Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 8 of 14 < 1 2 ... 6 7 8 9 10 ... 13 14 >
Topic Options
#2031764 - 02/12/13 10:49 AM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: carey]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: theJourney

Pop music is heroic, accessible, ubiquitous, forward-looking, free, open and relevant.

Relevant to what???? Most of it may be relevant for the moment - but it quickly becomes passe, largely forgotten, and replaced by something else with a similarly short lifespan. That's why I personally don't follow it anymore.

Relevant to whom: billions of listeners whose (low) expectations are met and for whom pop music is exactly what the doctor ordered.

When what we call classical music was being written, in Vienna for example at the end of the 18th century, there was also a constant, fickle demand for the latest, greatest new music just as there is with what we call pop music today. Mozart had to deal with going from being the toast of the town to being a has been during the same length of time that the careers of Neil Sedaka or Barry Manilow were still going strong. Scary.
Originally Posted By: carey

Quote:
Classical music is passe, fussy, formal, confining, prissy, closed and irrelevant.

Sure, whatever - but it seems to have great "staying" power amongst those who make the effort to understand and appreciate it.


Some has, and some hasn't. There is more art music from the past that has been relegated to the great junk heap of history than there is literature that has survived in the active repertoire.

However, people don't live in the past and they don't live in the future, they live in the here and now. The music that is most relevant today -- to the largest percentage of living people in the history of the world that have been able to enjoy professional music -- is pop. Outside of perhaps China the group of people that you and I belong to, classical music liefhabbers und kenners, to those of us in the West, is getting relatively smaller and smaller.

And, I forgot to mention " elitist ". To the extent that anti-intellectualism, populism and a distrust of elites colors a culture or national debates, classical music's position will continue to be marginalized.

Originally Posted By: carey

Quote:
Liberace is the limp-wristed hood ornament on the classical piano vehicle in the public's unconscious mind's eye.
Elton John, despite the funny eyeglasses and the husband, has us humming the tunes rather than rolling our eyes.

Society has changed dramatically (did I say DRAMATICALLY ?) since the 1950's. As timed marched on, even Liberace became more flamboyant and over the top in his public persona - without losing his appeal to general audiences. And, anyway, the "public" that you are referring to is dying off - and most young folks today don't even have a clue who Liberace was.



Unfortunately the public that is patronizing classical music also seems increasingly to be dying off.

What I will say is that, judging from the audience composition at the concerts of his that I attended, Lang Lang is today's "classical rock star pianist" generating a lot of excitement and inspiration for a lot of young aspiring classical pianists.

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#2031785 - 02/12/13 11:44 AM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: theJourney]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6287
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: theJourney

Pop music is heroic, accessible, ubiquitous, forward-looking, free, open and relevant.

Relevant to what???? Most of it may be relevant for the moment - but it quickly becomes passe, largely forgotten, and replaced by something else with a similarly short lifespan. That's why I personally don't follow it anymore.

Relevant to whom: billions of listeners whose (low) expectations are met and for whom pop music is exactly what the doctor ordered.


What - Whom - Whatever.

And quite frankly, it reflects the lack of decent music education programs in the schools. But, I agree it is a losing battle.

Quote:
When what we call classical music was being written, in Vienna for example at the end of the 18th century, there was also a constant, fickle demand for the latest, greatest new music just as there is with what we call pop music today. Mozart had to deal with going from being the toast of the town to being a has been during the same length of time that the careers of Neil Sedaka or Barry Manilow were still going strong. Scary.
Except for the fact that Mozart's music has survived - and will probably continue to survive. Sedaka and Maniow on the other hand......

Originally Posted By: carey

Quote:
Classical music is passe, fussy, formal, confining, prissy, closed and irrelevant.

Sure, whatever - but it seems to have great "staying" power amongst those who make the effort to understand and appreciate it.


Quote:
Some has, and some hasn't. There is more art music from the past that has been relegated to the great junk heap of history than there is literature that has survived in the active repertoire.


The works that have survived in the active repertoire probably deserved to survive...although there are a few that I could probably do without... ha

Quote:
However, people don't live in the past and they don't live in the future, they live in the here and now. The music that is most relevant today -- to the largest percentage of living people in the history of the world that have been able to enjoy professional music -- is pop. Outside of perhaps China the group of people that you and I belong to, classical music liefhabbers und kenners, to those of us in the West, is getting relatively smaller and smaller.

