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#2028109 - 02/06/13 01:20 PM Hand injury?
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
I was practicing scherzo 3 in the morning before I was warmed up (very stupid) and suddenly my left hand/lower forearm started feeling odd. A tense feeling and very slight pain in the 'boney' area of my hand. My left fingers also shake very slightly. I can see them it I hold my hand still and look at them.

Obviously playing what I did when I did was a stupid move... do I have an injury because of it? How could I help an injury like this? Should I take a break from piano for a couple of days? I'm kind of freaked out right now...

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#2028119 - 02/06/13 01:37 PM Re: Hand injury? [Re: JoelW]
Sandra M Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/11
Posts: 56
PLEASE have a doctor to look at your precious hand. I had pain in my right hand that generated up my arm. I did not see a doctor and played thinking it would go away... Not... A tendon ruptured, and I had to stop playing piano for 6 months to heal. Sandra M

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#2028120 - 02/06/13 01:42 PM Re: Hand injury? [Re: Sandra M]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19742
Loc: New York
I don't think he needs to see a doctor from just this.

Joel: Give it a good rest for at least a few hours, maybe try warming up gently later on, if there's any touch of the same symptoms, wait longer, like till tomorrow, and try again. I'd bet it'll be OK at least by tomorrow.

If not, do what Sandra said. smile

And indeed, this is an example of how it can be bad to just plunge into our playing without being warmed up.

P.S. Thanks for the nice little comment on youtube -- I'm assuming it was you. smile

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#2028123 - 02/06/13 01:51 PM Re: Hand injury? [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
I don't think he needs to see a doctor from just this.

Joel: Give it a good rest for at least a few hours, maybe try warming up gently later on, if there's any touch of the same symptoms, wait longer, like till tomorrow, and try again. I'd bet it'll be OK at least by tomorrow.

If not, do what Sandra said. smile

And indeed, this is an example of how it can be bad to just plunge into our playing without being warmed up.

P.S. Thanks for the nice little comment on youtube -- I'm assuming it was you. smile


Okay I will wait until tomorrow to see if it has gone away.




And yes, that's me! I think you do a good job on both pieces but I really like the Danse Eccentrique. Very good!

His Danse Eccentrique... such a good piece... written at very young age too. During his movie "The Last Romantic" he plays some improvisation that leaves me awestruck. Not because of some outstanding technical piece, but by a simple little tune. He should have become a composer... really...

Here it is!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hwLYZd6iyA#t=12m08s

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#2028342 - 02/06/13 08:15 PM Re: Hand injury? [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19742
Loc: New York
Yes -- thanks! I would have replied on the youtube page but couldn't because somehow my account got screwed up and I'm not able to log in to it! (Long story....my e-mail got changed, that account is under the old e-mail, and youtube doesn't allow me to log in except under my new e-mail, which was made a new account. Pretty screwy.)

BTW, how's the hand?

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#2028349 - 02/06/13 08:26 PM Re: Hand injury? [Re: JoelW]
Sand Tiger Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 1023
Loc: Southern California
For minor discomfort, start with ice and rest. I use a cold water bottle instead of an ice pack. A day or two of rest would be a start. Soaking in warm water can also help. If discomfort is becoming pain, especially chronic pain, especially if the condition is lingering for weeks, seek medical assistance.

No matter the case, take it easy when you go back to playing. Diving right in again is looking for trouble.
_________________________
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#2028354 - 02/06/13 08:37 PM Re: Hand injury? [Re: JoelW]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Well it's 8:36 PM and my hand feels fine. It's definitely gotten better since this morning, but I'm gonna give it another full day.

Thanks everyone.

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#2028371 - 02/06/13 08:56 PM Re: Hand injury? [Re: JoelW]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5296
Loc: Philadelphia
I would give it the extra day, and definitely ice it as suggested. If the symptoms do not improve within 48 hours, see the doctor. Heat may not help (I'm guessing this is an acute, inflammation-induced issue). Typically, you only use heat for chronic injuries with no inflammation or swelling (ie sore/stiff muscle/joint pain). If you want, you can use heat before playing, because it will help loosen you up and stimulate blood flow, but not after. You should almost always use ice after the activity.

