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#2029022 - 02/07/13 09:53 PM Buckskin like concrete
pianotune2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/01/12
Posts: 61
Loc: ks
I had a warranty job on a 1980 Baldwin console today. Been in customers house for a little over a month now, I tuned it shortly before it left the store. At this time played and sounded great. Was called to the customers house because of a knocking sound, I figured pencil or something easy etc... Turns out all, every single bit of buckskin from hammer butt buckskin, to backcheck buckskin was rock hard. It seriously felt like concrete. Customer stated that she heard nothing for about two weeks after getting piano then almost over night started hearing the clicking.
I have seen plenty of buckskin that was worn overtime etc... but nothing like this. Her house was at 72 degrees and 41% Humidity. The tuning was still almost spot on.
What could cause this? Remedy?


Edited by pianotune2 (02/07/13 09:54 PM)
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#2029027 - 02/07/13 10:03 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Baldwin made a boat load of this stuff and it is called "corfam." It is basically fake leather. The correct procedure is replacing all of the buckskin. Hammer butt leathers and butt heel leathers. It is a lot of work. I would venture a guess that perhaps someone in the store needled the leather enough to make the sound go away possibly, but that will not last. Replacement is the only hope for it.
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Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#2029031 - 02/07/13 10:18 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
pianotune2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/01/12
Posts: 61
Loc: ks
Thanks for the info. I tried to needle it and couldn't hardly get a needle in it. Do they make any type of softener, for leather etc... that might work.
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Stewart Moore
Piano Technician North Central and North East Kansas

www.pianotune2.webs.com

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#2029062 - 02/07/13 11:42 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
To my knowledge no. Especially because this stuff is not leather. That was one of Baldwins biggest mistakes was installing the Corfam. There are tens of thousands of pianos out there with that stuff in them. It was a disaster.

As bad as it sounds, your best bet is to replace them all. You will have a happy customer then.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#2029069 - 02/07/13 11:52 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Dale Fox Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1056
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
Jerry gives good advice.
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Registered Piano Technician
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#2029097 - 02/08/13 01:15 AM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
kpembrook Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1306
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
To my knowledge no. Especially because this stuff is not leather. That was one of Baldwins biggest mistakes was installing the Corfam. There are tens of thousands of pianos out there with that stuff in them. It was a disaster.

As bad as it sounds, your best bet is to replace them all. You will have a happy customer then.



This the correct repair. I was a Baldwin dealer at the time -- in addition to being a technician. They sent out handy kits to do the job. It really isn't that bad to do. It can be even be done without removing the hammer butts. Whether that is any faster depends on what tools you have and how dexterous you are. It does save a bit of re-alignment.
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#2029107 - 02/08/13 02:10 AM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
I would be tempted to replace the butts - lock, stock and barrel. Those parts were crappy from the start, let's face it. The old hammers were most often hardened to a rock-like state. Put in nice new butts and hammers. The thing could finally feel, sound and play like a musical instrument.
(not a big fan of those clangy boxes)

Oh, yikes, did you say Warranty Tuning? help I hope they don't shoot the messenger.
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Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

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#2029159 - 02/08/13 05:15 AM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7434
Loc: France
is not it a polyurethane material ?

did you try PU solvent to soften the material ? just for the experiment, it certainly should not last even if it works.





Edited by Olek (02/08/13 05:15 AM)
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#2029207 - 02/08/13 08:46 AM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Why waste the time and energy Isaac if it isn't going to work anyway.
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Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#2029212 - 02/08/13 08:51 AM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7434
Loc: France
just curious, the Ecsaine we use today is a microfiber polyurethane, I wondered of any future instability of the product (but does not seem to be the case )
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#2029523 - 02/08/13 09:03 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: Olek]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1960
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I believe the elasticisers, (sp?) in escaine are much more stable than the corfam. I have seen 25YO escaine that felt like new. But a real organic chemist from the fabric industry could tell us more authoritatively.
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#2029578 - 02/08/13 11:30 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
pianotune2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/01/12
Posts: 61
Loc: ks
Thanks everyone for the info. The customer has decided to trade the piano back in on a new Kawai. Owner of the piano store has not decided what he wants to do on the Baldwin. I can't believe I have never run across this before, but at least now I know for the future.
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#2029605 - 02/09/13 12:47 AM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Sounds like it worked out amazingly well for the dealer - instead of selling a 30+ year old clacker, he was able to sell a new piano. Better for the client as well. And better for the technician, not having to deal with the corfam. At least this time around.
A win-win-win situation.
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#2029609 - 02/09/13 01:00 AM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
BDB Online   content
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Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21398
Loc: Oakland
Except the dealer is stuck with a piano that may cost more to make acceptable than he can sell it for,
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#2029689 - 02/09/13 06:54 AM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7434
Loc: France
I suggest we give each a little money to help that dealer wink
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#2029771 - 02/09/13 09:25 AM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: BDB]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Originally Posted By: BDB
Except the dealer is stuck with a piano that may cost more to make acceptable than he can sell it for,