And, I forgot to mention " elitist ". To the extent that anti-intellectualism, populism and a distrust of elites colors a culture or national debates, classical music's position will continue to be marginalized.

Sad but true.
Originally Posted By: carey

Quote:
Liberace is the limp-wristed hood ornament on the classical piano vehicle in the public's unconscious mind's eye.
Elton John, despite the funny eyeglasses and the husband, has us humming the tunes rather than rolling our eyes.

Society has changed dramatically (did I say DRAMATICALLY ?) since the 1950's. As timed marched on, even Liberace became more flamboyant and over the top in his public persona - without losing his appeal to general audiences. And, anyway, the "public" that you are referring to is dying off - and most young folks today don't even have a clue who Liberace was.
Quote:
Unfortunately the public that is patronizing classical music also seems increasingly to be dying off.

Seems they've been dying off for the past 50 years - yet there always appears to be a new crop of "blue hairs" filling the seats at symphony concerts to replace the ones that have departed. We're probably good for another 50 years or so !!
Quote:
What I will say is that, judging from the audience composition at the concerts of his that I attended, Lang Lang is today's "classical rock star pianist" generating a lot of excitement and inspiration for a lot of young aspiring classical pianists.

Good point - I was going to mention LL myself. Interestingly, classical ballet is another art form that seems to be catching on with the younger generation. At least that's the case in our city.
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2031932 - 02/12/13 03:40 PM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: GeorgeB]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Why ... just why have people been saying classical music is dying? That same garbage has been said for the past 70 years. It hasn't happened yet, and it won't happen.

It's people who really believe that bullshit who are contributing nothing but gloomy and untrue words. Instead, do something about it. Produce good quality music, play outreach concerts. Something. Stop dumbing down audiences and calling classical music elitist. What good does that do?
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2031940 - 02/12/13 03:51 PM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: GeorgeB]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
And the reason why older people tend to make up most of the audiences is simply because they are retired and have more time to go. Btw, in Europe the ages are quite varied. Why? Because the majority of people aren't workaholics.

Just because more people prefer the vomit that constitutes pop music today doesn't decrease the value of classical music and it certainly doesn't make it irrelevant. Have human emotions become irrelevant? Unless that happens, art will never be irrelevant.


Edited by Pogorelich. (02/12/13 04:17 PM)
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2031948 - 02/12/13 04:00 PM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: GeorgeB]
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
well said pogorelich. And definately true in the UK as well, there has been many examples of the young and alienated getting to grips with classical music and this has elevated some out of very bad situations.

There is a youtube video of bellamy from "supergroup" Muse, allthough muse may not be well known here OR everyones cup of tea, their success is not in question, my point here is that the video is showing him playing a chopin nocturne, and from comments I have read on other sites the consensus from muse lovers, is that this just goes to show how talented he is,

what they do not show, is any mockery of classical music from MUse lovers.

Folk are always ready to see what they call the "bad aspects" of the young, ie pop music,txt speak, etc etc etc, But, it has oft been shown that given half a chance the young can and do appreciate classical music just like the rest of us.

The televising of last night at the proms invariably shows a young and highly appreciative audience at the front of the stage.
_________________________


Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project

Top
#2031956 - 02/12/13 04:13 PM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: Pogorelich.]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6287
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Why ... just why have people been saying classical music is dying? That same garbage has been said for the past 70 years. It hasn't happened yet, and it won't happen.

It's people who really believe that bullshit who are contributing nothing but gloomy and untrue words. Instead, do something about it. Produce good quality music, play outreach concerts. Something. Stop dumbing down audiences and calling classical music elitist. What good does that do?

No good at all !! And that's why talented, dedicated, young musicians like you will continue to fight and make sure that classical music prospers !!! Go for it !!!! thumb
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2031964 - 02/12/13 04:21 PM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: GeorgeB]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
I don't even understand why anyone would think that classical music is dying anyway. Just because it isn't pop doesn't mean it's going to die. Ironically, it's the other way around. And besides, classical music and its followers is a sub-culture. Just like any other non-pop genre. The other big one I can think of is jazz.