Here is a really good 'basic' article on heat vs ice: http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/rehab/a/heatorcold.htm


It is interesting that you say the 3rd scherzo, and only the LH. It leads me to believe there may be some underlying tension in your playing. Did you feel the pain while playing? How long would you say you were playing before you felt it? In which section did you feel it? (Octaves or the middle section?) How much time do you spend practicing per day?
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2028380 - 02/06/13 09:04 PM Re: Hand injury? [Re: Derulux]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Quote:
It is interesting that you say the 3rd scherzo, and only the LH. It leads me to believe there may be some underlying tension in your playing. Did you feel the pain while playing? How long would you say you were playing before you felt it? In which section did you feel it? (Octaves or the middle section?) How much time do you spend practicing per day?


I think there is underlying tension in my octaves. And yes, it was the octave section. Actually, and this might have been a bad idea, but a couple hours after the injury happened I went back to the piano with my still slightly crippled hand and played the octaves again, only this time it forced me to play with no tension, even if it meant slowing down a little bit. And I'm happy to say that I was playing BETTER with an injured hand than with a good hand... I guess the forced no-tension playing really helped.

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#2028438 - 02/06/13 11:30 PM Re: Hand injury? [Re: JoelW]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5296
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Quote:
It is interesting that you say the 3rd scherzo, and only the LH. It leads me to believe there may be some underlying tension in your playing. Did you feel the pain while playing? How long would you say you were playing before you felt it? In which section did you feel it? (Octaves or the middle section?) How much time do you spend practicing per day?


I think there is underlying tension in my octaves. And yes, it was the octave section. Actually, and this might have been a bad idea, but a couple hours after the injury happened I went back to the piano with my still slightly crippled hand and played the octaves again, only this time it forced me to play with no tension, even if it meant slowing down a little bit. And I'm happy to say that I was playing BETTER with an injured hand than with a good hand... I guess the forced no-tension playing really helped.

That really was going to be my guess, because it's a unique challenge to the 3rd scherzo vs the other three. But I didn't want to jump all over it and then be wrong. laugh

Any chance you can post a video (in a couple days when the soreness is gone) of you practicing it? I'd like to take a look. Maybe we can help reduce some of that tension? smile
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2028537 - 02/07/13 04:25 AM Re: Hand injury? [Re: Derulux]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Quote:
It is interesting that you say the 3rd scherzo, and only the LH. It leads me to believe there may be some underlying tension in your playing. Did you feel the pain while playing? How long would you say you were playing before you felt it? In which section did you feel it? (Octaves or the middle section?) How much time do you spend practicing per day?


I think there is underlying tension in my octaves. And yes, it was the octave section. Actually, and this might have been a bad idea, but a couple hours after the injury happened I went back to the piano with my still slightly crippled hand and played the octaves again, only this time it forced me to play with no tension, even if it meant slowing down a little bit. And I'm happy to say that I was playing BETTER with an injured hand than with a good hand... I guess the forced no-tension playing really helped.

That really was going to be my guess, because it's a unique challenge to the 3rd scherzo vs the other three. But I didn't want to jump all over it and then be wrong. laugh

Any chance you can post a video (in a couple days when the soreness is gone) of you practicing it? I'd like to take a look. Maybe we can help reduce some of that tension? smile


I can give it a shot. My camera's audio doesn't work so I'm going to have to record it straight from my computer using audacity while the camera is rolling then sync them up after. Not to hard to do, but is that kind of sound quality good enough?

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#2028903 - 02/07/13 05:53 PM Re: Hand injury? [Re: JoelW]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5296
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Quote:
It is interesting that you say the 3rd scherzo, and only the LH. It leads me to believe there may be some underlying tension in your playing. Did you feel the pain while playing? How long would you say you were playing before you felt it? In which section did you feel it? (Octaves or the middle section?) How much time do you spend practicing per day?


I think there is underlying tension in my octaves. And yes, it was the octave section. Actually, and this might have been a bad idea, but a couple hours after the injury happened I went back to the piano with my still slightly crippled hand and played the octaves again, only this time it forced me to play with no tension, even if it meant slowing down a little bit. And I'm happy to say that I was playing BETTER with an injured hand than with a good hand... I guess the forced no-tension playing really helped.