Hahaha. I feel sorry for the dealer... NOT! smile It's great that the dealer took it back and it was definately a win win for both of them, no doubt about that but, I find it mighty hard to believe the dealer wasn't aware of these Baldwin problems seeing as it is so wide spread.

The dealer has choices. Fix it and sell it for more, taking a little loss but, perhaps not because:

A: He probably only pays his technicians $15 an hour so if it took them 10 hours to fix it (an exaggeration in time but easier to figure) it would only cost him give or take, $150.00. Double that and he's made something on that part of it.

B: He sold them a new piano so that makes up some of the loss if he has any at all.

C: Trash it. It should never have been sold in that condition in the first place and frankly, I find it hard to believe it didn't start clacking until 2 weeks after delivery.... Something fishy in the tank about that one to me.... Any Baldwin I encounter with that stuff on it NOW always clacks. wink
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Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

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#2029792 - 02/09/13 10:04 AM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Just a question in relation to this.... is corfam the only synthetic buckskin out there or are there other types which don't have this problem? I got a few rolls of the synthetic buckskin from years back, never used it for anything yet and it still feels fairly soft. Does corfam get hard from use, or just from age, or both?
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#2029803 - 02/09/13 10:25 AM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7434
Loc: France
No it is an old product, what you may have can be Ecsain or other similar microfiber. No problems in time for what I know. Widely used, it is easier than finding the correct leather
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#2029847 - 02/09/13 11:53 AM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Nash. Piano Rescue Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 384
Loc: East Nashville,TN Scottsville...
It went something like this.... Baldwin marketing people were sitting around in the think tank brainstorming over the 3 cent extra cost of leather scrap when... Behold !

Ricardo Montlaban popped up on TV with his " Rich Corinthian Leather" Chrysler Cordoba commercials... The rest as we know it was history.

smile
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Nashville Piano Rescue
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East Nashville
Bowling Green, KY
Scottsville KY.
Chamber of Commerce
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Putting inspiration in the hands of area musicians
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#2029912 - 02/09/13 01:59 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7434
Loc: France
Corfam have been used for shoes at those times, they all cracked after some months of use so the problems with the product where known soon, I suppose.

Finding similar leather qualities than the one we found in old instruments certainly became very difficult at some point.

Between a hard leather that is noisy and need numerous talcum/teflon application to be fine, and a syntehtic product that is used by Yamaha since 2 or 3 decades, I prefer the last (and there is some kind of "nap orientation"

See the yamaha backchecks, they dont wear particularely fast.
OK not at all the quality of the extra thick buckskin of older Steinways, but OK for me (expensive, it is frown )


Edited by Olek (02/09/13 02:00 PM)
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2029920 - 02/09/13 02:12 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7434
Loc: France
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2029995 - 02/09/13 05:28 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
pianotune2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/01/12
Posts: 61
Loc: ks
Jerry,
I am the technician at the store also and can say the piano was not making that noise at the store. The piano was only in the store for a short time before it was resold. I tuned it during this time, with no issues on it. I will probably be the one to fix it when it gets back in the store, and the store pays me very well for my time. The dealer is not in the habit of selling "junk" pianos, and by no means would leave a piano in a customers home that they were not happy with.