Classical dying? Hahahaha, no.

Top
#2031977 - 02/12/13 04:37 PM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: Rostosky]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8841
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Rostosky

The televising of last night at the proms invariably shows a young and highly appreciative audience at the front of the stage.

And a few years ago you could have seen me there!

I was heartened several weeks ago to sit amongst a young and very vibrant audience at a performance of Messiaen's Turangalila. (Okay, perhaps it's a slightly hipper piece of music than, say, a Schumann symphony.)
_________________________
Jason

Top
#2031989 - 02/12/13 05:01 PM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: GeorgeB]
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1659
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
I'm not going to get into the question of hetero vs. homo pianists, which I've discussed before.

But in relation to the aging of Classical music's audience - there's certainly no evidence of it in Cleveland. Severance Hall is filled with younger people, thanks to an aggressive outreach program to area college students. Indeed, the oldest audience I've seen at Severance lately was for a Roberta Flack concert.
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

Top
#2031996 - 02/12/13 05:12 PM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: Pogorelich.]
Tim Adrianson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/10
Posts: 1043
I agree with you totally, Pogo -- there continues to be a significant body of younger people who still ARE interested in classical music, and those people are far more knowing and talented in performance than, say, 40 - 50 years ago. Just to maintain continuity in this thread, I think it WAS unquestionable that, here in the US, classical music WAS seen as the province of homosexuals by a great contingent of the middle-class community; and I think it WAS unquestionable that homosexuality WAS seen as irredeemably evil; at best, a source of shame. But I emphasize the WAS's because it seems to me that these paradigms have changed completely over my lifetime. Without getting into it, I speak from personal experience here.

Top
#2032000 - 02/12/13 05:14 PM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: GeorgeB]
Brad Hoehne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/22/11
Posts: 366
Loc: Ohio
For what it's worth, I had a master class with Earl Wild, who was gay, and he strongly implied (which was all you could do in those days) that Maurice Ravel (who had had met in his younger days) was.
_________________________
1999 Petrof 125-111 (upright)
Casio Privia PX-330

Currently working on:
Rach. Prelude Op 32 #12
Mozart Piano Sonata #17, K570
Villa-Lobos, Bachianas Brasileiras #4
Playing by ear and "filling out" pop tunes

Top
#2032013 - 02/12/13 05:37 PM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: Brad Hoehne]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8841
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Brad Hoehne
For what it's worth, I had a master class with Earl Wild, who was gay, and he strongly implied (which was all you could do in those days) that Maurice Ravel (who had had met in his younger days) was.

You will find quite a bit of info about Ravel and other musicians in the book 'Queer Episodes in Music and Modern Identity'. Take a preview here.
_________________________
Jason

Top
#2032019 - 02/12/13 05:45 PM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: GeorgeB]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19267
Loc: New York City
I can only speak about my own experiences going to mostly piano recitals in NYC for many decades since I came here for college. A very big percentage of the audience has always the 60+ age group. The main venues I have gone to are Carnegie Hall and Mannes.

I certainly do not think great art will ever die out or become irrelevant, but I do think that the number of young people going to concerts is quite small and perhaps decreasing. Certainly at the schools I taught at for many years the interest in classical music was extremely small.

Hopefully the huge increase in interest in Western classical music in Asia and interest in Europe will make up for what seems to be a lack of interest in the U.S.


Edited by pianoloverus (02/12/13 05:51 PM)

Top
#2032039 - 02/12/13 06:31 PM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: Tim Adrianson]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6287
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Tim Adrianson
Just to maintain continuity in this thread, I think it WAS unquestionable that, here in the US, classical music WAS seen as the province of homosexuals by a great contingent of the middle-class community;


Tim - where in the world did you get that impression????

Quote:
and I think it WAS unquestionable that homosexuality WAS seen as irredeemably evil; at best, a source of shame.
But I emphasize the WAS's because it seems to me that these paradigms have changed completely over my lifetime. Without getting into it, I speak from personal experience here.