That really was going to be my guess, because it's a unique challenge to the 3rd scherzo vs the other three. But I didn't want to jump all over it and then be wrong. laugh

Any chance you can post a video (in a couple days when the soreness is gone) of you practicing it? I'd like to take a look. Maybe we can help reduce some of that tension? smile


I can give it a shot. My camera's audio doesn't work so I'm going to have to record it straight from my computer using audacity while the camera is rolling then sync them up after. Not to hard to do, but is that kind of sound quality good enough?

Great, that sounds like it would work. I'm more concerned about visual than audio. Sometimes, when the visual is really close, the audio can tip you off to an issue, but most of the time I can spot things just by seeing the hands move.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2126497 - 08/01/13 03:53 PM Re: Hand injury? [Re: JoelW]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
I can't believe that I did this AGAIN.

I just jumped back into scherzo 3 without having played it for months. I used way too much force to compensate for my rustiness and hurt my hand. It's my right one this time, and feels exactly the way I describe in the original post.

This was about four days ago and I still can't even play a nocturne without it acting up. I'm pretty freaking worried. I'm thinking about not playing for a whole week.

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#2126570 - 08/01/13 06:22 PM Re: Hand injury? [Re: JoelW]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 706
My two cents worth, which Laguna Greg won't like, (who is actually quite knowledgeable, and then some regarding the physiology of hand injuries) is an excerpt from Thomas Mark's Octave seminar.

Numero uno, you let the octave open the hand, which means you don't stretch out ahead of time until you get to the octave passage. This is important because you do not stretch your hand out, short of its maximum reach, and then hold that tension.

This is one of the tenants of the Taubman technique which is that you do not prepare, in terms of an outstretched hand, for the next chord or set of broken chord notes. You, instead, wait for it to come along, and once you are finished, you let the hand collapse into its normal state.

Numero dos, each octave should be played with strictly arm weight, with key push back, from octave to octave. You start off with one octave, and then you put your hand/hands in your lap. Then, you move on incrementally from there.

And finally, and I have been there, you are any athlete. This means that you NEVER, NEVER NEVER!!! utilize the muscles of your forearm or the bones, tendons and ligaments associated with them, until you feel loose.

Whether it is summer or winter, I always make sure I am loose for a couple of minutes before I get started. A great way to eliminate the worry is to run both of your hands and forearm under warm water for about 30 seconds before you ever touch the piano.

One of the major differences between a good Chiropractor and an Orthopaedist is that the Chiropractor always makes a detailed inquiry as to the pattern of behavior associated with a particular injury. This is crucial to stop repeating the mistake and its relative injury.

That means you need to exam how you brush your teeth, hold a fork, turn a doorknob, or whatever you do on a daily basis with your hands and forearms. Once you get well, which should be soon, this will mean more to you on a long term basis than any therapy regimen.

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#2126575 - 08/01/13 06:35 PM Re: Hand injury? [Re: JoelW]
Michael Sayers Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 1048
Loc: Stockholms ln, Sverige
Hi Joel,

If you worry about this too much then this eagerness for a resolution might interfere with making the correct decision.

Just because the neurons say everything is better, which I am sure they will do soon, doesn't mean that everything is ready to go.

What I suggest is that you allow more time than seems necessary for recovery and take a hard look at octave technique because that seems to be when this issue arises, and also at what is involved with fortissimo tone production. Ideally, as with the live Josef Hofmann Casimir Hall recitals from the late 1930s, the progression from ppp to fff should not sound any different than turning up a volume knob on a sound system - the tone quality can be the same throughout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqPN4gXy834
(different composition but same composer . . . just listen to 7:15 to the end - amazing!)

I wouldn't want to speculate on specifically what is causing your issue because I've never had the issue with my wrists . . . in my belief there needs to be some reading up on this from various sources, and while experimenting with the octave techniques the ears can hear through the piano tone when a technique is better or worse.

Differences in piano tone quality are the best guide to determining the right technique for anything, the best pianists are the best listeners.

M.

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#2126623 - 08/01/13 08:38 PM Re: Hand injury? [Re: Michael Sayers]
Arghhh Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 1061
Originally Posted By: Michael Sayers

I wouldn't want to speculate on specifically what is causing your issue because I've never had the issue with my wrists . . . in my belief there needs to be some reading up on this from various sources, and while experimenting with the octave techniques the ears can hear through the piano tone when a technique is better or worse.