This situation really stumped me because of the way it happened so quickly. In the end every one is happy, the customer is getting a wonderful piano, I will have a new customer with a nice piano to service, and the dealer has a happy customer to spread the good word about his business.
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Stewart Moore
Piano Technician North Central and North East Kansas

www.pianotune2.webs.com

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#2030003 - 02/09/13 05:57 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I'm glad to hear that the dealer isn't in the habit of selling junk and that it turned into a wining position for everyone. I'm also happy to hear that you're pleased with your pay. Many dealers do not pay the techs squat.

I've worked on hundreds and hundreds of these Baldwins over the years. I'm surprised this is the first one you've seen. Unless you're a fairly new tech?

By the way, please read Piano World rules. http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea....html#Post24766


Edited by Jerry Groot RPT (02/09/13 07:54 PM)
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Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#2030050 - 02/09/13 08:04 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
It is possible that the client may not have bought a piano from the store at all if there hadn't been that used one, no doubt at an attractive price. So it is the cheap piano that gets the customer in the door, and in the end they wind up with a larger purchase of a new piano. Kind of like a bait and switch, but less intentional. In the end, if everyone is happy with the outcome, it is all good. (And, the dealer gets to keep the cheap used piano to bring another customer in through the door).
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Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#2030064 - 02/09/13 08:20 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: kpembrook]
RestorerPhil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 212
Loc: Georgia, USA
A friend action rebuilder of mine (now deceased) used to like to rebuild butts without removal. He removed the dampers, hammer rail and spring rail, then reworked both leathers and the butt felt. This especially makes sense on a fairly new action with this synthetic leather problem, considering that the rest of the hammer assembly may be just fine.

Thinking back, the reason I didn't care for his method much of the time is that on an older piano there are quite a few loose centers on those hammer butts in the central keyboard and some too-snug ones often at the extremes. In light of that, it made more sense to me to remove all the butts to do the rebuild. Of course, when you get to this level of tedium, the thought of new butts and shanks has to come up. Thirty years ago, however, we did some of the old uprights which had massive thick hammers with plenty of felt left, so we simply reworked the existing butt/shank/hammer as an assembly. Often, the customer got ten more years out of the hammer felt - or more.
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#2030148 - 02/09/13 10:43 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
pianotune2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/01/12
Posts: 61
Loc: ks
Jerry,
I am surprised also I have not run into this, I still feel like a new tech, even though I have been working on pianos for 13yrs. If I am lucky I wont see another one of these Baldwins again. The dealer has been in business for 30yrs and not seen this, he was even a Baldwin dealer for awhile. Seems like some crazy odds neither of us has run across this before, maybe I need to go buy a lottery ticket. Thanks for the info, I do appreciate it.



Edited by pianotune2 (02/09/13 11:38 PM)
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Piano Technician North Central and North East Kansas

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#2030154 - 02/09/13 10:56 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
You're more than welcome Steward. I'm glad I was able to help!
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Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#2030165 - 02/09/13 11:30 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
TunerJeff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 459
Loc: Oregon Coast
Dear Jerry,

Darn. Here I was hoping that someone had found a magic fluid to restore that nasty stuff to soft resiliency again with a dab of a hypo-oiler. Rats. One experiment I never tried was that car dashboard stuff that's supposed to make things soft again. ArmorAll! But, I never did try it....

I worked for a Baldwin dealership back in the 80's, when these actions started to clack. They used to give you a kit with hammerbutt leather and catcher pre-cut. The old material pulls out fairly easily from the butt (...or did then) and you can pretty easily get it replaced. The kit we were handed included CA-glue for the job with a small tip on the bottle.

You put a dab in the bottom of the hammerbutt leather and slide into the slot, pushing quickly to get it in with short tweezers, and then a dab in the top and push it into place. Hold for a moment and it's done. No glue in the center where the jack hits it. The job can be done with the parts on the rail, and this does save time in trying to re-regulate and align everything. But...honestly the dang hammers need reshaping anyhow! Goodness knows.

Did many a job on them. Still see them fairly regularly. Story I got from Baldwin was not that they were saving money. They could not get a reliable source for the leather, and looked for something else to replace it. Fake shoe leather developed for the Army seemed a good bet...not. Of course...that might be the story they were selling to explain the change!