I'm not sure that the first paradigm was ever really the case - and I don't think the second paradigm has really changed all that much. There certainly is greater tolerance - but it's not universal - which is unfortunate.
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2032045 - 02/12/13 06:40 PM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: JoelW]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6287
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: JoelW
I don't even understand why anyone would think that classical music is dying anyway. Just because it isn't pop doesn't mean it's going to die. Ironically, it's the other way around. And besides, classical music and its followers is a sub-culture. Just like any other non-pop genre. The other big one I can think of is jazz.

Classical dying? Hahahaha, no.

Perhaps - but some symphony orchestras in the US are struggling to stay afloat - seeking new business models - and dumbing down their product to appeal to a wider audience. Classical music may indeed be a subculture - but it is challenging to sustain.
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2032049 - 02/12/13 06:45 PM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: Pogorelich.]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7784
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Why ... just why have people been saying classical music is dying? That same garbage has been said for the past 70 years. It hasn't happened yet, and it won't happen.



In the US, the most visible and easily verifiable reason is that some orchestras have gone under without being replaced.

And in my experience, the average age of the audience at recitals is getting older and older, and those who aren't old seem to be Asian music students. The broad range of middle-aged people I used to see seems to have almost completely disappeared.

And, in my experience, the percentage of households with a piano and someone who can play a bit of classical music on it is also much lower than it once was. And of the pianos I do see, a certain number of them are purely status symbols that don't get regular use.

So, those are some reasons people say classical music is dying. There are also reasons to say it is not dying, but that wasn't your question.

Top
#2032058 - 02/12/13 06:56 PM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: carey]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: JoelW
I don't even understand why anyone would think that classical music is dying anyway. Just because it isn't pop doesn't mean it's going to die. Ironically, it's the other way around. And besides, classical music and its followers is a sub-culture. Just like any other non-pop genre. The other big one I can think of is jazz.

Classical dying? Hahahaha, no.

Perhaps - but some symphony orchestras in the US are struggling to stay afloat - seeking new business models - and dumbing down their product to appeal to a wider audience. Classical music may indeed be a subculture - but it is challenging to sustain.


I suppose. But the scores will always be there, as well as the recordings. The musicians will always be there too, whether they're playing for a living or not. Concert going is wonderful, but it's definitely not why I love classical music. If the concerts went away, as awful as that'd be, I would still be a devoted fan.


Edited by JoelW (02/12/13 07:04 PM)
Edit Reason: Stupid typos...

Top
#2032061 - 02/12/13 07:01 PM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: JoelW]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6287
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: JoelW
I don't even understand why anyone would think that classical music is dying anyway. Just because it isn't pop doesn't mean it's going to die. Ironically, it's the other way around. And besides, classical music and its followers is a sub-culture. Just like any other non-pop genre. The other big one I can think of is jazz. Classical dying? Hahahaha, no.

Perhaps - but some symphony orchestras in the US are struggling to stay afloat - seeking new business models - and dumbing down their product to appeal to a wider audience. Classical music may indeed be a subculture - but it is challenging to sustain.
I supposed. But the scores will always be there, as well as our the recordings. The musicians will always be there too, whether they're playing for a living or not. Concert going is wonderful, but it's definitely not why I love classical music. If the concerts went away, as awful as that'd be, I would still be a devoted fan.


But of course !!!!! grin
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2032206 - 02/13/13 12:37 AM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: Whizbang]
CWPiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/08
Posts: 212
Originally Posted By: Whizbang
Originally Posted By: CWPiano
I think the subject of society's perception of homosexuals and professions associated with it is something we can't ignore as the impact is very real. Allow me to illustrate with my own experience.

...


Geez. A breath of fresh air on this thread.

I think there are most certainly cultural differences. Around the turn of the 20th century, in the US, the piano was definitely view as a girl's instrument--that is, if I'm to believe statements I've read by Gershwin and Morton.

In the US, at least, and to my impression, which may be very flawed, the piano as an instrument no longer has that stigma (say, compared to the flute), though perhaps classical music might. Certainly, music isn't viewed as manly as a pastime as, oh, football, but I never got the sense growing up that it came with a particular effeminate stigma. But I wasn't a part of that music study subculture.

While the plural of anecdote isn't evidence, I find that most of the (predominantly mainland) Chinese people I work with (in tech) want their kids to study an instrument, including piano, regardless of sex.

What, would you posit, is the difference, in this regard, if any, between mainland and HK Chinese culture and Indonesian Chinese culture?