Differences in piano tone quality are the best guide to determining the right technique for anything, the best pianists are the best listeners.


For clarification (I don't think this would contradict what you are saying) - I think that there is still a wrong way, or ways, to create a good tone quality. Otherwise you are getting into an argument that reminds me of this quote from Voltaire's Candide:
Quote:
Observe that noses were made to wear spectacles; and so we have spectacles. Legs were visibly instituted to be breeched, and we have breeches. Stones were formed to be quarried and to build castles; and My Lord has a very noble castle; the greatest Baron in the province should have the best house; and as pigs were made to be eaten, we eat pork all year round; consequently, those who have asserted all is well talk nonsense; they ought to have said that all is for the best."
- Voltaire, Candide, Chapter 1


Yes, let the ears be your guide, but don't ignore everything else.

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#2126714 - 08/02/13 12:34 AM Re: Hand injury? [Re: Louis Podesta]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Hi All,

Sorry for my absence. I had serial house guests and then had to go out of town to work with a client.

"One of the major differences between a good Chiropractor and an Orthopaedist is that the Chiropractor always makes a detailed inquiry as to the pattern of behavior associated with a particular injury."

What Louis says is very true about chiropractors. Nevertheless, orthopods and chiros both have their respective uses. You just need to know how to use them properly.

The problem with nascent injuries is that they don't stay nascent, especially if you don't give them enough time to heal sufficiently. The initial stage of injury is the breaking of mast cells through trauma and the release of histamine into the surrounding tissues and fluids. This causes edema, bringing more fluids infusing into the area to bring nutrients and oxygen to the site of injury, which speeds healing. But ultimately the swelling progresses to surrounding the tissues, which can impair circulation. This is a bad thing for number of reasons too detailed to write here.

People here are giving you very good advice regarding the 1st aid. You should follow it. And I know it's tempting to "pick the scab off" to see how it's healing. Don't. Muscular contractions above 10% for their total strength output impede circulation. So when you are playing, if your technique is incorrect, your muscular contractions quickly become isometric, slowing down or stopping blood flow into the affected tissues so long as you are playing. The affected tissues will become ischemic, or oxygen-starved, in that region that is already injured. And damaged tissues form fibrotic scar tissues in the absence of oxygen. These fibroses ultimately cause many more mechanical and physiological problems over time than edema in the soft tissues.

Put the Scherzo down, and back out of room. Give it a few days or a week, and then try it again carefully.

And why aren't you having lessons with a good Taubman teacher who can show you how to play these passages WITHOUT hurting yourself (and much more easily than you do now), as well as show you what Taubman meant by tone colors?
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2126741 - 08/02/13 01:41 AM Re: Hand injury? [Re: laguna_greg]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19742
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
(quoted from Louis:)"One of the major differences between a good Chiropractor and an Orthopaedist is that the Chiropractor always makes a detailed inquiry as to the pattern of behavior associated with a particular injury."

What Louis says is very true about chiropractors. Nevertheless, orthopods and chiros both have their respective uses.....

Well no, it can't be really true. grin
No such thing is uniformly true of anything, nor is the opposite anywhere near true of orthopedists -- in fact, in my experience with them, it's more false than true. BTW I have nothing particularly against chiropractors; I've been treated by one and got a lot of help from him. But what's not true is not true.

Joel: As I'm sure you know, not necessarily everything else on here is as true as it was presented either, especially the "musts" for certain physical movements or approaches and some of the medical information. Mostly use your own sense in judging it all, and when in doubt, well, use your own sense. smile

I think the only reliable generalization we can give you is to take a little rest at the moment (unlikely that anywhere near a full week is needed), and then indeed, as several people have said, take more care to avoid doing strenuous playing without being better warmed up. I know that this it's hard -- I violate it myself way too often -- but keep it in mind, and occurrences like this are a sore reminder. Regarding your basic physical approaches to your playing, I doubt that you need any overhaul on this account.

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#2126744 - 08/02/13 01:58 AM Re: Hand injury? [Re: JoelW]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Thanks everyone for the helpful advice.