Scratching the head,
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Oregon Coast Piano Services
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#2030166 - 02/09/13 11:36 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21398
Loc: Oakland
There was a shortage of leather for a while. There was a Steinway from that era that I used to tune that had solid felt knuckles, not covered with leather. Aeolian was using cloth for leather on other parts.
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#2030205 - 02/10/13 01:15 AM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: TunerJeff]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: TunerJeff
... Story I got from Baldwin was not that they were saving money....
For me, there is little question that Baldwin was trying to save money by scrimping on action materials wherever they could. One only needs to look at the narrow width of hammer rail cloth, key back rail cloth and other areas to see that they were saving at least 30% on material in those places by reducing the width to to absolute minimum. I have not seen it like that in any other brand, no matter how cheap.
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#2030328 - 02/10/13 08:42 AM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Hi Jeffery,

Thanks for your reply and observations. smile

I agree with Jurgen's opinion too. I have no doubt in my mind either that Baldwin was scrimping . Besides looking for cheaper leather, look at what they did with the bridal wires on many brands? If you removed the straps or replaced them, which was inevitable, good luck getting them to stay back on again. It was virtually impossible with the lousy idea they had in changing the design of the wire itself.

I worked for a Baldwin/Yamaha/Aeolian/etc., dealer for 6 years 3 days a week. He was one of my mentor's and always stressed quality. He was a dealer/rebuilder/technician/RPT. He'd say things like; "you'll get further along in life doing the job right rather than doing a half a... job like anyone can do." Along with, "if you can't do it right, either call in the troops or don't do it at all."

My dad stressed those same words along with "honesty, intregrity and quality. "Those that have the best of these 3 things, will remain in business the longest when the economy turns sour" they would say. "The rest of them will find that what they do to cut corners will bite them in the butt one day."

My dealer always wondered why the rest of the piano manufacturer's seemed to manage to find the better quality material but Baldwin seemed to continue using the same old crap even years down the line.

In many cases, the corfam hardened already within the warranty period yet, it seems they continued using it regardless eventually winding up with tens of thousands of them with this stuff on them.

What really got to us as techs, was when Baldwin started dictating to us, what they would be willing to pay us to replace the stuff. It was so little that it wasn't worth doing the work so many techs that I know simply refused to do it at all. And that was only IF, it happened to show up during the warranty period. Sad.

_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#2030380 - 02/10/13 10:15 AM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: TunerJeff]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1961
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Jeffrey,

Originally Posted By: TunerJeff
I worked for a Baldwin dealership back in the 80's, when these actions started to clack. They used to give you a kit with hammerbutt leather and catcher pre-cut. The old material pulls out fairly easily from the butt (...or did then) and you can pretty easily get it replaced. The kit we were handed included CA-glue for the job with a small tip on the bottle.

You put a dab in the bottom of the hammerbutt leather and slide into the slot, pushing quickly to get it in with short tweezers, and then a dab in the top and push it into place. Hold for a moment and it's done. No glue in the center where the jack hits it.
[...]
Did many a job on them. Still see them fairly regularly.
[...]


If you still see these repaired pianos quite regularly, you might be able to answer something I've been wondering:

Is a cloth-to-wood or leather-to-wood repair using CA durable in the long term?

And if it is indeed durable, why is CA not used more extensively in action building and repairs? (Seeing as it is so easy and quick to use...)
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#2030423 - 02/10/13 11:48 AM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
RestorerPhil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 212
Loc: Georgia, USA
A manufacturer (such as Baldwin back when) making statements about supply is probably saying secretly, "not readily available at the cost point we want." The demand/supply gets out of whack for a while, the cost goes up, so they go el cheapo!

Some of the old uprights have a very thick leather on the butt knuckles that I have been told was elk leather. I have never actually tried it, but there are internet sources these days for remnant portions of about any kind of leather, including buffalo and elk. I like the kangaroo sold by Schaff.

What is your favorite these days?
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#2030477 - 02/10/13 12:55 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I usually just order it from either Pianotek which is located right here in Michigan or from Schaff cut into strips. Right now I've got a back stock of them from years ago yet.