Yes, in Hong Kong and Singapore (where I work now), males are more free to learn piano. This is because the learning in these two cities are very much exam-driven and there are actual academic incentives to learn piano. In Hongkong, grade 8 and Diplomas can be converted to credit to improve one's chances to gain admission into college (similar to UK). In Singapore, being able to play piano at a good standard could make admission into the good schools easier as there is always a shortage of good young pianists for extra curricular activities. So, you see, practicality in the end outweighs social stigma.

Unfortunately though, although males are more free to learn piano, there is still a stigma associated with music profession itself and many parents are still reluctant to let their sons to become a musician because it is regarded as one of the lesser professions. Whenever I attend a seminar or masterclass, majority of teachers attending are still very much females.
_________________________
Singapore based private teacher specialising in accelerated ABRSM course.
Author of Visual Guides to Scales and Arpeggios.
Visit my website at www.wunadymusicstudio.com

Top
#2032225 - 02/13/13 01:16 AM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: Pogorelich.]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Why ... just why have people been saying classical music is dying? That same garbage has been said for the past 70 years. It hasn't happened yet, and it won't happen.

It's people who really believe that bullshit who are contributing nothing but gloomy and untrue words. Instead, do something about it. Produce good quality music, play outreach concerts. Something. Stop dumbing down audiences and calling classical music elitist. What good does that do?


Postivism and Optimism are one thing. But history, reality, current trends and the facts are ignored or manipulated at risk of our own peril.

The factual history of the 1000 years of Western classical music is that it was and is created by and for the elites; the history of the creation, sponsorship, patronage and usage of classical music is in fact littered with often oppressive, unenlightened, anti-social elites.

Much of the classical music that was being commissioned (e.g. operas of John Adams) in the giddy 80's and 90's of the previous century, those years of gross materialism and crass commercialism, was also being paid for by modern day robber barons (venture capitalists) desperately wanting to depict themselves as actually being humane and listened to by affluent audiences.

Any art form that in reality requires 10 years of carefully cultivated attention or study to really appreciate rather than just attending $200 a head concerts in order to " see and be seen " with the right crowds and to sleep through, catching up unobtrusively on nap time after a hard day's work is certainly elitist from the point of view of your average citizen who mostly listens to Sky Radio to and from work on their daily commute and who doens't have $200 to their name at the end of each month.


Edited by theJourney (02/13/13 01:28 AM)

Top
#2032232 - 02/13/13 01:37 AM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: Tim Adrianson]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Hank Drake
the oldest audience I've seen at Severance lately was for a Roberta Flack concert.


LOL

Originally Posted By: Tim Adrianson
Just to maintain continuity in this thread, I think it WAS unquestionable that, here in the US, classical music WAS seen as the province of homosexuals by a great contingent of the middle-class community; and I think it WAS unquestionable that homosexuality WAS seen as irredeemably evil; at best, a source of shame. But I emphasize the WAS's because it seems to me that these paradigms have changed completely over my lifetime. Without getting into it, I speak from personal experience here.


Hmmm. Well, from friends, acquaintances and relatives living in small farming communities today, what I can say is is that playing Star Wars medleys on the trombone in marching band during half time because you are too small to be a linebacker anyway is OK. Tinkling out Haydn sonatas on your grandmother's spinet is definitely NOT OK and is GAY.

Top
#2032240 - 02/13/13 02:10 AM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: theJourney]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6287
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: theJourney

Originally Posted By: Tim Adrianson
Just to maintain continuity in this thread, I think it WAS unquestionable that, here in the US, classical music WAS seen as the province of homosexuals by a great contingent of the middle-class community; and I think it WAS unquestionable that homosexuality WAS seen as irredeemably evil; at best, a source of shame. But I emphasize the WAS's because it seems to me that these paradigms have changed completely over my lifetime. Without getting into it, I speak from personal experience here.


Hmmm. Well, from friends, acquaintances and relatives living in small farming communities today, what I can say is is that playing Star Wars medleys on the trombone in marching band during half time because you are too small to be a linebacker anyway is OK. Tinkling out Haydn sonatas on your grandmother's spinet is definitely NOT OK and is GAY.