I have a question regarding serious injury. I once heard a college student talk about how he injured his hand very badly. He had to wait six months for it to recover, and after that time his pain was obviously gone and everything seemed normal. When he returned to the piano after that long recovery, the pain came back instantly. This scares the crap out of me. How does one injure themselves like this? And why did his injury instantly come back full throttle after returning to the piano?

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#2126746 - 08/02/13 02:02 AM Re: Hand injury? [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19742
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: JoelW
....why did his injury instantly come back full throttle after returning to the piano?

Because it wasn't fully healed, and then when he started playing, he did the same thing he did before, and the same thing happened.

I don't think there's any way for us to try to answer the rest of what you're wondering about his thing. It depends on specifics that we don't know.

But I don't think you need very much to be afraid of it being the same way with you. His kind of scenario is the exception rather than the rule, plus I tend to doubt he gave it the kind of thought and care you're giving it, or else it probably wouldn't have happened again like that.

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#2126747 - 08/02/13 02:07 AM Re: Hand injury? [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
His kind of scenario is the exception rather than the rule, plus I tend to doubt he gave it the kind of thought and care you're giving it, or else it probably wouldn't have happened again like that.


This makes me feel a lot better.

Have you ever injured yourself?

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#2126753 - 08/02/13 02:22 AM Re: Hand injury? [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19742
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: JoelW
....Have you ever injured yourself?

Yes, a few times. First time was when I came back to piano full-force to start doing amateur competitions. I quickly developed a problem with the left hand. With the help of my teacher, I figured out that it was caused by holding the hand in an awkward position for certain kinds of passages. When I fixed that (which also involved changing some fingerings), the hand got better pretty quickly. More recently I sort of wrecked my hands from working my butt off to make an audition tape for a competition -- just general overuse of both hands. It hampered me in the competition (2011 amateur Cliburn) because it kept me from practicing as much as I needed to -- it's why I had trouble with almost every difficult R.H. passage -- and I didn't fully recover for over a year. I should have just stopped playing for a while after that event but kept going because there was another event that I didn't want to miss.


Edited by Mark_C (08/02/13 02:29 AM)

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#2126755 - 08/02/13 02:27 AM Re: Hand injury? [Re: Mark_C]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: JoelW
....Have you ever injured yourself?

Yes, a few times. First time was when I came back to piano full-force to start doing amateur competitions. I quickly developed a problem with the left hand. With the help of my teacher, I figured out that it was caused by holding the hand in an awkward position for certain kinds of passages. When I fixed that (which also involved changing some fingerings), the hand got better pretty quickly. More recently I sort of wrecked my hands from working my butt off to make an audition tape for a competition -- just general overuse of both hands. It hampered me in the competition (2011 amateur Cliburn) because it kept me from practicing as much as I needed to -- it's why I had trouble with almost every difficult R.H. passage -- and I didn't fully recover for about a year.


I had NO idea you were playing the quarterfinal and semifinal rounds injured... Wow!! I hope you are well now! Will you be in the 2015? smile

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#2126756 - 08/02/13 02:29 AM Re: Hand injury? [Re: Orange Soda King]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19742
Loc: New York
OSK: Thanks for asking. It was even worse than that because I got sick between the rounds and could barely practice at all for the semi-finals. I really should have withdrawn, but when you've entered a few times before without making anything and then you make the semi-finals, you don't withdraw. grin

Yeah, I'll be fine for the 2015, unless I'm stupid again like I was a couple of years ago.


BTW, the piece I wrecked my hands with was (of all things!) a Schubert sonata.


Edited by Mark_C (08/02/13 02:33 AM)

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#2126757 - 08/02/13 02:31 AM Re: Hand injury? [Re: JoelW]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
I'm sure you'll be fine in 2015, Mark. I'm looking forward to hearing you again. smile

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#2126760 - 08/02/13 02:35 AM Re: Hand injury? [Re: JoelW]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Wow. That is impressive, Mark.

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#2126764 - 08/02/13 02:43 AM Re: Hand injury? [Re: Mark_C]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Hi Mark and Joel.

"His kind of scenario is the exception rather than the rule..."