As for these jobs? I won't do them. I sub contract them out. wink I have plenty of other "funner things" to do than that. College work, concert work etc. smile

When I did though, personally, I like real leather. I don't know what it's all made out of, never got into that but, the softer mushier stuff seems to bunch up more and allows hammers to bounce off from, rather than to catch them on the back checks. There are a few brands out there today that use the softer stuff that I speak of.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#2030510 - 02/10/13 01:30 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: Mark R.]
RestorerPhil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 212
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Is a cloth-to-wood or leather-to-wood repair using CA durable in the long term?

And if it is indeed durable, why is CA not used more extensively in action building and repairs? (Seeing as it is so easy and quick to use...)


Mark,
from a manufacturing standpoint CA is one of the more expensive glues. Machinery can make efficient use of many cheap hot-melts and other cheaper types which work well. These adhesives are not as practical in hand work, unless the circumstances permit it. CA's advantage is speed and the fact that you don't need to clamp it for long, if at all. (Just don't glue your fingers in the process.) So, from a manufacturing standpoint, why use the highest price glue to only get a similar result.

On the other hand, the thin CAs tend to wick away. In other words they can soak into soft leather and felt. This eliminates much of a "glue line" which creates the actual bond. Also, it can harden the material which you want to adhere to the substrate. The type to glue leather, for example, would be the gel thickness or thicker, so as to prevent the problem. The bond itself is very durable, just not always the easiest choice.

In a similar vein, when using a water based glue, felt or leather can be sized first with a preliminary application of glue and allowed to partially dry, so that the real bonding layer does not soak in and become ineffective. The reason I like old hide glue with the glue pot is the benefits of low-to-no clamp time and the non-wicking property which the glue has. It cools so quickly that it does not have time to soak deeply, assuming it has not been chemically retarded and the glue is the right thickness for the job at hand.
_________________________
Lavender Piano Services
Established 1977
Tuning, Concert Maintenance,
Rebuilding & Restoration

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#2030518 - 02/10/13 01:36 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7434
Loc: France
And it allow to gain some stretch when it sets
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2030597 - 02/10/13 03:38 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
TunerJeff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 459
Loc: Oregon Coast
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Hi Jeffery, Thanks for your reply and observations. He'd say things like; "you'll get further along in life doing the job right rather than doing a half a... job like anyone can do." Along with, "if you can't do it right, either call in the troops or don't do it at all."


Dear Jerry,

Yup. Along with that is the ever popular; 'There never seems to be enough time to do it right, but there's always time to do it over."

True, eh?
_________________________
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com

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#2030621 - 02/10/13 04:08 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: Mark R.]
TunerJeff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 459
Loc: Oregon Coast
Originally Posted By: Mark R.

If you still see these repaired pianos quite regularly, you might be able to answer something I've been wondering: Is a cloth-to-wood or leather-to-wood repair using CA durable in the long term? And if it is indeed durable, why is CA not used more extensively in action building and repairs? (Seeing as it is so easy and quick to use...)


Dear Mark,

None of the CA glueing on these butts has failed to my knowledge. I've not had a callback on any in 20+ years, at least. I do NOT use CA for any major parts installing, as you are wondering.

I'm not enough of a chemist to tell you the problems with longterm CA aging. I do know that M&H, or the WNG parts section, are using CA for the hammer to shank gluing on the new tube-shanks they created. Bruce Clark gave a fascinating seminar in Portland on using the new WNG materials. I know they have confidence in their approach and the durability of the job.

Perhaps others can weigh in on this? One issue is easily seen on keyboards where an owner has CA'd keytops back on. The rigid glue (and others, too) fails when the keystick expands under the keytop and pops the joint. Might be an issue in other joints, too. Gotta use the right glue for the right job in any gluing situation!

Roger Jolly/Samick, at national, suggested using PVC-E glue to attach the leather pads on grand-trapwork (where the pedal rod contacts the lever, for example), and adds a drop of CA to get them to stay put immediately. I have used that idea successfully. But, using CA as a regular glue in actions? No.

Let's see what others have to say!

In breathless anticipation,
I am,
Turning blue....
_________________________
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com

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#2030643 - 02/10/13 04:40 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7434
Loc: France
The old glue for leather/metal was burnt shellac , worked quiet well .
PVCE works fine , sometime, I have seen damper felt glued with PVCE falling literally from the wood some 10 years later
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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