It certainly was MORE THAN OK and not considered GAY back when I taught piano at a Nebraska college in the 1970's to scores of small town farm kids who performed in the marching band in addition to tinkling the ivories. Many of them went back to their small communities and enjoyed successful careers as school music teachers. Perhaps the residents of Nebraska are more enlightened than those of other mid-western states. grin
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2032251 - 02/13/13 03:16 AM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: carey]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: carey
It certainly was MORE THAN OK and not considered GAY back when I taught piano at a Nebraska college in the 1970's to scores of small town farm kids who performed in the marching band in addition to tinkling the ivories. Many of them went back to their small communities and enjoyed successful careers as school music teachers. Perhaps the residents of Nebraska are more enlightened than those of other mid-western states. grin



My impression was always that Iowa and Minnesota were more progressive than Nebraska....and all kids were above average....

Well, you don't say how many of those budding pianists were girls versus how many were straight boys versus something more ambiguous....

Aren't near as many decent music teacher jobs these days what with school district consolidations, elimination of music teaching in curricula, use of temps and state-employee and national teacher union bashing, etc. etc....some of the same concerns as mentioned by CWPiano are in play here as well...

One explanation could be that the piano has even less acceptance today than in the 1970's in many of these communities where during the past 40 years five hours of passive television per day and computer games and social media gossiping have taken over from community activities. School sports have been elevated to an even more exalted position above everything else, including academics...if you can't hit it, throw it, kick it, bounce it or sink it ( or smoke it, sniff it, snort it or swallow it ) then for too many rural boys it is not important...

My impression is that the word " gay " is also devolving to refer to something else than (exclusively) " homosexual ". "That is so gay!" seems to be slang for "not socially desirable, different"

Top
#2032254 - 02/13/13 03:27 AM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: theJourney]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Why ... just why have people been saying classical music is dying? That same garbage has been said for the past 70 years. It hasn't happened yet, and it won't happen.

It's people who really believe that bullshit who are contributing nothing but gloomy and untrue words. Instead, do something about it. Produce good quality music, play outreach concerts. Something. Stop dumbing down audiences and calling classical music elitist. What good does that do?


Postivism and Optimism are one thing. But history, reality, current trends and the facts are ignored or manipulated at risk of our own peril.

The factual history of the 1000 years of Western classical music is that it was and is created by and for the elites; the history of the creation, sponsorship, patronage and usage of classical music is in fact littered with often oppressive, unenlightened, anti-social elites.

Much of the classical music that was being commissioned (e.g. operas of John Adams) in the giddy 80's and 90's of the previous century, those years of gross materialism and crass commercialism, was also being paid for by modern day robber barons (venture capitalists) desperately wanting to depict themselves as actually being humane and listened to by affluent audiences.

Any art form that in reality requires 10 years of carefully cultivated attention or study to really appreciate rather than just attending $200 a head concerts in order to " see and be seen " with the right crowds and to sleep through, catching up unobtrusively on nap time after a hard day's work is certainly elitist from the point of view of your average citizen who mostly listens to Sky Radio to and from work on their daily commute and who doens't have $200 to their name at the end of each month.


I'm sorry, but there's a lot of blah blah blah in there that simply holds no water. You've swallowed the pill wholly, Journey. As a result, you're part of the problem.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#2032256 - 02/13/13 03:33 AM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: stores]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Why ... just why have people been saying classical music is dying? That same garbage has been said for the past 70 years. It hasn't happened yet, and it won't happen.

It's people who really believe that bullshit who are contributing nothing but gloomy and untrue words. Instead, do something about it. Produce good quality music, play outreach concerts. Something. Stop dumbing down audiences and calling classical music elitist. What good does that do?


Postivism and Optimism are one thing. But history, reality, current trends and the facts are ignored or manipulated at risk of our own peril.

The factual history of the 1000 years of Western classical music is that it was and is created by and for the elites; the history of the creation, sponsorship, patronage and usage of classical music is in fact littered with often oppressive, unenlightened, anti-social elites.

Much of the classical music that was being commissioned (e.g. operas of John Adams) in the giddy 80's and 90's of the previous century, those years of gross materialism and crass commercialism, was also being paid for by modern day robber barons (venture capitalists) desperately wanting to depict themselves as actually being humane and listened to by affluent audiences.