No, I'm afraid it's rather common. Studies done through musicians' unions of professional orchestra players who play a minimum 20-week season show that this is very often how musicians' injuries start and recur over a lifetime. Surveys of music school students done in the 90s suggest that the same pattern of initial injury and re-injury happens among music students before they even leave school.

Joel, if you go back to the movement pattern or technique that brought on the injury in the first place, you are going to re-injure yourself even if you manage to make a full recovery. If you don't make a full recovery, you will be more prone to re-injury in the same area. Which is why you need to take this rest time very seriously.

How will you know if you are ready to return to the instrument? Very simple: it shouldn't hurt to play that passage. If it starts hurting, it means 1- you are probably not yet healed enough to play it, and 2-you are still moving in the same way that got you injured in the first place. If you've done the 1st Aid properly, and you've rested enough, play other passages that don't hurt first. If you tolerate those well, try the octaves carefully and see how it goes.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2126768 - 08/02/13 02:59 AM Re: Hand injury? [Re: laguna_greg]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19742
Loc: New York
Greg: It seems you are completely ignoring the factor of playing strenuous stuff without being well warmed up, which I suspect here. If you hurt yourself that way, there wasn't necessarily anything wrong with how you were playing.

I absolutely agree with:

Quote:
....if you go back to the movement pattern or technique that brought on the injury in the first place, you are going to re-injure yourself....

....but we don't know there was any such thing here.

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#2126794 - 08/02/13 04:26 AM Re: Hand injury? [Re: JoelW]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
I hate to say this, because I know how you're going to take it, but I'm guessing your technique isn't yet ready for things like the Chopin scherzi. The vast majority of hand injuries I've seen (and I've seen plenty over nearly 35 years of teaching) are due to taking on things that are too big for the technique at hand (no pun intended). We have all done it... we try to play those knucklebusters that we're crazy about, though we know damned well that they're beyond us. And what do we do? We hear what we think of as, "hey, that actually wasn't half bad", and so we attack certain passages with aplomb anew, which means far too fast and then, what happens is that the physical screams out to us trying to tell us that, "HEY! I'm not ready for this!" (and yet we tend to ignore what our bodies say and "push through it", which is incredibly stupid).
Of course, I've not heard you play, nor have I SEEN you play in person, but I'm willing to bet I'm correct in this. Lay off things for a while, see your doctor, if only to make yourself feel better (ignore medical advice from this forum and ignore those who tell you not to bother seeing a doctor, because they are NOT doctors), and when you do come back to things you should a) get yourself a teacher and b) work on rep that fits your technique while working on strengthening your technique so that you ARE able to take on the scherzi, etc.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2126841 - 08/02/13 08:59 AM Re: Hand injury? [Re: stores]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: stores
I hate to say this, because I know how you're going to take it, but I'm guessing your technique isn't yet ready for things like the Chopin scherzi. The vast majority of hand injuries I've seen (and I've seen plenty over nearly 35 years of teaching) are due to taking on things that are too big for the technique at hand (no pun intended). We have all done it... we try to play those knucklebusters that we're crazy about, though we know damned well that they're beyond us. And what do we do? We hear what we think of as, "hey, that actually wasn't half bad", and so we attack certain passages with aplomb anew, which means far too fast and then, what happens is that the physical screams out to us trying to tell us that, "HEY! I'm not ready for this!" (and yet we tend to ignore what our bodies say and "push through it", which is incredibly stupid).
Of course, I've not heard you play, nor have I SEEN you play in person, but I'm willing to bet I'm correct in this. Lay off things for a while, see your doctor, if only to make yourself feel better (ignore medical advice from this forum and ignore those who tell you not to bother seeing a doctor, because they are NOT doctors), and when you do come back to things you should a) get yourself a teacher and b) work on rep that fits your technique while working on strengthening your technique so that you ARE able to take on the scherzi, etc.


Maybe you can take a look at this short clip and judge for yourself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74UXihtlTCY

You're right about the scherzi. Scherzo 3 injures me every time and well, scherzo 4 I just had to put down due to those g**damn staccato chords. And you're right, I am going to wait until I get re-situated with my teacher before I take on knuckle breakers. My previous teacher, who I will be returning to, is a college professor so there's no doubt that I'm making the right choice by temporarily ditching the scherzi and anything on that level.


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