-505 to get a real apples for apples comparison on price.

It is still not apples to apple comparison.
HP-505 has better speakers and also Sound Projection technology which FP-7F does not have.
HP-505 has (30+5)x2 speakers, FP-7F 13x2.
HP-505 has 3 pedals and improved pedal system, FP-7F has only one.
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#2029885 - 02/09/13 01:07 PM Re: Small framed console DPs [Re: peterws]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1674
Loc: Portugal
Dr Popper said: Yep its weird pricing for sure but its not representative of the rest of the world. The P-155 is usually cheaper [than the YDP161] by quite a bit.

This is Thomann, biggest music retailer in Europe & one of the biggest internationally:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/yamaha_ydp161_b_arius.htm?sid=3af48817aa0bae3e29a6dc68a8a731c6

http://www.thomann.de/gb/yamaha_p155.htm

...which today are pricing the YDP161 at €990 while the p155 is €1325. Curious, I agree but there it is in black and white.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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