Any art form that in reality requires 10 years of carefully cultivated attention or study to really appreciate rather than just attending $200 a head concerts in order to " see and be seen " with the right crowds and to sleep through, catching up unobtrusively on nap time after a hard day's work is certainly elitist from the point of view of your average citizen who mostly listens to Sky Radio to and from work on their daily commute and who doens't have $200 to their name at the end of each month.


I'm sorry, but there's a lot of blah blah blah in there that simply holds no water. You've swallowed the pill wholly, Journey. As a result, you're part of the problem.


Au contraire. I would say that knowledge makes us more capable of shaping the future. After all, "Those who do not know history are condemned to repeat it." -- Edmund Burke

Top
#2032257 - 02/13/13 03:45 AM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: theJourney]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Why ... just why have people been saying classical music is dying? That same garbage has been said for the past 70 years. It hasn't happened yet, and it won't happen.

It's people who really believe that bullshit who are contributing nothing but gloomy and untrue words. Instead, do something about it. Produce good quality music, play outreach concerts. Something. Stop dumbing down audiences and calling classical music elitist. What good does that do?


Postivism and Optimism are one thing. But history, reality, current trends and the facts are ignored or manipulated at risk of our own peril.

The factual history of the 1000 years of Western classical music is that it was and is created by and for the elites; the history of the creation, sponsorship, patronage and usage of classical music is in fact littered with often oppressive, unenlightened, anti-social elites.

Much of the classical music that was being commissioned (e.g. operas of John Adams) in the giddy 80's and 90's of the previous century, those years of gross materialism and crass commercialism, was also being paid for by modern day robber barons (venture capitalists) desperately wanting to depict themselves as actually being humane and listened to by affluent audiences.

Any art form that in reality requires 10 years of carefully cultivated attention or study to really appreciate rather than just attending $200 a head concerts in order to " see and be seen " with the right crowds and to sleep through, catching up unobtrusively on nap time after a hard day's work is certainly elitist from the point of view of your average citizen who mostly listens to Sky Radio to and from work on their daily commute and who doens't have $200 to their name at the end of each month.


I'm sorry, but there's a lot of blah blah blah in there that simply holds no water. You've swallowed the pill wholly, Journey. As a result, you're part of the problem.


Au contraire. I would say that knowledge makes us more capable of shaping the future. After all, "Those who do not know history are condemned to repeat it." -- Edmund Burke



You are quite correct about knowledge, however, this sentence... "The factual history of the 1000 years of Western classical music is that it was and is created by and for the elites"... should stop every reader and make them question your "knowledge". I'll not reply further. I no longer debate on this forum (have neither the time nor the interest), but when I see something that's wrong then I will say so.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#2032258 - 02/13/13 03:50 AM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: stores]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: stores
You are quite correct about knowledge, however, this sentence... "The factual history of the 1000 years of Western classical music is that it was and is created by and for the elites"... should stop every reader and make them question your "knowledge". I'll not reply further. I no longer debate on this forum (have neither the time nor the interest), but when I see something that's wrong then I will say so.


You might want to read a good text on the History of Western Music. Richard Taruskin's The Oxford History of Western Music would be a good start.

Stating that it is your opinion that something is wrong while hastily pre-announcing that it is your intention to " hit and run " on the thread without explaining yourself is not the same thing as providing evidence or cogent arguments for why you believe that something is wrong.

Top
#2032364 - 02/13/13 09:34 AM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: theJourney]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: theJourney


Postivism and Optimism are one thing. But history, reality, current trends and the facts are ignored or manipulated at risk of our own peril.

The factual history of the 1000 years of Western classical music is that it was and is created by and for the elites; the history of the creation, sponsorship, patronage and usage of classical music is in fact littered with often oppressive, unenlightened, anti-social elites.

Much of the classical music that was being commissioned (e.g. operas of John Adams) in the giddy 80's and 90's of the previous century, those years of gross materialism and crass commercialism, was also being paid for by modern day robber barons (venture capitalists) desperately wanting to depict themselves as actually being humane and listened to by affluent audiences.

Any art form that in reality requires 10 years of carefully cultivated attention or study to really appreciate rather than just attending $200 a head concerts in order to " see and be seen " with the right crowds and to sleep through, catching up unobtrusively on nap time after a hard day's work is certainly elitist from the point of view of your average citizen who mostly listens to Sky Radio to and from work on their daily commute and who doens't have $200 to their name at the end of each month.


I'm sorry, but what was 1,000 years ago was 1,000 years ago. Sure, it may have been created for the "elites" back then, but some things have changed by now wouldn't you say? Are all of us elite? I live in a basement, for god's sake, with 3 other people, can't afford a car or to own a piano. Thank god I have full scholarship, otherwise I wouldn't be able to go to school either. I try to play somewhat decently... classical music. I don't own any designer clothes. The most expensive thing I own is probably my leather jacket. Am I elite? If so, that's a whole new definition for me, hahaha!

It requites 10 years of careful study or you won't enjoy it? How can you not see what's wrong with that statement? I've played for SO many audiences without a classical background who absolutely LOVED the concerts. And love going to concerts. There are a lot of things being done now, for audiences to have a more meaningful musical experience at concerts. Talking, short examples from the piece, etc. Not even mentioning the "light classics" or "pop's concerts", where they play a movement of something or only play Gershwin.................................

I agree that yes, sometimes people only go to be seen there and for a chance to wear that prada dress, and probably don't enjoy the concert at all, but it's not always like that. I played concerts in Europe that were sold out, and for some of them I can't even remember seeing anyone past 60. In North America, too - there are a lot of music lovers, and they don't have to fit into your two stereotypical categories - either filthy rich or with extensive musical background.

As a stereotype, yes it's there.. no one can argue with that. But there are stuffy, elitist people in every field. So what?
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2032371 - 02/13/13 09:44 AM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: theJourney]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6287
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: theJourney

My impression is that the word " gay " is also devolving to refer to something else than (exclusively) " homosexual ". "That is so gay!" seems to be slang for "not socially desirable, different"


Well - if so - then that's an entirely different discussion.
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2032401 - 02/13/13 10:41 AM Re: The piano and homosexuality [Re: theJourney]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13774
Loc: Iowa City, IA
And a reading of Taruskin (or Grout, or any other music history text) will reveal that in various eras, music was created:

For the church.
For the court.
For the people.

In fact, that last category is rather large and doesn't cater to elites. For example:

The public Bach/Abel subscription concerts in England.

The choral tradition championed by Handel, Mendelssohn, and Brahms.

The enormous amount of music written by 19th century composers for amateur musicians (including Schumann and Mendelssohn, as well as lesser-known composers like Kirchner, Gurlitt, Turk, Gade, Heller, etc...) All of this in response to the rise of the middle class in the wake of the French revolution and the access to instruments made less expensive by better manufacturing techniques as a part of the industrial revolution.

As for music being made "by" the elites, some of the greatest did not come from elite stock. Beethoven and Brahms come to mind. Even Schoenberg came from a rather humble family.

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: stores
You are quite correct about knowledge, however, this sentence... "The factual history of the 1000 years of Western classical music is that it was and is created by and for the elites"... should stop every reader and make them question your "knowledge". I'll not reply further. I no longer debate on this forum (have neither the time nor the interest), but when I see something that's wrong then I will say so.


You might want to read a good text on the History of Western Music. Richard Taruskin's The Oxford History of Western Music would be a good start.

Stating that it is your opinion that something is wrong while hastily pre-announcing that it is your intention to " hit and run " on the thread without explaining yourself is not the same thing as providing evidence or cogent arguments for why you believe that something is wrong.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

Top
Page 8 of 14 < 1 2 ... 6 7 8 9 10 ... 13 14 >

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
156 registered (accordeur, aesop, 36251, *windowlicker*, 47 invisible), 1822 Guests and 24 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75920 Members
42 Forums
156889 Topics
2305232 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Pierre-Laurent Aimard Ticket for sale
by Fugue14
08/23/14 01:18 PM
A New Piano Brand is Coming
by Steve Cohen
08/23/14 12:21 PM
YAMAHA SILENT PIANO HQ 300 SX - Information please!
by ernani
08/23/14 10:52 AM
CA95 and HP-508
by Alpiano
08/23/14 09:47 AM
Help - kawai rx2-c conservatory limited edition
by KungPaoPanda
08/23/14 08:53 AM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission